Pressure on False Claim Products

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For completeness sake, let’s assume Jack is correct and the proprietary base is important.

Either the hydroxide is minimal and the secret chemical in the base raises pH without raising alk.

Or

The hydroxide raises pH and the secret chemical depletes the alk rise from the hydroxide without impacting the pH.

I’m open to brainstorming any dissolved chemical additive that can do either of these things. I’m at a loss of how either is chemically possible, but I’d love to be proven wrong since that would give reefers a great new tool for dealing with low pH.

One technical way to accomplish #1 is to have a chemical that binds CO2 and for which the product is not titrated in an alkalinity test. I’m just not aware of any dissolved chemical that can do that.

Binding bicarbonate could have the desired effect of reducing alk and raising pH (exactly the opposite effect of dosing bicarbonate). But again, the product has to not be detected by an alk test.

Anyone have any wild ideas?

 

[Miami Reef]

Anyone have any wild ideas?

The only “wild” idea I have is looking at the reviews on Amazon

 

[Miami Reef]

Here’s another example:

Unfortunately I purchased this product before read this topic.

Well, I dosed 50 ml of Brightwell Boost Ph+ into my 250 litres tank which should raise my Ph about 0.1 without raising Alkalinity.

I checked Alk and Ph before and after dosing by my Alkatronic. Yellow mark is where I was dose Ph+.

Sadly, this product is total scam. Save your money, dont buy it.

 

[Steve2020]

Total alkalinity is best measured and interpreted in molar units, meq/L. Anything else is a conversion that assumes all of the alk came from some specific chemical, which of course it doesn't.

Let’s see what Jack says about starting pH.
It’s actually easier to raise pH with a smaller alk addition when the starting pH is lower.

Total alk is the only measure of buffering that is important here. Correct alk means correct buffering.

Thanks for the explanation Randy. I always wondered why we measure dKH vice TA ppm. In my younger days when we had a pool TA was always measured in ppm.

 

[Steve2020]

Here’s another example:

That is not a good example. That person dosed 50ml into a 66gal tank and it is probably not even 66gal total water volume. He dosed almost 4 times the recommended amount in one shot. Should of dosed 13.2ml initially. Now this is kind of baffling, you would think if it does actually raise Alk and you dose approx 4 times the recommended amount you would see a much higher Alk increase than what he saw.

 

[Miami Reef]

That is not a good example. That person dosed 50ml into a 66gal tank and it is probably not even 66gal total water volume. He dosed almost 4 times the recommended amount in one shot. Should have dosed 13.2ml initially. Now this is kind of baffling, you would think if it does actually raise Alk and you dose approx 4 times the recommended amount you would see a much higher Alk increase than what he saw.

I don’t really know the brightwell dosing recommendations, and I went straight to the chart on the bottom.

His pH hardly moved up though. His alk did go pretty high.

 

[Steve2020]

I don’t really know the brightwell dosing recommendations, and I went straight to the chart on the bottom.

His pH hardly moved up though. His alk did go pretty high.

Unfortunately we don't know when he dosed and when the measurement was taken after the dose. Somewhere between 0-45min I assume looking at his chart. Also .15dkh is close to the accuracy of the Alktronic which I think is .1dKH. Agree with the ph not going up much.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In our testing, we should keep track of the amount used and see how it relates to the recommended doses, but the important result is how much alk rises to get the size pH boost the product claims (at least 0.2 pH units). Getting results for both that are insignificant because the dose is low is not useful.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Maybe we should explore the idea of creating one, funded by individual membership. An dependant organisation run by independent hobbyists for hobbyists.

@Randy Holmes-Farley and the research members. Is there presently a way to donate to research members for selected research projects?

Always a nice idea until it is not. Politics, money, independence and bias are mutually exclusive concepts. Most of the "independent" testing organizations end up being part of the problem, in any market because they are run by humans, who have opinions and bias and money, egos and pandering are usually involved.

 

[Borat]

I filled out this support ticket at Aquavitro (I mistyped the name when I first sent it)

Can you clarify why you claim that the hydroxide in your Balance product does not boost alkalinity?

Of course hydroxide instantly provides alkalinity. No chemical additive can boost pH in seawater and not boost alkalinity. That's the basis for supplementing alkalinity with kalkwasser.

It is properly called a high pH alkalinity supplement, not anything else.

It's very simple:

their PH+ boosting mix contains atoms of sodium and anti-sodium hydroxide. Sodium atoms annihilate each other - thereby not affecting alkalinity.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It's very simple:

their PH+ boosting mix contains atoms of sodium and anti-sodium hydroxide. Sodium atoms annihilate each other - thereby not affecting alkalinity.

Definitely out of the box brainstorming. lol

 

[Borat]

It's very simple:

their PH+ boosting mix contains atoms of sodium and anti-sodium hydroxide. Sodium atoms annihilate each other - thereby not affecting alkalinity.

Sodium Hydroxide + CO2 -> Sodium Carbonate..
Sodium Carbonate + CO2 -> Sodium Bicarbonate...

Isn't it a very simple reaction for Brightwell Aquatics to figure out?

 

[MnFish1]

You’d think so. Brightwell warns not to add too much or alk will rise. Strange warning for a product that doesn’t impact alk.

I will eventually suggest it to them, but they may choose to add so little the do not see an alk (or pH )rise.

Actually - this was going to be my question - could it be that though it chemically raises alkalinity 'some' - that that some is not large enough to be significant. I.e. using stoichiometry, it's easy to see that a certain chemical reaction will increase or decrease something. But - lets say the alkalinity goes up from 8.1 -->8.3 - thats not a significant rise, Right?

 

[Wild1]

I love the idea, but I'm not sure that I'm smart enough to know which products are snake oil, and which products are not.

Agreed

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Actually - this was going to be my question - could it be that though it chemically raises alkalinity 'some' - that that some is not large enough to be significant. I.e. using stoichiometry, it's easy to see that a certain chemical reaction will increase or decrease something. But - lets say the alkalinity goes up from 8.1 -->8.3 - thats not a significant rise, Right?

I’d hate for this to end up as a debate of what is significant, but I don’t doubt it might go that route.

The expectation from dosing hydroxide from my experiments is about a 0.67 pH unit boost per 1.4 dKH. Extrapolated down, that gives a 0.4 dKH boost per 0.2 pH unit boost.

IMO, that is unacceptable for a product claiming no alk effect. If the Brightwell product only does what hydroxide does, then I will push Jack for a description change since he is adamant that the effect is not just hydroxide.

 

[MnFish1]

I’d hate for this to end up as a debate of what is significant, but I don’t doubt it might go that route.

The expectation from dosing hydroxide from my experiments is about a 0.67 pH unit boost per 1.4 dKH. Extrapolated down, that gives a 0.4 dKH boost per 0.2 pH unit boost.

IMO, that is unacceptable for a product claiming no alk effect. If the Brightwell product only does what hydroxide does, then I will push Jack for a description change since he is adamant that the effect is not just hydroxide.

Thanks - I was just wondering if the 'discussion point' the company could use is that the potential increase in alkalinity is smaller than the margins of error of the common hobby tests. I wasn't trying to debate what you or anyone else is saying. The issue is - if I can take repeated measurements of alkalinity using certain tests - and without doing anything, they can range within 0.4 dKH, It seems like that could be a defense. However, of course it would also work the other way to - if the alkalinity actually rises by 0.4 - that would mean that the measured alkalinity could be higher than a 0.4 rise - as well as lower.

 

[hexcolor reef]

The issue with most of the recommendations and mentions so far on this thread would be not easily measuring alk in “meq” and not “dkh” / dose in the PH booster products

For the average reefer that’s the issue. And possibly companies can go further with offering this information on websites with dosing recommendations

 

[danimal1211]

Anyone have any wild ideas?

Enough NH3 to equally bind bicarbonate. Of course that would probably kill all fish in the aquarium hence wild idea.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Enough NH3 to equally bind bicarbonate. Of course that would probably kill all fish in the aquarium hence wild idea.

I think the reaction between ammonia and bicarbonate would be an acid base reaction, leaving titratable carbonate:

NH3 + HCO3- —> NH4+ + CO3–

 

[BeanAnimal]

The issue with most of the recommendations and mentions so far on this thread would be not easily measuring alk in “meq” and not “dkh” / dose in the PH booster products

For the average reefer that’s the issue. And possibly companies can go further with offering this information on websites with dosing recommendations

huh?