Proper dosing of Coppersafe

[Brew12]

Thank bud I didn't take the math the right way on a mildly caffinataed brain
Yes it makes perfect sense.

In the video he states it's a 20g tank. He doesn't ever state that it's only holding 16g of water. If he did that calculation it wasn't in the video that I saw. Per my math above if he did calculate 16.5g of water he did dose correct to Fritz and did come out at 1.14ppm which is close.

If he was dosing for 20g he dosed 4ml/g and undershot the formula of 5ml/g. Which curiously enough had he said a 20gL holds 20g and dosed the 25ml for 20g he would have come to 1.51mL/g which would have been the very bottom end of therapeutic range based on the fact that it holds 16.5G.

No problem. This topic is awful. Heck, it took me 3 tries just to get the right numbers posted. I think that is why I sat on the information as long as I did instead of making a post earlier.

These copper test kits are very tough to read. It's amazing anyone can successfully use these copper products.

 

[Reefahholic]

I could see the level very good. It was right around 2 ppm. Hard to see on my phone. What I'd like to see is the high range in .1 increments just as the low range is.

There are several high end testers on the market. $$$$$$ We need for somebody to purchase the best out there and Test copper levels in a controlled setting to further the research in our hobby.

Well that is interesting. It does confusing things. This is something a few of us have been discussing behind the scenes for quite awhile. I will share some correspondence we received from Fritz.

"In the absence of hard data, Fritz elected to utilize the standard recommended dosage for the public aquarium/zoo and aquaculture industries which is 0.15 -.20 mg/l or ppm (Noga E. 2010. Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment. 2nd Ed. Ames (IA): Wiley-Blackwell. p. 391-393.) This was done to protect consumers and prevent overdoses. We also began a research program into chelated copper sulfate pentahydrate. We also examined the Customer Service databases provided to us by Sergeants; it is clear that this formulation, which has been unchanged for decades, is one of the safest products available on the market.

Our research has determined that when used per label directions Coppersafe will yield a copper level of 1.16 to 1.17 ppm. At this level there are no fish mortalities in controlled experiments. Gill damage is not observed in treated fish exposed to this dosage level. This is due to the sophisticated chelating agent used on the formula."

So what comes directly from Fritz is that they recommend 0.15ppm to 0.20ppm but dosing per labeled direction comes to 1.16ppm to 1.17ppm. I personally don't have a Chemetrics test kit, but the 1.15ppm was verified by 2 members using them.

I'm at a bit of a loss to explain the video. The only thing I can think of us that the actinic light from the aquarium messed with the color. Regardless of which copper test kit is used, we have found it best to read in natural sunlight.

 

[Reefahholic]

Thank bud I didn't take the math the right way on a mildly caffinataed brain
Yes it makes perfect sense.

In the video he states it's a 20g tank. He doesn't ever state that it's only holding 16g of water. If he did that calculation it wasn't in the video that I saw. Per my math above if he did calculate 16.5g of water he did dose correct to Fritz and did come out at 1.14ppm which is close.

If he was dosing for 20g he dosed 4ml/g and undershot the formula of 5ml/g. Which curiously enough had he said a 20gL holds 20g and dosed the 25ml for 20g he would have come to 1.51mL/g which would have been the very bottom end of therapeutic range based on the fact that it holds 16.5G.

I assumed that a 20/L was 20 gallons. The same way I assume a 5/G bucket is 5 gallons.

Let's go deeper. If you fill a "known" 20 gallon or 10 gallon tank up. Do you fill it to the tip top or to the bottom of the trim. I guess everything makes a difference.

With that said, you guys tell me the exact vessel to use and I'll do another test and post up. Only takes about 2 minutes.

 

[Reefahholic]

I tell you what, give a few hours and check back here. We won't play around this time. I work in a Hospital and will use accurate measuring cups this time. We'll test 1 gallon of water.

5 ml per 4 gallons = 1.25 ml per 1 gallon.

 

[Brew12]

I could see the level very good. It was right around 2 ppm. Hard to see on my phone. What I'd like to see is the high range in .1 increments just as the low range is.

There are several high end testers on the market. $$$$$$ We need for somebody to purchase the best out there and Test copper levels in a controlled setting to further the research in our hobby.

This is fantastic! I had no idea that you did that video, I thought you found it.

I would love to see a measured 1 gallon with 1.25mL of coppersafe. Per Fritz, that should be 1.16ppm to 1.17ppm.

 

[Reefahholic]

This is fantastic! I had no idea that you did that video, I thought you found it.

I would love to see a measured 1 gallon with 1.25mL of coppersafe. Per Fritz, that should be 1.16ppm to 1.17ppm.

Give me a few and I'll get it done. I'm in my hooooot garage working on my stand doors. The heat in Texas ain't no joke. I'm gonna go inside to cool off and I'll measure it out and document the whole process. I'll get back to these doors later tonight. See you guys back here.

 

[reburn]

It's quite pleasant in Austin today.

A 40b, 20gL any of these aquariums don't hold the water they say they do. Aquarium gallonages are routinely calculated by measuring the outside dimensions. For example my 300g. It's 96x24x30. Outside dimensions calculate to 299.2. However it's built out of 3/4" glass so you must subtract 1.5" from the length and width. Height is a bit trickier. However it has 3/4" glass on the bottom and 3/4 euro bracing on the top. So minus 1.5". But the water line is down an inch due to the overflow. So now it's down 2.5". Do take those measurements off the totals. So 94.5 X 22.4 X 27.5 now the tank is only 253.1 gallons. I've immediately dropped 46.1 gallons just calculating the inside dimensions. The same applies for sumps. You basically have to take the running water level and then take out for the dividers. A 100g sump will probably only run with 50 gallons of water in it.

Here is a good calculator
http://www.firsttankguide.net/calculator.php

 

[melypr1985]

It's quite pleasant in Austin today.

A 40b, 20gL any of these aquariums don't hold the water they say they do. Aquarium gallonages are routinely calculated by measuring the outside dimensions. For example my 300g. It's 96x24x30. Outside dimensions calculate to 299.2. However it's built out of 3/4" glass so you must subtract 1.5" from the length and width. Height is a bit trickier. However it has 3/4" glass on the bottom and 3/4 euro bracing on the top. So minus 1.5". But the water line is down an inch due to the overflow. So now it's down 2.5". Do take those measurements off the totals. So 94.5 X 22.4 X 27.5 now the tank is only 253.1 gallons. I've immediately dropped 46.1 gallons just calculating the inside dimensions. The same applies for sumps. You basically have to take the running water level and then take out for the dividers. A 100g sump will probably only run with 50 gallons of water in it.

Here is a good calculator
http://www.firsttankguide.net/calculator.php

It's depressing but good info.

 

[Reefahholic]

Sorry for the delay guys.

 

[Brew12]

Sorry for the delay guys.

And I can't watch videos at work.

Can't wait to see what your findings were later today!

 

[Areseebee]

So adding 1.25mL of coppersafe gave a reading just north of 2 ppm. Which is consistent with the directions.

It's consistent with your first video where you did 20mL into ~16 gallons and got the same reading for the same dose. So how do we account for Mardel saying that this dose should give you 1.15? Can we just not read test kits? Are they wrong? This is literally fish poison, it shouldn't be this foggy.

 

[Brew12]

So I went back to Fritz asking about the results on the Chemetrics test sets not being the same between multiple users. They were not able to provide any information on this test kit in particular, but I do have permission from the to share this.

For those who don't know the background on this product, it was developed many years ago by a different company. Eventually, Fritz was given specific information on how to make the product for Sergeants but none of the technical information. Eventually, Seargents wanted to discontinue producing Coppersafe and the rights to the entire Mardel line were sold to Fritz. At that point, Mardel turned over the technical information to Fritz. Fritz found this data incomplete and contradictory. This was early 2015.
One thing that is important is that they are comfortable saying that the recommended dose is "safe". That is not the same as effective. It does sound like they are working at doing more testing to try and develop better dosing information. For those of us frustrated by the lack of good information, it actually sounds like they are, too. Hopefully their testing will be complete fairly soon so that they can offer better guidance.

I know.. more mud in the water.

 

[Reefahholic]

I like CHEMetrics because I feel it's accurate. What I don't like about the high range is that instead of having the comparator in tenths like the low range it's in whole numbers. This leaves a lot more guess work. Guessing between 1 & 2 or 2 & 3 is tricky.

With cupramine, I could use the low range in tenths. A lot easier. Either way, the test still shows around 2 ppm or more.

 

[Brew12]

I like CHEMetrics because I feel it's accurate. What I don't like about the high range is that instead of having the comparator in tenths like the low range it's in whole numbers. This leaves a lot more guess work. Guessing between 1 & 2 or 2 & 3 is tricky.

With cupramine, I could use the low range in tenths. A lot easier. Either way, the test still shows around 2 ppm or more.

Great video!

At this point, I am more than a little baffled. Your methodology sure looked spot on. Looks like I need to order myself a CHEMetrics kit so I can do some testing on my own.

 

[Ocelaris]

So it sounds like 1.25ml per gallon is what will hit the high end of the therapeutic range. I'll start tonight after recalculating my 40 breeder measurements. Thanks again everyone for their hard work with this problem. Just goes to show what a team effort looks like.

 

[Brew12]

So it sounds like 1.25ml per gallon is what will hit the high end of the therapeutic range. I'll start tonight after recalculating my 40 breeder measurements. Thanks again everyone for their hard work with this problem. Just goes to show what a team effort looks like.

I would consider that on the very low end of the therapeutic range. I've had success dosing at 1.8mL/g. I know @melypr1985 doses to 2.1mL/g in her store which is the high end of therapeutic.

Really need to find a consistent way to test that works for everyone. Or maybe we just don't understand what the test kits are telling us.

 

[Ocelaris]

Doh, misread... I guess I'll be going with the 1.8 mL/g - 2.1 mL/g range.

Just a thought, do we have the chemical ratio for the product? I suspect not if it's proprietary; but they could probably give us the molecular weight per mL and we could calculate it based on that? i.e. if we're measuring pure Copper ions, we should be able to surmise the ratio? But if it's not as straight forward with organic chelation, not sure if we can get to that. Just wondering how they "know" they dosed 2.0 ppm, and got lousy results.

 

[TonapahNorth]

This needs to be "stickied."

 

[Brew12]

Doh, misread... I guess I'll be going with the 1.8 mL/g - 2.1 mL/g range.

Just a thought, do we have the chemical ratio for the product? I suspect not if it's proprietary; but they could probably give us the molecular weight per mL and we could calculate it based on that? i.e. if we're measuring pure Copper ions, we should be able to surmise the ratio? But if it's not as straight forward with organic chelation, not sure if we can get to that. Just wondering how they "know" they dosed 2.0 ppm, and got lousy results.

They have told us that 5mL/4g (1.25mL/g) gives 1.16ppm to 1.17ppm based on their calculations.

Nothing about this is straightforward or easy. At least they admit that they are confused by it, also, so we shouldn't feel bad.

Straight from their website.
"The unique formulation of Coppersafe® solution maintains a total copper level of .15 ppm to .20 ppm when used as directed. Copper test kits that measure Chelated Copper will help you to actively monitor copper levels when using Coppersafe® solution."

Yet, their recommended dose comes to 1.16ppm, not 0.15ppm and they admit that there are no hobby level test kits that are accurate for their product. I asked them why they don't change it, and it is because they are still testing to figure out what to change it too. Since this is verbage that has been used since they started making the product in 2007 (as a supplier for Sergeants) they don't want to cause more confusion by possibly having to change it a few times.

 

[Ocelaris]

Has anyone tried making crystals out of this stuff? We used to make copper sulfate crystals as kids. Also a 40 breeder 36x16x18 nominal with 1/4 or 3/8 glass is actually a bit more than 40 gallons. So I'm doing 2ml/G for 40 gallons over 4 days to bring it up to somewhere in the middle of the therapeutic range. So 20mL x 4 days = 80 mL.