Pressure on False Claim Products

[rtparty]

There is an entire thread on vibrant which explains the situation. I am not aware of any proof that vibrant kills corals invertebrates or fish if dosed correctly.

No proof?

Vibrant is Busan77. That is irrefutable and proven beyond a shadow of a doubt at this point. Busan77 specifically states in its warnings it will kill certain aquatic animals. Mollusks being a key one. Maybe mollusks aren’t in your definition of “corals invertebrates or fish?”

Here is the exact quote from the SDS for Busan77:

That’s pretty clear and plenty of proof

 

[MnFish1]

The one-star posts on Amazon amount to a thread posted by actual users. That's more important to me. Anytime I'm considering a product online I check the reviews. When a significant number say don't buy, I read thoroughly and determine if it's worth the risk. They don't list the active ingredients, and I can't find an SDS. That's concerning. I've found other reef products that don't list ingredients that also have some scary reviews.

As discussed before the ingredient in Vibrant seems similar to another product called Algaefix. I used it once - and it was not a positive experience (didn't perform the way it said it would). So - I'm an actual user as well. But if you're interested in that thread, it's quite extensive. The general reason why companies don't list all of the ingredients, is that often the chemicals involved are widely available at much lower prices. It doesn't necessarily mean they don't work. Vice versa, just because a company lists their ingredients does not imply they do work. I'm thinking about multiple 'herbal' remedies that people often use for treatment/prevention of disease.

 

[MnFish1]

No proof?

Vibrant is Busan77. That is irrefutable and proven beyond a shadow of a doubt at this point. Busan77 specifically states in its warnings it will kill certain aquatic animals. Mollusks being a key one. Maybe mollusks aren’t in your definition of “corals invertebrates or fish?”

Here is the exact quote from the SDS for Busan77:

That’s pretty clear and plenty of proof

The warning on your label does not apply to the dosages used in aquaria. I'm also not aware of a majority of people complaining that algae fix kills their coral, et. Thousands of people have vibrant in reef tanks with no toxicity. Some have had problems. Your label also says the product is toxic to fish, right, yet despite multiple hundreds of posts here, I'm not aware that either vibrant or algae fix are 'toxic to fish', and though some have had issues with coral (as I posted in the thread months ago) including myself, its far from a normal occurrence when using these chemicals (which is why I posted 'when dosed correctly' above.

 

[rtparty]

The warning on your label does not apply to the dosages used in aquaria. I'm also not aware of a majority of people complaining that algae fix kills their coral, et. Thousands of people have vibrant in reef tanks with no toxicity. Some have had problems. Your label also says the product is toxic to fish, right, yet despite multiple hundreds of posts here, I'm not aware that either vibrant or algae fix are 'toxic to fish', and though some have had issues with coral (as I posted in the thread months ago) including myself, its far from a normal occurrence when using these chemicals (which is why I posted 'when dosed correctly' above.

So SDS don't matter. Got it. They are just fun and games and no one should believe them.

FYI, earlier in that SDS it talks about concentrations of 2-5ppm. Can you or anyone else test for and know the concentration of Busan in their systems? Can we know for a fact that the directions are keeping us in that range?

Your claim was no proof that Vibrant is toxic to aquatic animals. I literally gave you the proof that it is. Typical though

 

[Nonya]

As discussed before the ingredient in Vibrant seems similar to another product called Algaefix. I used it once - and it was not a positive experience (didn't perform the way it said it would). So - I'm an actual user as well. But if you're interested in that thread, it's quite extensive. The general reason why companies don't list all of the ingredients, is that often the chemicals involved are widely available at much lower prices. It doesn't necessarily mean they don't work. Vice versa, just because a company lists their ingredients does not imply they do work. I'm thinking about multiple 'herbal' remedies that people often use for treatment/prevention of disease.

I agree with the reasons some reasons you gave as to why companies do and don't list ingredients. I'm more focused on those that don't list them and don't respond for more than a year after "we'll get back to you". I did see Randy's comment saying it seems to be similar to Algaefix. Wouldn't copper have a lot of the same/similar negatives? Maybe other things like ReefFlux? It's too bad we don't have the laboratories necessary to prove that some products, not necessarily the products mentioned here, are snake oil. But when a significant percentage of people lose fish, corals, etc., I try to find alternatives. I have too much invested to risk using certain magic potions. I'm thankful for threads like this, and for the various points of view.

 

[Nonya]

No proof?

Vibrant is Busan77. That is irrefutable and proven beyond a shadow of a doubt at this point.

Interesting. Where was it proven to be Busan77? Google's first entry on Busan77 vs Vibrant was in this forum in Feb 2022, attributed to "taricha".

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Interesting. Where was it proven to be Busan77?

It was proven to be the same chemical that is also in Busan. Likely just repackaged, but certainly that cannot be proven.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/u...gaefix-polixetonium-chloride-busan-77.893292/

 

[BeanAnimal]

Let's see if we can help clean up the reef supply world by getting vendors to drop false claim products.

let's start here:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/brightwell-boost-ph.1022375/
From it, in the Premium Aquatics vendor forum:

I'd like to suggest that you drop the Brightwell product Boost pH+ from your product line since it is misleading consumers about what it can do.

Clearly, it cannot do what you (on your web site) and they claim.

https://premiumaquatics.com/products/brightwell-aquatics-boost-ph-250ml.html
"High Range pH Increaser deals with excess CO2, raises pH only without increasing alkalinity or calcium (in tanks already having a proper dKH)"

"Warning: Contains caustic sodium and potassium hydroxides;"

So, the product contains hydroxide (the actual active ingredient), and yet does not increase alkalinity.

That is, of course, simply not true, as folks supplementing calcium and alkalinity using kalkwasser can attest.

Hydroxide instantly boosts alkalinity.

Please either drop this product, or have Brightwell change their label and their advertising copy on your sales web site.

Interesting and I applaud the crusade, but I have a feeling that they don't give a hoot, nor does any manufacturer who makes up magic bullet points and product attributes, or vendor that profits from the products popularity. Snake oil and the salesman are peas in a pod.

 

[Nonya]

It was proven to be the same chemical that is also in Busan. Likely just repackaged, but certainly that cannot be proven.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/u...gaefix-polixetonium-chloride-busan-77.893292/

Wow. The first entry was enough for me. I have to wonder just how concerned some of these companies care about the hobby, other than as a source of income.

 

[rtparty]

Wow. The first entry was enough for me. I have to wonder just how concerned some of these companies care about the hobby, other than as a source of income.

Completely off topic but a popular salt brand was started simply to jump on the money train. The mother company has nothing to do with salt or the hobby in any way. Never has.

 

[Nonya]

Likely just repackaged, but certainly that cannot be proven.

Unless that company has access to another distributor, it's likely the easiest way. Remember when reef suppliers started selling repackaged calcium chloride and baking soda packaged as various products labeled Part A and B? I've used your generic Improved 2-Part (4-part, actually, considering the dual Mg part) for over a decade, using 94-97% CaCl ice melt, baking soda (now washing soda for pH effects), Epsom salts and MgCl ice melt.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Thank goodness you are not an Audiophile or Home Theater enthusiast (that I know of)/ That industry is built on golden ear and golden eye hooey. Cleaning electrons and other amazing devices that alter the electromagnetic spectrum in ways hat only the gifted can hear and the creators can understand, even of the outcome can't be measured by any known device (other then the golden ear or eye) and contradicts all known science.

Try arguing with one of those folks once ;)

 

[MnFish1]

Actually I’m surprised that anyone is surprised that this happens in the reef go hobby. I can’t think of a product group/type that does not puff up their products. Look at shampoo. Toothpaste etc etc etc

 

[MnFish1]

Thank goodness you are not an Audiophile or Home Theater enthusiast (that I know of)/ That industry is built on golden ear and golden eye hooey. Cleaning electrons and other amazing devices that alter the electromagnetic spectrum in ways hat only the gifted can hear and the creators can understand, even of the outcome can't be measured by any known device (other then the golden ear or eye) and contradicts all known science.

Try arguing with one of those folks once ;)

A friend once tried to convince that the 1000++ car audio system was so much better because the sound was so pure and clear. He just looked at me when I asked whether or not the engine and traffic noise doesn’t make it a moot point

 

[MnFish1]

So SDS don't matter. Got it. They are just fun and games and no one should believe them.

FYI, earlier in that SDS it talks about concentrations of 2-5ppm. Can you or anyone else test for and know the concentration of Busan in their systems? Can we know for a fact that the directions are keeping us in that range?

Your claim was no proof that Vibrant is toxic to aquatic animals. I literally gave you the proof that it is. Typical though

If you read what I wrote you’ll see that you’re saying something I did not. I never said ignore the SDS sheet etc etc. i said if dosed correctly there is no clear proof that it’s toxic in an aquarium. There could be a large environmental impact if Busan 77 escaped / leaked from a large pond into the environment. That’s totally unrelated to home aquarium use.

 

[Nonya]

The warning on your label does not apply to the dosages used in aquaria. I'm also not aware of a majority of people complaining that algae fix kills their coral, et. Thousands of people have vibrant in reef tanks with no toxicity. Some have had problems. Your label also says the product is toxic to fish, right, yet despite multiple hundreds of posts here, I'm not aware that either vibrant or algae fix are 'toxic to fish', and though some have had issues with coral (as I posted in the thread months ago) including myself, its far from a normal occurrence when using these chemicals (which is why I posted 'when dosed correctly' above.

My general approach when adding any product saying that it can magically fix my problem is to begin dosing at a fraction of the recommended dose, then waiting for a few days before increasing the dosage slowly until I start noticing any changes, bad or good. I have a feeling that most people aren't as careful, possibly dosing more than the recommended amount in an effort to get a quick result. Patience doesn't seem ubiquitous in the hobby.

 

[SaltyCabbage]

Actually I’m surprised that anyone is surprised that this happens in the reef go hobby. I can’t think of a product group/type that does not puff up their products. Look at shampoo. Toothpaste etc etc etc

I get “puffing up” a product but claiming your product goes against basic chemistry and science isn’t “puffing up” it’s lying to your consumers.

I’m fine with my toothpaste claiming it prevents cavities, I’m not okay with them claiming it gets rid of them.

 

[MnFish1]

I get “puffing up” a product but claiming your product goes against basic chemistry and science isn’t “puffing up” it’s lying to your consumers.

I’m fine with my toothpaste claiming it prevents cavities, I’m not okay with them claiming it gets rid of them.

I never meant to imply it is ok to puff up a product or that it was ok to lie/exaggerate its effectiveness. I just meant everyone seems to do it

 

[MnFish1]

I get “puffing up” a product but claiming your product goes against basic chemistry and science isn’t “puffing up” it’s lying to your consumers.

I’m fine with my toothpaste claiming it prevents cavities, I’m not okay with them claiming it gets rid of them.

BTW - curious - what if your toothpaste - which seems to be re-invented every year - does not prevent cavities, does not prevent gum disease, etc etc. IMHO - The majority of these claims are untrue. I remember (back some years) when dentyne gum supposedly prevented cavities - there was some huge lawsuit (which they lost) - now there is at least one gum producer making the same claim.

 

[MnFish1]

This is an interesting article - if anyone thinks the aquarium industry (inexcusably) IMHO - uses the techniques - well there we are.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/09/11/the-lies-in-your-grocery-store