Proper dosing of Coppersafe

[pdiehm]

I hate to say it, but I feel like I am seeing clustered white spots, not the longer ovals associated with Crypto. I feel like this poor guy has Velvet. @4FordFamily , are you still on to offer an opinion?

Not that it matters much, you have him in a QT with copper, so you are on the right track for treatment for either.

I wasn’t sure. Ich or velvet. Either way it wasn’t good. But it was good because I spend a lot of time down there looking at the QT tank. I saw a spot or 2 last week. Wasn’t sure, but the next day it wasn’t there. Tuesday morning he had a bunch of white spots near his tail, some near his head and along the dorsel fin area. Ordered the copper safe, and as mentioned above, 50ml in, 65 tomorrow morning, hoping to get to low need therapeutic level tomorrow and start thgiving clock. The blenny isn’t showing any signs of infection.

This is actually their 3rd week in QT. Took about 11 days to get the hippo eating, but there was a prazipro dose in there’s. I really didn’t want to add copper without him eating, and truth be told, I didn’t want to add copper as it is, but this is why we QT

 

[pdiehm]

I decided to add a final 10ml of solution to the tank. 1.6ml x 37 (estimated gallons in the 40 breeder) is 59.2ml of solution. That should put me in the low end of therapeutic. Would rather error on the conservative side until I know exactly how many gallons are in my 40 breeder with a pvc structure, a rock, a 2" pvc elbow, and the aquaclear 70. Will test the copper reading later, and try to do it outside in the sunlight, but reading color cards isn't my specialty, which is again why I error on the side of caution.

As for the tang, he looks good, but can't say for sure until the lights come on at 1pm.

 

[pdiehm]

70 ml coppersafe dosed. I gotta be close to therapeutic level. Anyone have an idea about how many millileters to dose for a 40 breeder filled to the bottom of the trim. I'm guestimating there's 37 gallons of water, including what is in the aquaclear 70.

at 1.75ml/gallon, that gives me 64.25 ml of coppersafe. I'm at 70, which should be in the 1.9ppm range.

As for the tang, he looks great. eating like a pig, his bright blue color is coming back. I do not see any clusters of white specks that I saw earlier this week prior to ordering the coppersafe.

I don't mention the midas blenny because he is the Tangs sidekick. Always nipping at the tangs nori sheet, and swimming near and around the tang.

So if I'm indeed at therapeutic levels (it's so very hard to tell on the api color test), then my 30 day clock starts now.

 

[Crashjack]

I started a similar thread before I saw this one. I’m getting similar results to what Reefaholic got in the second video. At dosing 1.05 ml per gallon, I’m getting right at 2 mg/l on Chemetrics. I know I have some potential margin of error with my gallons and milliliters. Reefaholic measured 1.25 ml per gallon and did so fairly precisely and got between 2 and 3 on Chemetrics.

I sent an email to Chemetrics as either the tests aren't accurate or the dosing isn't accurate.

 

[dealseer]

I started a similar thread before I saw this one. I’m getting similar results to what Reefaholic got in the second video. At dosing 1.05 ml per gallon, I’m getting right at 2 mg/l on Chemetrics. I know I have some potential margin of error with my gallons and milliliters. Reefaholic measured 1.25 ml per gallon and did so fairly precisely and got between 2 and 3 on Chemetrics.

I sent an email to Chemetrics as either the tests aren't accurate or the dosing isn't accurate.

I completely agree. At 1.9 ml per gallon, I’m reading 3.0 on Chemetrics.

 

[Brew12]

I started a similar thread before I saw this one. I’m getting similar results to what Reefaholic got in the second video. At dosing 1.05 ml per gallon, I’m getting right at 2 mg/l on Chemetrics. I know I have some potential margin of error with my gallons and milliliters. Reefaholic measured 1.25 ml per gallon and did so fairly precisely and got between 2 and 3 on Chemetrics.

I sent an email to Chemetrics as either the tests aren't accurate or the dosing isn't accurate.

I completely agree. At 1.9 ml per gallon, I’m reading 3.0 on Chemetrics.

This is disturbing. Other members have used Chemetrics to measure copper that agreed with what I posted.

I see 3 possibilities.

1) Chemetrics aren't accurate
2) Fritz doesn't know the content of their own product
3) The product chemistry is very inconsistent

None of the 3 is good.

 

[coweyes298]

This is disturbing. Other members have used Chemetrics to measure copper that agreed with what I posted.

I see 3 possibilities.

1) Chemetrics aren't accurate
2) Fritz doesn't know the content of their own product
3) The product chemistry is very inconsistent

None of the 3 is good.

Yep. We need to figure this out. Me as well dosing 2 ml/gallon coppersafe and get close to 3ppm on Chematirc kit. Need to lower the copper by WC several times to get it down to 2 ppm...Happened twice to me. First time was this July. I had fish finished copper treatment at the first time per chematirc kit 2ppm and they are still free of ich till today. Second time is this month. Still less than 2 ml /gallon to achieve 2 ppm concentration.

 

[coweyes298]

This is disturbing. Other members have used Chemetrics to measure copper that agreed with what I posted.

I see 3 possibilities.

1) Chemetrics aren't accurate
2) Fritz doesn't know the content of their own product
3) The product chemistry is very inconsistent

None of the 3 is good.

And can we confirm where does the 2ml/gallon coppersafe dosage come from (I think it is from Mardel/Fritz)? I skim back this thread and as Reefholic's video said 1.2ml/gallon to measured 2ppm using chematric. This was what I followed since this July till now. After that thread Brew and humble stated it will be safe to dose 2ml/gallon to get to 2ppm. I don't trust API test since it is useless for me (different color shade, too small diameter of the vial, water will have some impurity and the color is just not match compared to their color chart)

 

[pdiehm]

Yep. We need to figure this out. Me as well dosing 2 ml/gallon coppersafe and get close to 3ppm on Chematirc kit. Need to lower the copper by WC several times to get it down to 2 ppm...Happened twice to me. First time was this July. I had fish finished copper treatment at the first time per chematirc kit 2ppm and they are still free of ich till today. Second time is this month. Still less than 2 ml /gallon to achieve 2 ppm concentration.

Spoke to someone locally and says the proper dose is 1.25ml/gallon. Been doing it this way for 20 years without any return of Ich or Velvet.

Had me remove 15 gallons of my water and dose 5 ml back in. Estimates my ml of copper safe to be about 47ml with the water change.

Also said to not trust API copper test for chelated copper. Just use the dosage on the container and leave for 30 days, treating top-off water with same coppersafe dosage.

 

[coweyes298]

Spoke to someone locally and says the proper dose is 1.25ml/gallon. Been doing it this way for 20 years without any return of Ich or Velvet.

Had me remove 15 gallons of my water and dose 5 ml back in. Estimates my ml of copper safe to be about 47ml with the water change.

Also said to not trust API copper test for chelated copper. Just use the dosage on the container and leave for 30 days, treating top-off water with same coppersafe dosage.

The top off water info you get might be wrong. It should be topping off with fresh water but no coppersafe pre dose. Water will evaporate but not salt nor copper. I only top off pure RODI water to QT. Copper level are still the same.

 

[pdiehm]

ok. didn't know that copper did not evaporate with the water. Good to know.

 

[Brew12]

And can we confirm where does the 2ml/gallon coppersafe dosage come from (I think it is from Mardel/Fritz)?

I had a fairly lengthy email exchange with Fritz about this. They recommend dosing 5ml per 4 gallons or 1.25ml/g. They state that this works out to a concentration of 1.16ppm.

Fritz made Coppersafe for Mardel for a few years before acquiring the rights to it but they were not the original manufacturer. As of that email exchange several months ago they were still researching the actual effective dose required. Since they haven't completed that research they are continuing to use Mardels original dosing recommendations.

The dosing recommendation of 1.5ppm to 2ppm come from @Humblefish based on testing he has done. He is one of the people I reached out to who tested it using Chemetrics and felt that the 2.1ml/g looked like 2ppm copper.


Very frustrating!

 

[Brew12]

Well crud... this isn't getting any better. I went to go look at the accuracy claims on the Chemetrics test kit and found this.

https://www.chemetrics.com/index.ph...e=copper.pdf.37bd5e3fa1095d699a8b9e8eaba68bab
"Interference Information: This chemistry measures fully ionized solubilized copper. It does not measure suspended, insoluble particulate copper, copper attached to large organic molecules, or chelated copper."

They won't even claim that their test kits can be used on chelated copper like Coppersafe.

 

[Crashjack]

Well crud... this isn't getting any better. I went to go look at the accuracy claims on the Chemetrics test kit and found this.

https://www.chemetrics.com/index.ph...e=copper.pdf.37bd5e3fa1095d699a8b9e8eaba68bab
"Interference Information: This chemistry measures fully ionized solubilized copper. It does not measure suspended, insoluble particulate copper, copper attached to large organic molecules, or chelated copper."

They won't even claim that their test kits can be used on chelated copper like Coppersafe.

Yeah, I saw that too when I went to find an email address for them... asked my question anyway. What is confusing is that they list some problems with some things that interfere, where the issue manifests itself at high levels.
My hope is that though it might measure high, there is some consistency. Hence, I could start with a particular dose, get a reading, and then try to maintain that reading, even if it is 3 mg/l or whatever. API is useless. The same sample looks different based on lighting, where you are looking, how you hold your mouth, etc. Last time, I took pictures of reference samples and five pictures of the same sample looked different. I just don't believe there is any true way to tell with API. My guess is, fish are more tolerant to chelated copper than we think, and parasites are less tolerant than we think. Otherwise, people would be killing fish left and right, and chelated copper would rarely work in the elimination of external parasites.

 

[Brew12]

I just don't believe there is any true way to tell with API.

I agree with this! That is why I started digging into this topic. I couldn't make sense of my API test kit. To me, I was trying to compare something orange to something tan.

That is why I go based on measurements and not test readings. Knowing that 1.25ml/g works out to 1.16ppm (according to Fritz) I did the math to figure out that around 2.1ml/g works out to 2ppm.

 

[coweyes298]

I had a fairly lengthy email exchange with Fritz about this. They recommend dosing 5ml per 4 gallons or 1.25ml/g. They state that this works out to a concentration of 1.16ppm.

Fritz made Coppersafe for Mardel for a few years before acquiring the rights to it but they were not the original manufacturer. As of that email exchange several months ago they were still researching the actual effective dose required. Since they haven't completed that research they are continuing to use Mardels original dosing recommendations.

The dosing recommendation of 1.5ppm to 2ppm come from @Humblefish based on testing he has done. He is one of the people I reached out to who tested it using Chemetrics and felt that the 2.1ml/g looked like 2ppm copper.


Very frustrating!

We just opened a can of worm!!! At least it is a good worm if we manage it right.

 

[Humblefish]

Well crud... this isn't getting any better. I went to go look at the accuracy claims on the Chemetrics test kit and found this.

https://www.chemetrics.com/index.ph...e=copper.pdf.37bd5e3fa1095d699a8b9e8eaba68bab
"Interference Information: This chemistry measures fully ionized solubilized copper. It does not measure suspended, insoluble particulate copper, copper attached to large organic molecules, or chelated copper."

They won't even claim that their test kits can be used on chelated copper like Coppersafe.

Might have to switch over to Hach for testing chelated copper: https://www.hach.com/copper-free-to...it-model-cu-6/product-downloads?id=7640217308

The test procedure measures free copper and total dissolved copper. Free copper is the free copper ion or weakly chelated copper ion in solution. Total dissolved copper is the sum of free copper and complexed copper. Complexed (chelated) copper is copper that is tightly bound to another compound, as in the copper EDTA complex.

Source: https://www.hach.com/asset-get.download.jsa?id=7639982766

 

[Crashjack]

I got a response back from Chemetrics. My question and Chemetrics response:

Me: I purchased your kit Copper (soluble) — CHEMets® Visual Kit Catalog No.: K-3510 to measure copper levels when treating saltwater fish. The copper product I'm using is Coppersafe (chelated copper). The test results I'm getting are higher than what it should be based on the dosage listed on the bottle, and I'm trying to determine which is accurate. I've dosed approximately 1.05 ml of the product per gallon, which should yield a little over 1 mg/l of copper. I'm getting 2.0, spot-on with your test kit. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Technical Services Rep: Are you waiting only one minute for the color to develop instead of 2 minutes (see Test Method section of instructions)?

Please note that the accuracy of this kit is +/- one color standard increment. Therefore, a 1 ppm standard can read from 0.8 – 2 ppm.

Best regards,

If I'm understanding, the margin of error is huge for our purposes. If color standard increments are particular to copper testing in general, and if the values within the standard increments get broader as concentrations get higher, it probably explains why Chemectrics makes a shift from low range to high range at 1.0 and why API's scale is so crazy-- doubling the value at every increment (0, .25, .5, 1.0, 2.0, 4.0). I'm guessing that API's margin of error is no better if not worse than Chemectrics, not to mention that it doesn't matter because the test is unreadable. It is looking to me like chelated copper is unmeasurable (for the values we want to measure) with a reasonably priced test kit. I'm getting close to the opinion that one should either: 1) Pick some value for dosing chelated copper and let ride, or maybe add a little every few days just in case any is lost, or 2) Use ionic copper and measure.

 

[Crashjack]

Might have to switch over to Hach for testing chelated copper: https://www.hach.com/copper-free-to...it-model-cu-6/product-downloads?id=7640217308


Source: https://www.hach.com/asset-get.download.jsa?id=7639982766

I looked but couldn’t find a video. I would like to see the color wheel and margin of error. I just feel like I keep getting burned on test kits.

 

[Brew12]

I looked but couldn’t find a video. I would like to see the color wheel and margin of error. I just feel like I keep getting burned on test kits.

Agreed.

Which is why I measure it out and then sample with my API kit. I use that sample as the reference I try to maintain. I do find the API kits to be consistent, even if they aren't accurate.