Pressure on False Claim Products

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wouldn’t it be very easy for these companies to test their “theory” of pH+ not raising alkalinity? You can easily add some to saltwater and see the alk rise.

You’d think so. Brightwell warns not to add too much or alk will rise. Strange warning for a product that doesn’t impact alk.

I will eventually suggest it to them, but they may choose to add so little the do not see an alk (or pH )rise.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here’s what I would consider an appropriate manufacturer response:

I believe our products all function as we describe.

What makes you think they do not?

Or seeing my question with comments about why I say alk will rise,

Here’s why your analysis is incorrect.

Surprisingly to me , Seachem has so far taken that approach and Brightwell has not.

 

[Dan_P]

Wouldn’t it be very easy for these companies to test their “theory” of pH+ not raising alkalinity? You can easily add some to saltwater and see the alk rise.

Makes you wonder what the marketing discussion was that led to selling dilute drain cleaner for aquarium use, albeit with balanced K and Na.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, I have just proposed to Jack that we each do this experiment and I'm looking for volunteers to give it a whirl. He contends the proprietary base gives a different result than hydroxide alone, and I cannot resolve that without either knowing the secret ingredient(s) or just measuring it. I also told him that If I'm wrong that I will recant all of my comments about Boost pH +.

He has not yet agreed to the details but I took them from the product recommendations, including up to a 0.3 pH unit rise.

1. take some reef tank water, that is in the pH range that needs raising, say, pH 7.8 to 8.2, and has alkalinity in the range you suggest (7.7 to 10 dKH)
2. some artificial seawater that is in the pH range that needs raising, say, 7.8 to 8.2, and has alkalinity in the range you suggest (7.7 to 10 dKH)
3. Measure alkalinity of both samples
4. add boost pH + until the pH rises 0.3 pH units
5. Remeasure alkalinity

 

[KrisReef]

I’m ready to testify and win again in court if you need an expert witness. I have helped resolve the truth in both Jury and Civil courts and present the truth in a manner that will sink those tricky and complex “explanations” that lawyers bring into court to make their cases.

The truth will set you free.

Could help recover court costs and associated fees.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I’m ready to testify and win again in court if you need an expert witness. I have helped resolve the truth in both Jury and Civil courts and present the truth in a manner that will sink those tricky and complex “explanations” that lawyers bring into court to make their cases.

The truth will set you free.

Could help recover court costs and associated fees.

There won't be any court costs because Randy will win and the company will have to pay his fees

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, I have just proposed to Jack that we each do this experiment and I'm looking for volunteers to give it a whirl. He contends the proprietary base gives a different result than hydroxide alone, and I cannot resolve that without either knowing the secret ingredient(s) or just measuring it. I also told him that If I'm wrong that I will recant all of my comments about Boost pH +.

He has not yet agreed to the details but I took them from the product recommendations, including up to a 0.3 pH unit rise.

1. take some reef tank water, that is in the pH range that needs raising, say, pH 7.8 to 8.2, and has alkalinity in the range you suggest (7.7 to 10 dKH)
2. some artificial seawater that is in the pH range that needs raising, say, 7.8 to 8.2, and has alkalinity in the range you suggest (7.7 to 10 dKH)
3. Measure alkalinity of both samples
4. add boost pH + until the pH rises 0.3 pH units
5. Remeasure alkalinity

Would be interesting to also do the same with sodium hydroxide to directly evaluate the effect of the proprietary base.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Let’s put a testing thread in the testing forum

Experimental testing of Brightwell Boost pH +

This is the proposed experiment: take some reef tank water, that is in the pH range that needs raising, say, pH 7.8 to 8.2, and has alkalinity in the range you suggest (7.7 to 10 dKH) some artificial seawater that is in the pH range that needs raising, say, 7.8 to 8.2, and has alkalinity in...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[KrisReef]

There won't be any court costs because Randy will win and the company will have to pay his fees

I hope that is the case but if the legal system gets involved then the opportunity for mischief and fraud increases (like pH when you continue to add hydroxide). The champion is challenging fraudulent claims and the opponent has the legal right to continue the false argument in court where the presentation of evidence and carefully crafted arguments can be used to disqualify and discredit the truth.

The irony of being a great liar is that in court it can help with understanding how to clearly communicate the truth and help unclutter the facts and make one’s case less likely to fail when you are telling the truth.

The concept that “Justice is blind” isn’t really comforting to people who expect the truth to prevail.

“If the glove don’t fit then you must acquit.”

 

[Miami Reef]

OK, I have just proposed to Jack that we each do this experiment and I'm looking for volunteers to give it a whirl. He contends the proprietary base gives a different result than hydroxide alone, and I cannot resolve that without either knowing the secret ingredient(s) or just measuring it. I also told him that If I'm wrong that I will recant all of my comments about Boost pH +.

He has not yet agreed to the details but I took them from the product recommendations, including up to a 0.3 pH unit rise.

1. take some reef tank water, that is in the pH range that needs raising, say, pH 7.8 to 8.2, and has alkalinity in the range you suggest (7.7 to 10 dKH)
2. some artificial seawater that is in the pH range that needs raising, say, 7.8 to 8.2, and has alkalinity in the range you suggest (7.7 to 10 dKH)
3. Measure alkalinity of both samples
4. add boost pH + until the pH rises 0.3 pH units
5. Remeasure alkalinity

I ordered Brightwell pH+. It was my suggestion for us to do this experiment, so I’m going to put my money where my mouth is.

 

[Tony Thompson]

Yeah, unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a central organization that represents reefers. The industry is well represented with marketing to sell their products though. But as long as we keep buying the products, they will keep making them.

Maybe we should explore the idea of creating one, funded by individual membership. An dependant organisation run by independent hobbyists for hobbyists.

@Randy Holmes-Farley and the research members. Is there presently a way to donate to research members for selected research projects?

What is the practicality and likelihood of such an organisation being formed?


Objective, rigorous and systematic investigation between claim or theory and evidence to support or contradict either.

They are many good players in the Industry as a whole, however IME as both a hobbyists and trade (retired) I am of the impression there are some very dubious actors at play. Supporting those who show good practice, openness and clarity. whom are willing to supply evidence to support their claim and leave it up for review, may both encourage good practice and to a degree counter unfair advantage from those less honest traders.

 

[KrisReef]

Maybe we should explore the idea of creating one, funded by individual membership. An dependant organisation run by independent hobbyists for hobbyists.

@Randy Holmes-Farley and the research members. Is there presently a way to donate to research members for selected research projects?

What is the practicality and likelihood of such an organisation being formed?


Objective, rigorous and systematic investigation between claim or theory and evidence to support or contradict either.

They are many good players in the Industry as a whole, however IME as both a hobbyists and trade (retired) I am of the impression there are some very dubious actors at play. Supporting those who show good practice, openness and clarity. whom are willing to supply evidence to support their claim and leave it up for review, may both encourage good practice and to a degree counter unfair advantage from those less honest traders.

Sure, I m always accepting donations. Being an expert witness is expensive with travel and lodging costs…



Edit: I actually think what RHF has started here can work out on the cheap for everyone, both sides of the argument can potentially work out differences without any legal costs if it remains free of malicious intent?

Praying for that is not what an attorney would do, they tend to prey first.

 

[Tony Thompson]

Sure, I m always accepting donations. Being an expert witness is expensive with travel and lodging costs…



Edit: I actually think what RHF has started here can work out on the cheap for everyone, both sides of the argument can potentially work out differences without any legal costs if it remains free of malicious intent?

Praying for that is not what an attorney would do, they tend to prey first.

Just for clarity ,"expert witness" is neither something I am suggesting or promote. Expert witness is sometimes deployed by either the defence or prosecution, it is therefore commonly deemed Subjective not objective.

The intention of my suggestion is not to witch hunt, or name and shame, more to do with promoting good practice.

 

[Dan_P]

OK, I have just proposed to Jack that we each do this experiment and I'm looking for volunteers to give it a whirl. He contends the proprietary base gives a different result than hydroxide alone, and I cannot resolve that without either knowing the secret ingredient(s) or just measuring it. I also told him that If I'm wrong that I will recant all of my comments about Boost pH +.

He has not yet agreed to the details but I took them from the product recommendations, including up to a 0.3 pH unit rise.

1. take some reef tank water, that is in the pH range that needs raising, say, pH 7.8 to 8.2, and has alkalinity in the range you suggest (7.7 to 10 dKH)
2. some artificial seawater that is in the pH range that needs raising, say, 7.8 to 8.2, and has alkalinity in the range you suggest (7.7 to 10 dKH)
3. Measure alkalinity of both samples
4. add boost pH + until the pH rises 0.3 pH units
5. Remeasure alkalinity

Happy to help. I assume if pH or alkalinity is not in proper starting point, adjusting it with HCl is OK

Just to confirm, this is the product? I will order some tonight.

 

[Garf]

Wonder how much Borax and RODI is needed in a tank to raise the pH similarly, and what alkalinity increase results, if any?

Edit - Never mind, just read the rest of the thread, lol. Missed the hydroxide bit

 

[Steve2020]

Happy to help. I assume if pH or alkalinity is not in proper starting point, adjusting it with HCl is OK

Just to confirm, this is the product? I will order some tonight.

That is not the product in discussion. It is Boost PH+ that is in question.

 

[Garf]

Brightwell warns not to add too much or alk will rise.

Reduction of calcification perhaps. An increase in Alkalinity sounds a lot less toxic.

 

[Miami Reef]

That is not the product in discussion. It is Boost PH+ that is in question.

Thank you. I mistakenly ordered the other product. I cancelled it and ordered the Boost pH+.

 

[Steve2020]

Thank you. I mistakenly ordered the other product. I cancelled it and ordered the Boost pH+.

I was thinking about running this test also due to I have two 20gal and one 29gal tank that I used for observation and quarantine that have been cleaned out and not in use. After reading the technical documentation and instructions for use approx 7 times, I have come to the conclusion that there is to much room for error in interpretation for me to run the test accurately unless I can get some clarification from the vendor. It says that Alk must be between 7.5-10dKH and properly buffered ( not sure what they classify as properly buffered ) and an accurate test kit or calibrated meter is required. Test kits that most of us use are not accurate IMO. Hanna Alk tester can give you 2 different readings from the same water sample which has been proven. I now use the Red Sea Pro which has been pretty consistent but it is an eyeball interpretation so one person may say one value while another say's a different value. Most of us do not have a Hach or equivalent measuring device. PH meter IMO opinion would need to be lab grade and not the so called Neptune lab grade probe. PH pens and test kits are also not accurate in repeatability.
What is also confusing is in the technical data, it says it works with buffers and Alk products to increase ph to desirable levels 8.3,8.4 and 8.5. My interpretation of the instructions is this product is for people that already have a ph of 8.2 or higher which I think, but not sure, that you only use this product if you are at 8.2 or higher already and want to achieve what they call a desirable ph range of 8.4-8.5.
Also it says to dose 2ml/10gal, you can measure after 10min and dose 2ml more if needed and so on and no more than 10ml/day. It says that 2ml should increase ph by .1-.3 depending on CO2 levels at the tank which is why they want you to be at a 8.2 or higher stable value before using the product the way I interoperate it.

Question for you is why do we measure Alk in dKH and not TA in ppm? Does 1dKH=17.9ppm TA?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was thinking about running this test also due to I have two 20gal and one 29gal tank that I used for observation and quarantine that have been cleaned out and not in use. After reading the technical documentation and instructions for use approx 7 times, I have come to the conclusion that there is to much room for error in interpretation for me to run the test accurately unless I can get some clarification from the vendor. It says that Alk must be between 7.5-10dKH and properly buffered ( not sure what they classify as properly buffered ) and an accurate test kit or calibrated meter is required. Test kits that most of us use are not accurate IMO. Hanna Alk tester can give you 2 different readings from the same water sample which has been proven. I now use the Red Sea Pro which has been pretty consistent but it is an eyeball interpretation so one person may say one value while another say's a different value. Most of us do not have a Hach or equivalent measuring device. PH meter IMO opinion would need to be lab grade and not the so called Neptune lab grade probe. PH pens and test kits are also not accurate in repeatability.
What is also confusing is in the technical data, it says it works with buffers and Alk products to increase ph to desirable levels 8.3,8.4 and 8.5. My interpretation of the instructions is this product is for people that already have a ph of 8.2 or higher which I think, but not sure, that you only use this product if you are at 8.2 or higher already and want to achieve what they call a desirable ph range of 8.4-8.5.
Also it says to dose 2ml/10gal, you can measure after 10min and dose 2ml more if needed and so on and no more than 10ml/day. It says that 2ml should increase ph by .1-.3 depending on CO2 levels at the tank which is why they want you to be at a 8.2 or higher stable value before using the product the way I interoperate it.

Question for you is why do we measure Alk in dKH and not TA in ppm? Does 1dKH=17.9ppm TA?

Total alkalinity is best measured and interpreted in molar units, meq/L. Anything else is a conversion that assumes all of the alk came from some specific chemical, which of course it doesn't.

Let’s see what Jack says about starting pH.
It’s actually easier to raise pH with a smaller alk addition when the starting pH is lower.

Total alk is the only measure of buffering that is important here. Correct alk means correct buffering.