Proper dosing of Coppersafe

[Crashjack]

Agreed.

Which is why I measure it out and then sample with my API kit. I use that sample as the reference I try to maintain. I do find the API kits to be consistent, even if they aren't accurate.

I can't get consistency from API. I tried reference samples, and they all looked very similar. I measured 3 concentrations and took multiple photographs with each under different lighting. The only method I found that sort of worked was to take a "visual average". I started taking pictures of my actual tests and compared to my reference samples. "Visual averaging" was the only way I could make any sense but at the end of the day, I was really just guessing. I think my plan is to pick a concentration (maybe 1.35 ml per gallon), measure with Chemectrics, and see if the tests are consistent. If so, I should be able to keep that concentration based on the Chemectrics test, which I can read.

 

[Brew12]

I can't get consistency from API. I tried reference samples, and they all looked very similar. I measured 3 concentrations and took multiple photographs with each under different lighting. The only method I found that sort of worked was to take a "visual average". I started taking pictures of my actual tests and compared to my reference samples. "Visual averaging" was the only way I could make any sense but at the end of the day, I was really just guessing. I think my plan is to pick a concentration (maybe 1.35 ml per gallon), measure with Chemectrics, and see if the tests are consistent. If so, I should be able to keep that concentration based on the Chemectrics test, which I can read.

I would recommend picking a concentration around 1.9 ml per gallon and using that to see if you get consistent coloration.

I know the recommended dose is 1.25ml per gallon but even Fritz wont claim that the concentration is correct. On their website they still list proper copper levels as 0.15ppm to 0.2ppm copper despite the fact that 1.25ml per gallon is 1.16ppm copper. None of it makes sense.

Since Humblefish has done so much testing on copper levels to treat fish I prefer to go with his recommendation of 1.5ppm to 2.0ppm.

 

[Humblefish]

FWIW; I just ordered one of every copper test kit. After the holidays, I will get to the bottom of all this. Figure out which test kit works best with what type of copper.

 

[Crashjack]

FWIW; I just ordered one of every copper test kit. After the holidays, I will get to the bottom of all this. Figure out which test kit works best with what type of copper.

You ‘da man!

 

[Crashjack]

I wanted to update my correspondence with Chemetrics. My questions and Chemetrics responses:

Me: I purchased your kit Copper (soluble) — CHEMets® Visual Kit Catalog No.: K-3510 to measure copper levels when treating saltwater fish. The copper product I'm using is Coppersafe (chelated copper). The test results I'm getting are higher than what it should be based on the dosage listed on the bottle, and I'm trying to determine which is accurate. I've dosed approximately 1.05 ml of the product per gallon, which should yield a little over 1 mg/l of copper. I'm getting 2.0, spot-on with your test kit. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

"Sarah" Technical Services Rep: Are you waiting only one minute for the color to develop instead of 2 minutes (see Test Method section of instructions)?

Please note that the accuracy of this kit is +/- one color standard increment. Therefore, a 1 ppm standard can read from 0.8 – 2 ppm.

Me: I didn’t see the “wait 1 minute” part until after I tested. So if I follow what you are saying about the color standard, there is really no way to pinpoint 1.5 - 2.0 ppm, which is what I’m shooting for as the margin of error is likely to be over 1 ppm. Is that correct? Just curious, what is the reason for the low range precision (.2 ppm increments), if the margin of error spans the entire scale?

"Melanie" Technical Services Rep: To clarify, your test result of 2 ppm is within the accuracy expectation of the test kit for a sample that contains approximately 1 ppm copper.

As Sarah mentioned, the accuracy of this visual kit is +/- color standard increment; in other words, the accuracy is dependent upon the available increments. Specifically, the color standard increments for this kit are:
0, 0.1, 0.2, 0.3, 0.4, 0.6, 0.8, 1.0 and 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10 ppm. So, the accuracies of this test kit are: +/-0.1 ppm between 0 & 0.4 ppm, +/-0.2 between 0.4 & 1 ppm, +/-1 ppm between 1 & 8 ppm, +/-2 ppm between 8 & 10 ppm. Increments of 0.2 ppm are possible to distinguish visually in the 0-1 ppm range with the C-3501 (round) comparator, but for concentrations greater than 1 ppm (i.e. with the C-3510 flat comparator), increments of 0.2 ppm are essentially indistinguishable.

Also to clarify, the intensity of the developed color in the test ampoule doesn’t change significantly between 1 and 2 minutes of color development. Seawater samples will cause the reagent to precipitate, which can make it more difficult to make a visual color match. Since the precipitation worsens with time, the shorter color development time of 1 minute is recommended for seawater samples simply to minimize the impact of the precipitation while making a visual color match.

Me: Thanks for the thorough explanation! So if I got a reading of say 2.5 ppm (color between 2 ppm and 3 ppm samples), would it be safe to say the copper level was at a minimum of 1.5 ppm and no greater than 3.5 ppm, assuming I took the reading after 1 minute?

"Melanie" Technical Services Rep: Correct.

Me: Also, does the fact that the product I’m using is chelated copper change anything?

"Melanie" Technical Services Rep: That’s a good question. We know that the test kit chemistry doesn’t measure some chelated copper (e.g. copper chelated with EDTA). However, Mardel Laboratories, the manufacturer of Coppersafe, reported many years ago that K-3510 accurately measures the copper in their product. We don’t know what the chelant is because that’s proprietary. It has dawned on me today that Mardel would have taken measurements at 2 minutes of color development, not at 1 minute (the 1 minute color development time for seawater samples is a relatively new procedure). It’s possible that since it’s chelated, the copper in Coppersafe may take more than 1 minute to develop full color, so it would be a good idea for you to confirm that results obtained at 1 and 2 minutes do agree with your seawater samples.

I don't know if this is earth-shattering information, but I find some things interesting: 1) Mardel confirmed in the past that the Chemectrics test kit accurately measured Coppersafe. 2) The margin of error is huge but at least Chemectrics identifies it. I could find no information in regards to margin of error with API or Hach test kits, though they obviously have some margin of error. 3) If the chelant used in Coppersafe doesn't effect the Chemectrics test, I have to wonder if any of these kits are better than the others as far as accuracy is concerned (API could be accurate but since I can't read it, it doesn't matter). 4) Without a known sample concentration, there is really no way to say which test is accurate and which isn't. I don't see a way to get a known sample concentration.

 

[Crashjack]

I would recommend picking a concentration around 1.9 ml per gallon and using that to see if you get consistent coloration.

I know the recommended dose is 1.25ml per gallon but even Fritz wont claim that the concentration is correct. On their website they still list proper copper levels as 0.15ppm to 0.2ppm copper despite the fact that 1.25ml per gallon is 1.16ppm copper. None of it makes sense.

My issue is, we don't really know what concentration we get at 1.25 ml per gallon. Fritz says the 1.25 ml/gal dosage is correct, and people have used it for years with apparent success. Yet, Fritz has something else showing 1.25 ml/gal yields only 1.17-1.18 ppm cheated copper. They also state that this is a safe treatment level due to their chelating agent... who knows? It's all a hedge. The higher the dosage, the more likely my wrasse will die or stop eating, which just restarts the whole mess. Of course, the lower the dosage, the more likely I am to infect my display tank. I don't doubt that 1.9 ml/gal is a good dosage. I just don't know that 1.25 ml/gal wont work, which gets me back to my hedge. I'm at 1.25 ml/gal as of this morning so maybe I'll raise that to 1.50 ml/gal over the next few days. I know that doesn't get me to 1.5 ppm if in fact 1.25 ml/gal results in only 1.17-1.18 ppm. However, if 1.25 mg/l is in fact a legitimate treatment dose, I'm well above that.

 

[Brew12]

They also state that this is a safe treatment level due to their chelating agent

I get it completely.

The only issue I have is that they claim it is a safe treatment level but when I talked to their customer support they would not say it was completely effective and that they were conducting tests to determine an updated dosing recommendation.
Let's face it, this situation is a mess. Your logic is as good as any given the situation.

 

[Brew12]

I wanted to update my correspondence with Chemetrics. My questions and Chemetrics responses:

Me: I purchased your kit Copper (soluble) — CHEMets® Visual Kit Catalog No.: K-3510 to measure copper levels when treating saltwater fish. The copper product I'm using is Coppersafe (chelated copper). The test results I'm getting are higher than what it should be based on the dosage listed on the bottle, and I'm trying to determine which is accurate. I've dosed approximately 1.05 ml of the product per gallon, which should yield a little over 1 mg/l of copper. I'm getting 2.0, spot-on with your test kit. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

"Sarah" Technical Services Rep: Are you waiting only one minute for the color to develop instead of 2 minutes (see Test Method section of instructions)?

Please note that the accuracy of this kit is +/- one color standard increment. Therefore, a 1 ppm standard can read from 0.8 – 2 ppm.

Me: I didn’t see the “wait 1 minute” part until after I tested. So if I follow what you are saying about the color standard, there is really no way to pinpoint 1.5 - 2.0 ppm, which is what I’m shooting for as the margin of error is likely to be over 1 ppm. Is that correct? Just curious, what is the reason for the low range precision (.2 ppm increments), if the margin of error spans the entire scale?

"Melanie" Technical Services Rep: To clarify, your test result of 2 ppm is within the accuracy expectation of the test kit for a sample that contains approximately 1 ppm copper.

As Sarah mentioned, the accuracy of this visual kit is +/- color standard increment; in other words, the accuracy is dependent upon the available increments. Specifically, the color standard increments for this kit are:
0, 0.1, 0.2, 0.3, 0.4, 0.6, 0.8, 1.0 and 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10 ppm. So, the accuracies of this test kit are: +/-0.1 ppm between 0 & 0.4 ppm, +/-0.2 between 0.4 & 1 ppm, +/-1 ppm between 1 & 8 ppm, +/-2 ppm between 8 & 10 ppm. Increments of 0.2 ppm are possible to distinguish visually in the 0-1 ppm range with the C-3501 (round) comparator, but for concentrations greater than 1 ppm (i.e. with the C-3510 flat comparator), increments of 0.2 ppm are essentially indistinguishable.

Also to clarify, the intensity of the developed color in the test ampoule doesn’t change significantly between 1 and 2 minutes of color development. Seawater samples will cause the reagent to precipitate, which can make it more difficult to make a visual color match. Since the precipitation worsens with time, the shorter color development time of 1 minute is recommended for seawater samples simply to minimize the impact of the precipitation while making a visual color match.

Me: Thanks for the thorough explanation! So if I got a reading of say 2.5 ppm (color between 2 ppm and 3 ppm samples), would it be safe to say the copper level was at a minimum of 1.5 ppm and no greater than 3.5 ppm, assuming I took the reading after 1 minute?

"Melanie" Technical Services Rep: Correct.

Me: Also, does the fact that the product I’m using is chelated copper change anything?

"Melanie" Technical Services Rep: That’s a good question. We know that the test kit chemistry doesn’t measure some chelated copper (e.g. copper chelated with EDTA). However, Mardel Laboratories, the manufacturer of Coppersafe, reported many years ago that K-3510 accurately measures the copper in their product. We don’t know what the chelant is because that’s proprietary. It has dawned on me today that Mardel would have taken measurements at 2 minutes of color development, not at 1 minute (the 1 minute color development time for seawater samples is a relatively new procedure). It’s possible that since it’s chelated, the copper in Coppersafe may take more than 1 minute to develop full color, so it would be a good idea for you to confirm that results obtained at 1 and 2 minutes do agree with your seawater samples.

I don't know if this is earth-shattering information, but I find some things interesting: 1) Mardel confirmed in the past that the Chemectrics test kit accurately measured Coppersafe. 2) The margin of error is huge but at least Chemectrics identifies it. I could find no information in regards to margin of error with API or Hach test kits, though they obviously have some margin of error. 3) If the chelant used in Coppersafe doesn't effect the Chemectrics test, I have to wonder if any of these kits are better than the others as far as accuracy is concerned (API could be accurate but since I can't read it, it doesn't matter). 4) Without a known sample concentration, there is really no way to say which test is accurate and which isn't. I don't see a way to get a known sample concentration.

Great information!

 

[Humblefish]

Probably the best way to apply copper is to use pure copper sulfate pentahydrate, which has a therapeutic range of only 0.15–0.20 mg/L Cu2+.

The catch is you really should use a colorimeter (like this one) or at least a professional grade test kit (2x daily) due to the narrow therapeutic range. Trying to maintain a copper level with only 0.05 ppm difference is not exactly "hobbyist friendly".

 

[drstardust]

Probably the best way to apply copper is to use pure copper sulfate pentahydrate, which has a therapeutic range of only 0.15–0.20 mg/L Cu2+.

The catch is you really should use a colorimeter (like this one) or at least a professional grade test kit (2x daily) due to the narrow therapeutic range. Trying to maintain a copper level with only 0.05 ppm difference is not exactly "hobbyist friendly".

Would such a colorimeter be effective in measuring any type of copper? If so I may consider saving up for one

 

[4FordFamily]

Wow what a cluster! So if I double what it says I should be 2.3 give or take!

I have been slowly dosing and had forgotten the instructions are incorrect!

@HotRockTarBaby take note for the qt at your house. I’d be dosing 1 capful (5ml roughly) every AM and evening. When you’re close to 2.0 from this first post, test and figure out where you are. Wouldn’t hurt to test sooner.

 

[Humblefish]

Would such a colorimeter be effective in measuring any type of copper? If so I may consider saving up for one

The range is 0.04 - 5.00 ppm (using 0.01 increments), but also states that it only tests free copper. So it may not accurately measure chelated copper - which requires a total copper test kit.

 

[Radman73]

I can't get consistency from API. I tried reference samples, and they all looked very similar. I measured 3 concentrations and took multiple photographs with each under different lighting. The only method I found that sort of worked was to take a "visual average". I started taking pictures of my actual tests and compared to my reference samples. "Visual averaging" was the only way I could make any sense but at the end of the day, I was really just guessing. I think my plan is to pick a concentration (maybe 1.35 ml per gallon), measure with Chemectrics, and see if the tests are consistent. If so, I should be able to keep that concentration based on the Chemectrics test, which I can read.

I resorted to asking my wife and daughter to read the kit. Unfortunately, Copper Power recommends 2.5ppm which, on API, simply means somewhere between 2 and 4ppm lol! So, I followed Brew's suggestion of taking photos. I took 1gal of water made up for a water change, added 1.5ml of Copper Power, ran the test, and took the picture. Marked the picture up on my iPhone so that I would remember which one was the reference. I've then saved every pic I've taken of the tank copper level since just so I can compare over time.

Once I'm done with this QT period I'm going to mark the tank with a sharpie for every 2 gallons so I KNOW how much medicine to apply rather than guessing and hoping.

In any case, I'm confident that my copper level is where it's supposed to be and my suggestion would be if you have trouble reading the kit a) ask someone with better eyes and ability to discern color, and b) make the reference sample as Brew has kindly suggested.

 

[drstardust]

The range is 0.04 - 5.00 ppm (using 0.01 increments), but also states that it only tests free copper. So it may not accurately measure chelated copper - which requires a total copper test kit.

Lame haha. But Hach makes one of those too it would appear. Do you have one?

 

[Humblefish]

Lame haha. But Hach makes one of those too it would appear. Do you have one?

No, but will try to fit it into my budget. My thing is I mostly use CP nowadays; I only plan on using copper for wrasses, anthias & Hippo Tangs until I can do more experimentation on those with CP.

 

[pdiehm]

Happy to report that both the Hippo and Midas are doing great. my amount is 70ml into the aquarium. Equates to just under 2.0ppm (give or take). Both fish are eating well, the midas is hiding a bit more than he was without the medication, but the hippo who was showing signs of Ich or Velvet is clear, his colors are bright and radiant.

Estimated transfer date is 12/25 (maybe a few days later).

 

[Alpine926]

Hey guys! Pretty new to the forum here just wanted to let you know my experience with mardel Coppersafe.

I currently have a 5" clown trigger I bought from a local reefer and noticed a couple of his tangs in his display tank has some ich spots. I immediately put him straight into a 29g quarantine set up. I dosed 1/2 the recommended dose on the bottle the first day he was in quarantine, waited 24 hours and dosed the other 1/2 of the recommended dose. I was aimng to ramp up the copper slowly to not stress him out.I do 50% water changes about every 3-4 days and have been treating the replacement water with coppersafe per the dosing instructions prior to putting it in the QT.

I have had this clown for about 3 weeks and about 5 days ago his condition was the worst it has been since I have had him. He was covered by at least 300 ich spots. I determined the recommended dose of 5ml/4 gal was not sufficient as my fish was getting worse. I upped the dose to 2ml/gal and within a couple days the ich spots started dropping off. They have come back but are in fewer numbers, only a handfull of spots now.

I will let you know what happens to him using the 2ml/gal dose. I am not planning on putting him in my display until he is ich spot free for three weeks. I'll keep you guys posted.

 

[Humblefish]

@Alpine926 I recommend buying an API copper test kit, so you'll have a rough idea of what the Cu level actually is. 1.5 - 2.0 ppm is therapeutic range for Coppersafe.

 

[Crashjack]

@Alpine926 I recommend buying an API copper test kit, so you'll have a rough idea of what the Cu level actually is. 1.5 - 2.0 ppm is therapeutic range for Coppersafe.

Just to throw another wrench in the works, the information from Fritz that Brew12 posted on page 2 of this thread states that the API test is not accurate for measuring Coppersafe. It states that a 2 ppm Coppersafe sample tested as 1 ppm with API. I've been measuring 3 ppm in my QT with Chemectrics. I took an API test reading today and felt like I finagled the best reading I've ever gotten with API in that the lighting was just right and the colors on the card seemed to pop. I read 1.5 ppm. Oddly, it was half of the Chemictrics test, which also follows Fritz' findings with API measuring 1/2 the sample's ppm. I'm not saying Chemectrics is right, or that API is wrong, or that Fritz even has a way to make a known 2 ppm sample. I'm just saying that all of this is so convoluted, I don't think we really know what our copper levels are or how much Coppersafe to dose.

 

[Crashjack]

One more thing I wanted to pass along... I wanted to know how the chelating agent might effect the Chemetrics test.:

• Me: One more question. If measuring chelated copper caused errors with the tests, would the test results likely measure high, low, or would they be erratic?
• Melanie Technical rep: The bias would be low if the chelated copper in the sample does not readily react with the test kit reagent.

If Melanie is correct, then any higher than expected Chemetrics readings aren’t a result of measuring chelated Coppersafe vs. measuring non-chelated copper. Therefore, my conclusion is that either API is accurate, Chemectrics is a $70 piece of crap because it measures twice of what API measures, and Fritz is wrong about API; or Chemectrics is accurate within its margin of error and likely more accurate or at least telling than API. Clear as mud.