Possible Mechanism for Seachem Prime Detoxification of Ammonia

[Garf]

This is very interesting. I suppose they mean 0.0499 ppm NH3. At pH - 8 0.0499 ppm NH3 correspond to a total ammonia off 1.102 ppm at 35 psu and 25 degree C

Calculator from Hamza´s reef

​

pH 8.1

​

pH 8.2

​

Please @MnFish1 confirm that the 0.0499 limit is true and that it is NH3 concentration. NH3-N concentrations does not change it to much however - around 18 % more total ammonia (NH3+NH4)

if this is true - it will means that Seneye by themself says that you can´t trust their equipment and that it can damage their equipment if your total ammonia is over 0.7 - 1.1 ppm in normal aquarium pH (8.2 - 8.0) Most of the famous work threads with ammonia and Seneye monitoring has been started at total ammonia levels over 2 ppm

Sincerely Lasse

Would be interested to know if it’s a similar mechanism with the strange pH readings in some units, or not.

 

[Garf]

From posts here the seneye is run, then when a new slide is fitted some people here advise calibrating the unit down to the previous readings, from the old slide. In fact I remember someone saying it is vital that this aimless calibration is undertaken. According to seneye this is a mistake;

Is my seneye+ slide damaged - Seneye

Got a bad PH or NH3 reading on your seneye+ slide them maybe its damaged. Please read this to learn more...

answers.seneye.com

If oxidisers are damaging your slide, your readings for NH3 may fall throughout a slide's lifetime and then jump back up again when a new slide is fitted.

As is relying on the units low readings as the slide ages, it seems.

 

[MnFish1]

This is very interesting. I suppose they mean 0.0499 ppm NH3. At pH - 8 0.0499 ppm NH3 correspond to a total ammonia off 1.102 ppm at 35 psu and 25 degree C

Calculator from Hamza´s reef

​

pH 8.1

​

pH 8.2

​

Please @MnFish1 confirm that the 0.0499 limit is true and that it is NH3 concentration. NH3-N concentrations does not change it to much however - around 18 % more total ammonia (NH3+NH4)

if this is true - it will means that Seneye by themself says that you can´t trust their equipment and that it can damage their equipment if your total ammonia is over 0.7 - 1.1 ppm in normal aquarium pH (8.2 - 8.0) Most of the famous work threads with ammonia and Seneye monitoring has been started at total ammonia levels over 2 ppm

If it is 0.499 instead for 0.0499 - the critical total ammonia will be around 7.3 at pH 8.2

Sincerely Lasse

Hi - I will check with them

 

[MnFish1]

This is very interesting. I suppose they mean 0.0499 ppm NH3. At pH - 8 0.0499 ppm NH3 correspond to a total ammonia off 1.102 ppm at 35 psu and 25 degree C

Calculator from Hamza´s reef

​

pH 8.1

​

pH 8.2

​

Please @MnFish1 confirm that the 0.0499 limit is true and that it is NH3 concentration. NH3-N concentrations does not change it to much however - around 18 % more total ammonia (NH3+NH4)

if this is true - it will means that Seneye by themself says that you can´t trust their equipment and that it can damage their equipment if your total ammonia is over 0.7 - 1.1 ppm in normal aquarium pH (8.2 - 8.0) Most of the famous work threads with ammonia and Seneye monitoring has been started at total ammonia levels over 2 ppm

If it is 0.499 instead for 0.0499 - the critical total ammonia will be around 7.3 at pH 8.2

Sincerely Lasse

Just to be clear - you MAY be correct I will have to call Seneye again (just tried - they are closed - as its after their business hours en England). In re-reading what I wrote - I'm fairly sure thats what the person 'said' - But - common sense would suggest that she might have meant 0.49 ppm Free ammonia . I will try to get the answer tomorrow. But - I also cannot completely remember the context of the question I asked - i.e. Seneye is usually used with levels of ammonia that are very low - in a tank. And she might have said that prolonged high levels of ammonia (like in an experiment) - may damage the slide (i.e. if you kept adding 1 ppm TOTAL ammonia to a tank per day - the slide will wear out faster than if it was in the typical range for a tank. The implication she gave was the same as on the website - which is that corrosive chemicals (like the amount of chlorine or chloramine in tap water) - can damage the slide.

 

[Lasse]

Just to be clear - you MAY be correct I will have to call Seneye again (just tried - they are closed - as its after their business hours en England). In re-reading what I wrote - I'm fairly sure thats what the person 'said' - But - common sense would suggest that she might have meant 0.49 ppm Free ammonia . I will try to get the answer tomorrow. But - I also cannot completely remember the context of the question I asked - i.e. Seneye is usually used with levels of ammonia that are very low - in a tank. And she might have said that prolonged high levels of ammonia (like in an experiment) - may damage the slide (i.e. if you kept adding 1 ppm TOTAL ammonia to a tank per day - the slide will wear out faster than if it was in the typical range for a tank. The implication she gave was the same as on the website - which is that corrosive chemicals (like the amount of chlorine or chloramine in tap water) - can damage the slide.

Yes - try to clear this out - it is very important as I see it - both for understanding when you can use Seneye and to be fair to the company. If your 0.0499 is true - it makes it worthless to use during a start up with "dose high amount of ammonia" methods

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dan_P]

This is very interesting. I suppose they mean 0.0499 ppm NH3. At pH - 8 0.0499 ppm NH3 correspond to a total ammonia off 1.102 ppm at 35 psu and 25 degree C

Calculator from Hamza´s reef

​

pH 8.1

​

pH 8.2

​

Please @MnFish1 confirm that the 0.0499 limit is true and that it is NH3 concentration. NH3-N concentrations does not change it to much however - around 18 % more total ammonia (NH3+NH4)

if this is true - it will means that Seneye by themself says that you can´t trust their equipment and that it can damage their equipment if your total ammonia is over 0.7 - 1.1 ppm in normal aquarium pH (8.2 - 8.0) Most of the famous work threads with ammonia and Seneye monitoring has been started at total ammonia levels over 2 ppm

If it is 0.499 instead for 0.0499 - the critical total ammonia will be around 7.3 at pH 8.2

Sincerely Lasse

I typically work in the aquarium relevant total ammonia concentrations of 0.5 ppm and under. I have three new Seneye slides. I will test one at high ammonia concentration to clarify what ”damage” means. I did notice that above 0.02 ppm free ammonia that the Seneye calibration curve changes. I also observed that the Seachem Ammonia Alert did have a raised baseline (stayed blue) because of extended exposure to free ammonia.

 

[DrZoidburg]

In regard to seneye like I say other place. Bacteria bottles purposefully fed with sulfur species, and others(thread op said smelled like rotten eggs)...etc seneye error. Prime with arguable sulfur species...error...

 

[MnFish1]

I typically work in the aquarium relevant total ammonia concentrations of 0.5 ppm and under. I have three new Seneye slides. I will test one at high ammonia concentration to clarify what ”damage” means. I did notice that above 0.02 ppm free ammonia that the Seneye calibration curve changes. I also observed that the Seachem Ammonia Alert did have a raised baseline (stayed blue) because of extended exposure to free ammonia.

My recollection (it was a while ago) - was that Seneye slides perform 'best' in the range typical for an aquarium. Though - obviously they can measure up to .5 ppm Free ammonia. I left a message with Seneye tech support as to when/how slides can be affected (ie.. what level of ammonia). The point being if you're doing an experiment and you start with 3 ppm total Ammonia - could that make the Seneye less accurate - if that concentration were held for 'days'. But I was talking on the phone - and I may have misheard or mistyped - whether it was 0.049 ppm or 0.5 ppm (free ammonia)

 

[MnFish1]

I typically work in the aquarium relevant total ammonia concentrations of 0.5 ppm and under. I have three new Seneye slides. I will test one at high ammonia concentration to clarify what ”damage” means. I did notice that above 0.02 ppm free ammonia that the Seneye calibration curve changes. I also observed that the Seachem Ammonia Alert did have a raised baseline (stayed blue) because of extended exposure to free ammonia.

I got the answer - for @Lasse also:

The questions I asked - 1. is there a level that can 'damage' a seneye slide and 2. Can you let me know the precision/accuracy of a Seneye.

Here are the answers:

1. " an over-scale (0.5ppm) free ammonia in the water might impact the time to react or bleach the slide so it will not read 0 nh3 in an ammonia-free solution"
2. "We do not have an absolute figure as it depends on the concentration/flow and temperature."

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

2. "We do not have an absolute figure as it depends on the concentration/flow and temperature."

Easy nonanswer.

Giving an example at some flow and temp would be a lot more useful. But maybe its not something they want people to know. lol

 

[MnFish1]

Easy nonanswer.

Giving an example at some flow and temp would be a lot more useful. But maybe its not something they want people to know. lol

I asked a follow-up question as well. But - my guess is that it would be difficult to put all of that out there given the huge possible variation (especially with flow) - for example in a tank where 2 gyres are operating, back and forth - etc etc

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I asked a follow-up question as well. But - my guess is that it would be difficult to put all of that out there given the huge possible variation (especially with flow) - for example in a tank where 2 gyres are operating, back and forth - etc etc

Personally, I do not even believe the answer depends on flow if ammonia is stable. How could it?

The response time to up or down changes certainly could depend on flow.

 

[Lasse]

I got the answer - for @Lasse also:

The questions I asked - 1. is there a level that can 'damage' a seneye slide and 2. Can you let me know the precision/accuracy of a Seneye.

Here are the answers:

1. " an over-scale (0.5ppm) free ammonia in the water might impact the time to react or bleach the slide so it will not read 0 nh3 in an ammonia-free solution"
2. "We do not have an absolute figure as it depends on the concentration/flow and temperature."

Thanks. It was important to clarify this - because had it been 0.0499 - it would be useless in high ammonia starts methods.

However - I think that people that use Seneye as a tool must be aware of these 0.5 ppm free ammonia. If we with help of the calculator here - back calculate what it means - we get this chart that shows which total ammonia levels you should not exceed at different pH and temperatures unless 0.5 ppm NH3 limit is to be violated and the disk is at risk of being damaged

It seems on me that Seneye is not that very good tool some people says it is when aquarium is started with high ammonia concentrations methods. In many treads I have seen start ammonia concentrations around 6-7 ppm total ammonia - already at pH 8.2 - the disk seems to have a high risk to be damaged at all the three temperatures.

Till this comes that either accuracy and precision are published and the most important thing - LOD (Limit of detection) is not communicated. Reports about very low results and differences must therefore be taken with a whole barrel of salt- IMO

Sincerely Lasse

 

[LRT]

Realisticly the only way I use seneye in application of setting up new tank is with light feedings we discussed elsewhere. More as a tool to guage what ammonia is doing once its recorded and trends back down to levels it can't record any longer. It is good with detecting low concentrations(whatever those may be) back down to levels it can no longer detect. Good thing is you can confirm 0(if that's even possible) levels with cheap api kit.

 

[Lasse]

Realisticly the only way I use seneye in application of setting up new tank is with light feedings we discussed elsewhere. More as a tool to guage what ammonia is doing once its recorded and trends back down to levels it can't record any longer. It is good with detecting low concentrations(whatever those may be) back down to levels it can no longer detect. Good thing is you can confirm 0(if that's even possible) levels with cheap api kit.

It is as worthless as API if not accuracy, precision and LOD is not defined or communicated. As I have said before in many threads - to believe that a product in the range of around $ 200 should be able to detect even below 0.01 ppm free ammonia is insane - IMO

Sincerely Lasse

 

[LRT]

It is as worthless as API if not accuracy, precision and LOD is not defined or communicated. As I have said before in many threads - to believe that a product in the range of around $ 200 should be able to detect even below 0.01 ppm free ammonia is insane - IMO

Sincerely Lasse

Can't say I disagree with that assessment ive been pretty vocal about issues ive had with my device. I got pretty lucky with the device I got as far as par. Its pretty close or a little closer than brs investigates found.

 

[brandon429]

And on the api kit, merely the movement down is required not a hard yellow zero. Motion, in the presence of circulation and active surface area of sufficient placement, trends to safe zone

fast

it doesn’t stick or hover after dropping, barely above safe, that’s every false stall post.

This accounts for variable X that makes api not report hard yellow zero for a fair degree of testers, those who upload pics of it ran on running reefs etc

 

[Dan_P]

Thanks. It was important to clarify this - because had it been 0.0499 - it would be useless in high ammonia starts methods.

However - I think that people that use Seneye as a tool must be aware of these 0.5 ppm free ammonia. If we with help of the calculator here - back calculate what it means - we get this chart that shows which total ammonia levels you should not exceed at different pH and temperatures unless 0.5 ppm NH3 limit is to be violated and the disk is at risk of being damaged

It seems on me that Seneye is not that very good tool some people says it is when aquarium is started with high ammonia concentrations methods. In many treads I have seen start ammonia concentrations around 6-7 ppm total ammonia - already at pH 8.2 - the disk seems to have a high risk to be damaged at all the three temperatures.

Till this comes that either accuracy and precision are published and the most important thing - LOD (Limit of detection) is not communicated. Reports about very low results and differences must therefore be taken with a whole barrel of salt- IMO

Sincerely Lasse

I have some answers. The LOD is probably in the single digit ppb. I examined three slides and they gave accurate measurements between 0.004 and 020 ppb. By accurate I mean based on temperature, pH and total ammonia, the calculated and Seneye reading agreed. The Seneye can detect NH3 below 0.004 ppb but the number is not correct. The same for much above 0.02 ppm.

At for the kinetics, the film responds quite quickly to changes in free ammonia concentrations, minutes, but when I did my calibration work, I let the Seneye film equilibrate 20 minutes.

 

[LRT]

And on the api kit, merely the movement down is required not a hard yellow zero. Motion, in the presence of circulation and active surface area of sufficient placement, trends to safe zone

fast

it doesn’t stick or hover after dropping, barely above safe, that’s every false stall post.

This accounts for variable X that makes api not report hard yellow zero for a fair degree of testers, those who upload pics of it ran on running reefs etc

At super low levels with light measured feedings its not hard to find api zeroes. Im talking quarter to half cube of mysis that are pretty much consumed when it hits floor.

 

[Dan_P]

Personally, I do not even believe the answer depends on flow if ammonia is stable. How could it?

The response time to up or down changes certainly could depend on flow.

The Seneye film responds quite quickly to changes in free ammonia concentrations, within a minute and then 5-20 minutes to equilibrate. Decreasing ammonia levels seemed a little slower than an increasing level of ammonia, but not to the extent that it would screw up cycling an aquarium. My experiments were done in a magnetically stirred beaker. I can imagine that if the Seneye device was located in stagnant water, the detection of changes in free ammonia would be delayed.