Possible Mechanism for Seachem Prime Detoxification of Ammonia

[LRT]

I have some answers. The LOD is probably in the single digit ppb. I examined three slides and they gave accurate measurements between 0.004 and 020 ppb. By accurate I mean based on temperature, pH and total ammonia, the calculated and Seneye reading agreed. The Seneye can detect NH3 below 0.004 ppb but the number is not correct. The same for much above 0.02 ppm.

At for the kinetics, the film responds quite quickly to changes in free ammonia concentrations, minutes, but when I did my calibration work, I let the Seneye film equilibrate 20 minutes.

Dan can you elaborate on this a little?
How do we equate and cross refference ppb to ppm our color coded kits read?
How many ppm is .004 ppb? That just broke my brain.

 

[Lasse]

@Dan_P Take a read of this and you will understand my concerns . Especially the review I linked to. I know you will understand this.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

The Seneye can detect NH3 below 0.004 ppb but the number is not correct. The same for much above 0.02 ppm.

I´ll think you this is not correct . It should be 0.004 ppm (=4 ppb) .

0.02 ppm = 20 ppb

if you really believe in 0.004 ppb - you are in the nano world

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dan_P]

At super low levels with light measured feedings its not hard to find api zeroes. Im talking quarter to half cube of mysis that are pretty much consumed when it hits floor.

Dan can you elaborate on this a little?
How do we equate and cross refference ppb to ppm our color coded kits read?
How many ppm is .004 ppb? That just broke my brain.

OOPS! Should be 0.004 ppm and I didn’t even start dosing wine yet

0.25 ppm on the API kit is 250 ppb total ammonia. That means about 25 ppb or 0.025 ppm free ammonia depending on temperature and pH.

Sorry about the screw up and confusion.

 

[Dan_P]

I´ll think you this is not correct . It should be 0.004 ppm (=4 ppb) .

0.02 ppm = 20 ppb

if you really believe in 0.004 ppb - you are in the nano world

Sincerely Lasse

You are 100% correct. My brain did temporarily skip into nano world.

 

[Lasse]

0.25 ppm on the API kit is 250 ppb total ammonia. That means about 25 ppb or 0.025 ppm free ammonia depending on temperature and pH.

Use this

Sincerely Lasse

 

[LRT]

OOPS! Should be 0.004 ppm and I didn’t even start dosing wine yet

0.25 ppm on the API kit is 250 ppb total ammonia. That means about 25 ppb or 0.025 ppm free ammonia depending on temperature and pH.

Sorry about the screw up and confusion.

No worries that really did break my brain. There's only so far my old brain will allow me to travel past the thousandths we have to work with on civil side of things. Definetely see your guys equations like alien speak its not even trying to understand hahaha

 

[Dan_P]

@Dan_P Take a read of this and you will understand my concerns . Especially the review I linked to. I know you will understand this.

Sincerely Lasse

Nice review!

The Seneye film probably can detect free NH3 in the single digit ppb range but not quantitate it. LOQ vs LOD, right? The Seneye film and the calibrated device are able to indicate a change when the free ammonia is above 0.001 , maybe, but the number it shows does not reflect the true value until 0.004 or greater. This is what I saw with three films.

Also, every analytical device needs to be calibrated before you believe the numbers. Otherwise, the device is producing at best approximate values.

 

[LRT]

Nice review!

The Seneye film probably can detect free NH3 in the single digit ppb range but not quantitate it. LOQ vs LOD, right? The Seneye film and the calibrated device are able to indicate a change when the free ammonia is above 0.001 , maybe, but the number it shows does not reflect the true value until 0.004 or greater. This is what I saw with three films.

Also, every analytical device needs to be calibrated before you believe the numbers. Otherwise, the device is producing at best approximate values.

Incredible Dan thanks for this!
Apologize if you already mentioned it but what was other calibrated device you used to cross refference?

 

[Dan_P]

Incredible Dan thanks for this!
Apologize if you already mentioned it but what was other calibrated device you used to cross refference?

My reference was Hach’s Mixed Parameter reference standard, so, I knew the total ammonia content of my solutions and I used a calibrated Hanna Edge pH meter with a temperature measuring pH electrode. I than calculated the free ammonia concentration for 35 ppt Instant Ocean from the total ammonia, pH and temperature. Sound OK?

 

[Lasse]

The Seneye film probably can detect free NH3 in the single digit ppb range but not quantitate it. LOQ vs LOD

As I see it the resolution is 0.001 and that's another thing but how many decimals you set on a device is up to the constructor and have nothing with LOD to do. It just the chrome on old Cadillacs. Look nice - nothing to do with the way it does the job.

The nasty truth that the attached review shows is that if Seney's statement is true - they have designed a device that costs less than $ 200 and that competes with advanced scientific instruments to measure and monitor NH3. And it also gives pH, temp and PAR for that price. One thing I have learned through life is that most cases if something sounds too good to be true - then it is a false statement

My reference was Hach’s Mixed Parameter reference standard, so, I knew the total ammonia content of my solutions and I used a calibrated Hanna Edge pH meter with a temperature measuring pH electrode. I than calculated the free ammonia concentration for 35 ppt Instant Ocean from the total ammonia, pH and temperature. Sound OK?

A question about the standard - was it mixed in 35 psu saltwater or RODI?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[LRT]

My reference was Hach’s Mixed Parameter reference standard, so, I knew the total ammonia content of my solutions and I used a calibrated Hanna Edge pH meter with a temperature measuring pH electrode. I than calculated the free ammonia concentration for 35 ppt Instant Ocean from the total ammonia, pH and temperature. Sound OK?

Yes I love it man thank you!

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks. It was important to clarify this - because had it been 0.0499 - it would be useless in high ammonia starts methods.

However - I think that people that use Seneye as a tool must be aware of these 0.5 ppm free ammonia. If we with help of the calculator here - back calculate what it means - we get this chart that shows which total ammonia levels you should not exceed at different pH and temperatures unless 0.5 ppm NH3 limit is to be violated and the disk is at risk of being damaged

It seems on me that Seneye is not that very good tool some people says it is when aquarium is started with high ammonia concentrations methods. In many treads I have seen start ammonia concentrations around 6-7 ppm total ammonia - already at pH 8.2 - the disk seems to have a high risk to be damaged at all the three temperatures.

Till this comes that either accuracy and precision are published and the most important thing - LOD (Limit of detection) is not communicated. Reports about very low results and differences must therefore be taken with a whole barrel of salt- IMO

Sincerely Lasse

I have another question into them as to this. to specifically answer. (a third question) - I will not post the answer to the second - because while it kind of answered the question - not completely - they did repeat that the Seneye works best in 'aquarium-level' free ammonia levels - near zero - and in their limits 0-.5 ppm free ammonia. I appreciate that they are answering

 

[MnFish1]

Maybe - rather than try to 'prove' what the Seneye can measure - without a 'gold standard' - one should contact Seneye support. I do not think you can take a beaker experiment - and define these numbers - the accuracy and precision according to THEM is not available due to differences in flow, etc. Maybe its best to just believe the company?

 

[Dan_P]

As I see it the resolution is 0.001 and that's another thing but how many decimals you set on a device is up to the constructor and have nothing with LOD to do. It just the chrome on old Cadillacs. Look nice - nothing to do with the way it does the job.

The nasty truth that the attached review shows is that if Seney's statement is true - they have designed a device that costs less than $ 200 and that competes with advanced scientific instruments to measure and monitor NH3. And it also gives pH, temp and PAR for that price. One thing I have learned through life is that most cases if something sounds too good to be true - then it is a false statement



A question about the standard - was it mixed in 35 psu saltwater or RODI?

Sincerely Lasse

The standard was purchased from Hach and was added to 35 ppt IO.

About the resolution, I remember seeing only even numbers, multiples of 0.002 ppm. I think above 0.01 ppm. I didn’t investigate further.

 

[MnFish1]

@Dan_P BTW - thanks for going through this yourself as well - I didnt mean to critique what you were doing. !!!!!!!

 

[Lasse]

Maybe - rather than try to 'prove' what the Seneye can measure - without a 'gold standard' - one should contact Seneye support. I do not think you can take a beaker experiment - and define these numbers - the accuracy and precision according to THEM is not available due to differences in flow, etc. Maybe its best to just believe the company?

Remember the quote button @MnFish1 Some wise guy in another thread state that without that - you can´t know to whom you answer

Remember I´m from Gothenburg and strike like a cobra

Sincerely Lasse

 

[DrZoidburg]

So how does prime detoxify metals?

 

[Dan_P]

Maybe - rather than try to 'prove' what the Seneye can measure - without a 'gold standard' - one should contact Seneye support. I do not think you can take a beaker experiment - and define these numbers - the accuracy and precision according to THEM is not available due to differences in flow, etc. Maybe its best to just believe the company?

Nope, don’t agree.

 

[Lasse]

The standard was purchased from Hach and was added to 35 ppt IO.

As I understand - it is a liquid standard - did you dope this into a certain volume of 35 psu IO ? did you take a zero on the saltwater before the dope?

Sincerely Lasse