Pro Reef salt from Turkey

[poidog]

Turkish made salt cost me nearly my entire sps collection. Close to if not exceeding 60k in rare sps. I am a medical doctor with an additional degree in biomedical sciences from Loyola University Chicago and Rutgers Medical school respectively. I have extensive experience in both biology and chemistry. I have extensive experience in narrowing down differential diagnosis to root cause of underlying disease and issues. I am 100 percent certain this salt caused my issue. I blamed it last when I discovered unbenounced to me I had been using salt made in a different facility than the original German production line. The Turkish bucket has an all plastic handle and the German one has a metal handle. It took me six weeks to determine it was the salt. I sent in three Icp analysis to triton. One of my tank water, one of a freshly mixed batch of Turkish salt and one of my RODI. The Turkish salt fresh batch had severely elevated iron and manganese which I was told was normal by TM.

Following my determination I switched salt brands and the first water change I saw an immediate improvement. Sps Which had zero polyp extension for six weeks IMMEDIATELY shot polyps out on a tiny water change. Prior to switching salts everytime I did a waterchange things would deteriorate more rapidly and often tip sps corals from STN into RTN and the following day I would pull out 2-3 colonies which had taken me 5 plus years of blood sweat and tears to grow. The following week I did a ten percent water change with my new salt brand on the daily. After every single water change the corals started looking better and better. After two weeks of doing this, the corals that were left were colored back up and on their way back to 100 percent health and coloration. I CHANGED NOTHING ELSE FOR THIS RESULT.

I posted about this issue back in September and was half ridiculed and half supported. I have had around 15 people contact my reefing business page with the exact same complaints and everytime the moment they switch off the salt to my recommendation of a new brand they see reversal of the issue. TM is still denying responsibility and I have remained cordial through the entire process. They have refunded me my money for the four buckets which cost me half of my collection but offered to pay for my losses as they don’t believe their salt is the culprit. My intention is not to destroy or harm TM in anyway. I used their salt for 6 years and was integral in switching almost the entire high end Midwest market to their company. I was the biggest TM cheerleader of anyone. If people wanted me to do service on their tanks I would not agree until they threw out their salt and switched to my TM pro brand.

This is just my two cents and my experience with this specific issue. To say I’m dismayed and upset with what happened is an understatement. During that period of time I was staffing the ICU at my hospital and I spent every waking moment of my free time at home pulling my hair out and working up this issue. It was the most exhausting and stressful time of my entire life. I have never experienced a crash in the 11 years of my hobby experience. I expanded my differential diagnosis for the etiology of the problem so wide I started blaming hair products and even thought maybe a client maliciously poured somthing into my tank because the paranoia had gotten so big. It was none of those things, it was the salt. End of story.

below please find before and after pics of colonies side by side. The pics on the left show my sps at the peak of the issue. The pics on the right show the same exact corals that made it through that issue on the other side alive and six weeks after switching salts and a 100 percent turnover of water change with the new brand.

-Ryan Cunningham MD MBS
Owner and operator of Chumminghamsreef

Thanks Ryan for the thorough write up. I do have plastic handled buckets of German made salt (the smaller 1/2 size buckets). This is first time I’ve gotten the Turkish salt and was a box size via BRS. This solidifies it and what I have is going directly into the trash. I’ll work my way through what I have left of the German made salt and find an alternative to switch to. I’m not going to play the TM salt Russian roulette game ordering salt seeing which plant I get.

 

[sneekapeek]

Yeah, I’m half way through my first tub of the new salt. The parameters in my tank have changed significantly. Everything is lower, especially Mg. There is also a difference in the pH of a freshly mixed batch of the new salt over the old formula. The first two water changes I did with this new salt I got a pH spike.
My Apex alarm is set at 8.4. My pH normally runs 8.28 - 8.3. This new mix set the alarm off. I “fixed” by letting the water mix for two days before I use it. It’s weird to me the pH would be high but the Alk, Ca and Mg lower than normal. I’ve had to significantly increase dosing Alk and Ca and if I keep using this salt I’ll have dosing Mg.

I’m thinking of switching to Brightwell salt mix. What’s the opinion on Brightwell salt mix?

Brightwell mixes with solid residual in container. Makes me wonder every time i mix if it’s not fully dissolved, what am I losing out on, or what’s in it to create this. Wouldn’t recommend, unless you don’t care and enjoy a cheaper salt with a lower alk level. It just messes with my head knowing there’s particles that don’t dissolve. TM mixes so clean it’s really hard to use any other, also the fact I know I’m not getting other impurities in the tank is quite relieving. If it’s not tm than I’d go Red Sea blue bucket. Red Sea mixes clear, will leave some hard particles at bottom of mix, but the Cost and quality is spot on with low alk.

 

[2una]

The Turkish salt fresh batch had severely elevated iron and manganese which I was told was normal by TM.

Sorry to hear about your loses but what was the Fe & Mn levels you got?
I did an icp on Tmpr salt back in May 2018 & its was 33ug/l + 50ug/l respectively back then.

 

[poidog]

I would also like to add the amount of brown slime the Turkish salt left that was on my mixing bucket. This was from mixing 5g in an otherwise clean bucket.

 

[Lou Ekus]

I would also like to add the amount of brown slime the Turkish salt left that was on my mixing bucket. This was from mixing 5g in an otherwise clean bucket.

Please note, this is not specific to Tropic Marin salt made in any one location. See this post:

Calling On Tropic Marine For Help!!!

I'm not sure why you say "lower cost location". There is some misconception that this location in Turkey was some kind of compromise that Tropic Marin made. It is not! We expanded our manufacturing with a new facility. It just happens to be located in Turkey. After much evaluation, this was our...

www.reef2reef.com

This is exactly your situation as well. I am not saying that you are not having the issue. I'm just pointing out that @PeterC99, a long time TM user, also had not seen this before, and it turned out to NOT be specific to any manufacturing location. It can happen.

 

[poidog]

Please note, this is not specific to Tropic Marin salt made in any one location. See this post:

Calling On Tropic Marine For Help!!!

I'm not sure why you say "lower cost location". There is some misconception that this location in Turkey was some kind of compromise that Tropic Marin made. It is not! We expanded our manufacturing with a new facility. It just happens to be located in Turkey. After much evaluation, this was our...

www.reef2reef.com

This is exactly your situation as well. I am not saying that you are not having the issue. I'm just pointing out that @PeterC99, a long time TM user, also had not seen this before, and it turned out to NOT be specific to any manufacturing location. It can happen.

Hi Lou, Thanks for the response. This is more than just the brown slime if you take a look at my original post. Mixing German and Turkish batches side by side there is a physical, both sight and smell, difference between the two salts. The Turkish salt has also left the brown slime which I have never encountered before. I have been using TMpro for years and have never encountered any of this until I got a box of the turkish salt. As a consumer, I can't confidently get behind the claim that the salts from the two locations are using the same source materials when there is a physical difference.

 

[Wonton Soup]

I used their salt for 6 years and was integral in switching almost the entire high end Midwest market to their company.

LOL, no. You weren't. Blow that smoke somewhere else.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Hi Lou, Thanks for the response. This is more than just the brown slime if you take a look at my original post. Mixing German and Turkish batches side by side there is a physical, both sight and smell, difference between the two salts. The Turkish salt has also left the brown slime which I have never encountered before. I have been using TMpro for years and have never encountered any of this until I got a box of the turkish salt. As a consumer, I can't confidently get behind the claim that the salts from the two locations are using the same source materials when there is a physical difference.

I completely understand and appreciate your comments. I will just point out one last thing... it's very interesting to me that when TM has had small differences in supplied raw materials, from the same sources, in the past (like slightly different grain sizes of sodium chloride for example) it has never been noticed. Now that we have this new manufacturing facility, small variations like that, that have existed for many years, all of a sudden get noticed and become an issue, and get blamed for all kinds of problems.

I feel somewhat at a loss that I cannot allay your fears, but I totally understand. I have probably said all that I can about our salt manufacturing. So I will have to leave it there and hope that time will prove our position in the field.

As always, I am available by email and by phone to talk further about anything in relation to Tropic Marin, if you ever feel the need. I hope to be a resource in whatever situations might arise.

 

[IKD]

Hi Lou, Thanks for the response. This is more than just the brown slime if you take a look at my original post. Mixing German and Turkish batches side by side there is a physical, both sight and smell, difference between the two salts. The Turkish salt has also left the brown slime which I have never encountered before. I have been using TMpro for years and have never encountered any of this until I got a box of the turkish salt. As a consumer, I can't confidently get behind the claim that the salts from the two locations are using the same source materials when there is a physical difference.

Hi @poidog , the user on the other thread tried to repeat the situation and was not able to do so. Would you be willing to try mixing another side-by-side batch and see if you see the same results?

 

[Lou Ekus]

Hi @poidog , the user on the other thread tried to repeat the situation and was not able to do so. Would you be willing to try mixing another side-by-side batch and see if you see the same results?

That customer did the second try in a completely new bucket that had not had salt water mixed in it before.

 

[poidog]

Hi @poidog , the user on the other thread tried to repeat the situation and was not able to do so. Would you be willing to try mixing another side-by-side batch and see if you see the same results?

Yes, I absolutely can... but again this is more than just the brown residue. The dry salt from the turkish batch has a strong sweet acidic (almost citrus) smell the moment you open the bag. This smell stays with the mixed water both immediately after mixing and after 24 hours stored. The mix precipitate is also different (maybe that is just due to a finer particle?). Again, these may be entirely superficial observations and the end result is the same ICP with no ill effects.

As a long time user of the salt, and the TM brand, when something like this changes, you notice. Lou to your point, when the change is noticed between batches of different of manufacturing locations that tends to let one draw a reasonable conclusion. Now, if TM stated there was a change to the ProReef formula and users may see a difference and the same product results were coming from both locations, there would be no reason for concern. However, the German facility is still producing the same formula we're used to seeing while the new Turkey location is sending out something different.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Yes, I absolutely can... but again this is more than just the brown residue. The dry salt from the turkish batch has a strong sweet acidic (almost citrus) smell the moment you open the bag. This smell stays with the mixed water both immediately after mixing and after 24 hours stored. The mix precipitate is also different (maybe that is just due to a finer particle?). Again, these may be entirely superficial observations and the end result is the same ICP with no ill effects.

As a long time user of the salt, and the TM brand, when something like this changes, you notice. Lou to your point, when the change is noticed between batches of different of manufacturing locations that tends to let one draw a reasonable conclusion. Now, if TM stated there was a change to the ProReef formula and users may see a difference and the same product results were coming from both locations, there would be no reason for concern. However, the German facility is still producing the same formula we're used to seeing while the new Turkey location is sending out something different.

I'm not sure there is much more I can say to address this for you. I will reiterate what I have said above:

I feel somewhat at a loss that I cannot allay your fears, but I totally understand. I have probably said all that I can about our salt manufacturing. So I will have to leave it there and hope that time will prove our position in the field.

As always, I am available by email and by phone to talk further about anything in relation to Tropic Marin, if you ever feel the need. I hope to be a resource in whatever situations might arise.

 

[FragQueen]

Yes, I absolutely can... but again this is more than just the brown residue. The dry salt from the turkish batch has a strong sweet acidic (almost citrus) smell the moment you open the bag. This smell stays with the mixed water both immediately after mixing and after 24 hours stored. The mix precipitate is also different (maybe that is just due to a finer particle?). Again, these may be entirely superficial observations and the end result is the same ICP with no ill effects.

As a long time user of the salt, and the TM brand, when something like this changes, you notice. Lou to your point, when the change is noticed between batches of different of manufacturing locations that tends to let one draw a reasonable conclusion. Now, if TM stated there was a change to the ProReef formula and users may see a difference and the same product results were coming from both locations, there would be no reason for concern. However, the German facility is still producing the same formula we're used to seeing while the new Turkey location is sending out something different.

FINALLY I find someone experiencing the same thing as I am. The smell!! It’s like a light citrus fragrance similar to a cheap laundry detergent. I’m way too paranoid to add this to my system. I’ve been letting 30g of this mix and it’s been about 8 hours now. The water is still slightly cloudy. I gave another brute can right next to it with RODI water as a clarity reference. This is my first time ever using TM and it was a BRS box I bought in November.
ive been appreciative of Lou’s responses here and in the other thread, however I am not at my own loss for words and the smell continues to be avoided in responses.
I want to know……is the mix safe to use!??? I haven’t tested parameters of the fresh mix yet as it is still cloudy, but Even if the parameters measure fine, I’m weary about adding fragrant salt water to my system!

 

[poidog]

FINALLY I find someone experiencing the same thing as I am. The smell!! It’s like a light citrus fragrance similar to a cheap laundry detergent. I’m way too paranoid to add this to my system. I’ve been letting 30g of this mix and it’s been about 8 hours now. The water is still slightly cloudy. I gave another brute can right next to it with RODI water as a clarity reference. This is my first time ever using TM and it was a BRS box I bought in November.
ive been appreciative of Lou’s responses here and in the other thread, however I am not at my own loss for words and the smell continues to be avoided in responses.
I want to know……is the mix safe to use!??? I haven’t tested parameters of the fresh mix yet as it is still cloudy, but Even if the parameters measure fine, I’m weary about adding fragrant salt water to my system!

I also was very disappointed with Lou’s lack of response addressing my specific concerns and alluding to the fact that I’m making this up when others have stated the same observation. If the response would of been along the lines of explaining why the Turkish salt has those properties (ie a different sourced anti cackling agent, mineral, etc) I could then rely on the confidence that TM knows what’s going on and verified that it’s safe. However to completely avoid the concern raises alarms for me. Because of that, I will no longer be using TM salts after using them for over 10 years.

I did not use the box of Turkish salt that I received (from BRS also) as it was clearly different from the regular product that has been consistently made for years, and tossed it in the trash. A $50 box of salt is not worth the risk that it could lead to a possible tank crash if something was wrong with that batch.

 

[FragQueen]

I also was very disappointed with Lou’s lack of response addressing my specific concerns and alluding to the fact that I’m making this up when others have stated the same observation. If the response would of been along the lines of explaining why the Turkish salt has those properties (ie a different sourced anti cackling agent, mineral, etc) I could then rely on the confidence that TM knows what’s going on and verified that it’s safe. However to completely avoid the concern raises alarms for me. Because of that, I will no longer be using TM salts after using them for over 10 years.

I did not use the box of Turkish salt that I received (from BRS also) as it was clearly different from the regular product that has been consistently made for years, and tossed it in the trash. A $50 box of salt is not worth the risk that it could lead to a possible tank crash if something was wrong with that batch.

I guess my only question now would be will BRS accept to exchange my two boxes of TM since they were bought back on 11/19/21, or will I have to jump through hoops with TM to get a replacement. I really was excited to finally try TM but this has been a let down and it could have cost me thousands in livestock

 

[Lou Ekus]

I also was very disappointed with Lou’s lack of response addressing my specific concerns and alluding to the fact that I’m making this up when others have stated the same observation. If the response would of been along the lines of explaining why the Turkish salt has those properties (ie a different sourced anti cackling agent, mineral, etc) I could then rely on the confidence that TM knows what’s going on and verified that it’s safe. However to completely avoid the concern raises alarms for me. Because of that, I will no longer be using TM salts after using them for over 10 years.

I did not use the box of Turkish salt that I received (from BRS also) as it was clearly different from the regular product that has been consistently made for years, and tossed it in the trash. A $50 box of salt is not worth the risk that it could lead to a possible tank crash if something was wrong with that batch.

It is very late at the moment, and our office is closed, so I will make this short post now and make a longer one tomorrow!
PLEASE DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH! I DID respond and I DID NOT accuse you of "making this up"!
I do my best to address every concern about TM products that I possibly can. And YES, the TM salt made in our facility in Turkey, is 100% safe to use, as is the salt made in our two facilities in Germany.
I will address other comments you have made Monday when I return to the office.

 

[HeyLookItsCaps]

I’ve ran through 3 boxes of the “Turkish delight” and nothing has changed. mixes perfect in my 55 barrels, smells like a sneeze is coming because salt burns my nose, no residue or parameter changes.

 

[FragQueen]

This morning after mixing overnight, the TM I got from BRS is still not clear. What’s worse is I can actually see the brown sludge at the bottom of my brute can before even draining it! That is a first for me. I’ve dealt with Red Sea brown sludge plenty, but never have I been able to see it before wiping the container. I’m very disappointed and concerned. The solution also still has the same odor of citrus cleaning products. But hey, Lou said above that their products are 100% safe so let’s see how my QT tank likes it. Parameters 1.025 salinity, 6.5 alkalinity (so now I have to supplement, great) Ca 410, Mg 1200! My test kit is a Red Sea with an esp date of 9/2022 and using an ATC refractometer. My water comes from a well on my property and I have a whole home treatment system. TDS going into my dual membrane RO unit is 120ish. I let my rodi water Gas off overnight. Then remove the remaining ~5 tds with BRS dual canister DI resins. I’ve been mixing multiple brands for years and at the very least none of them have ever had a fragrance. I’ve got both my TM boxes here and will contact the appropriate parties Monday I guess. I’ve attached pictures taken just now. One is my brute can mixing Red Sea as my back-up, the other is TM. I’ll let y’all decide which is which based on what I’ve said so far. For years, after mixing a large batch of water I will hose down the inside of the can, and then spray down the inside with RODI water, and dry it out with paper towels. My brute cans are always clean, always ready.

 

[rtparty]

All your parameters are lower than expected. This can be a sign your refractometer is off. About 10% off actually.

 

[FragQueen]

All your parameters are lower than expected. This can be a sign your refractometer is off. About 10% off actually.

I measured the salinity of the Red Sea mix and all of those parameters are within the range that they should be for that brand…I wipe the glass of my refractomer with rodi water after each use and I also recalibrated it right before making my post today.