Question About Quarantining - Getting Into The Specifics

[TheSaltyCPA]

Fish medics, I pose a simple question. If you receive a new shipment of fish in, and immediately drop the fish into therapeutic levels of copper for 10 days at 2.0 to 2.5 ppm, and maintain 80 degrees temperature, and then transfer them to a sterile tank, based on life cycle of ich, shouldn’t the ich be completely eradicated? As in, it cannot be found in the new sterile tank?

This of course means not reusing any equipment, maintaining 10 feet of distance, etc.

But my understanding is that…if ich stays on the gills of the fish for 4 to 7 days during its feeding stage, after it drops off, encysts (then dies upon hatching), it never had the opportunity to reinfect the fish and the fish have effectively had the ich removed and will not be found in the fish’s new tank.

Why do we recommend 30 days of copper everywhere? It seems tough on the fish. Is that because most people don’t have a second sterile quarantine tank to transfer to so best practice is to extend copper?

Thanks! Been in the hobby eight years and am always learning. @Jay Hemdal @Humblefish

 

[vetteguy53081]

Fish medics, I pose a simple question. If you receive a new shipment of fish in, and immediately drop the fish into therapeutic levels of copper for 10 days at 2.0 to 2.5 ppm, and maintain 80 degrees temperature, and then transfer them to a sterile tank, based on life cycle of ich, shouldn’t the ich be completely eradicated? As in, it cannot be found in the new sterile tank?

This of course means not reusing any equipment, maintaining 10 feet of distance, etc.

But my understanding is that…if ich stays on the gills of the fish for 4 to 7 days during its feeding stage, after it drops off, encysts (then dies upon hatching), it never had the opportunity to reinfect the fish and the fish have effectively had the ich removed and will not be found in the fish’s new tank.

Why do we recommend 30 days of copper everywhere? It seems tough on the fish. Is that because most people don’t have a second sterile quarantine tank to transfer to so best practice is to extend copper?

Thanks! Been in the hobby eight years and am always learning. @Jay Hemdal @Humblefish

The life cycle of most protozoans is at least 21 days and we recommend 30 to assure they are completely eradicated. It takes copper 24-48 to begin taking effect and 10 days is simply not enough. Coppersafe and copper power starts to take effect at 2.0 and we recommend 2.25ppm up to 2.5 as it is safe for most fish
When protozoans fall off, they generally reproduces going through their various life stages

 

[TheSaltyCPA]

Fish medics, I pose a simple question. If you receive a new shipment of fish in, and immediately drop the fish into therapeutic levels of copper for 10 days at 2.0 to 2.5 ppm, and maintain 80 degrees temperature, and then transfer them to a sterile tank, based on life cycle of ich, shouldn’t the ich be completely eradicated? As in, it cannot be found in the new sterile tank?

This of course means not reusing any equipment, maintaining 10 feet of distance, etc.

But my understanding is that…if ich stays on the gills of the fish for 4 to 7 days during its feeding stage, after it drops off, encysts (then dies upon hatching), it never had the opportunity to reinfect the fish and the fish have effectively had the ich removed and will not be found in the fish’s new tank.

Why do we recommend 30 days of copper everywhere? It seems tough on the fish. Is that because most people don’t have a second sterile quarantine tank to transfer to so best practice is to extend copper?

Thanks! Been in the hobby eight years and am always learning. @Jay Hemdal @Humblefish

The life cycle of most protozoans is at least 21 days and we recommend 30 to assure they are completely eradicated. It takes copper 24-48 to begin taking effect and 10 days is simply not enough. Coppersafe and copper power starts to take effect at 2.0 and we recommend 2.25ppm up to 2.5 as it is safe for most fish
When protozoans fall off, they generally reproduces going through their various life stages

I wanted to tag you Vette but couldn’t find your handle. I see your info all around here too, thanks a ton for what you contribute to the community!

Yes. I understand the life cycle of ich.

The trophont feeds on the fish ~3–7 days, the protomont drops off and crawls on surfaces for a few hours, the tomont encysts and multiplies ~3–28 days, (but can go longer in cooler temps), and the theront (free-swimming infective stage ~6–48 hrs).

The only stage you can reliably kill in the water column is the theront.

So I pose the question again. If copper kills the theront upon hatching from the encysted stage, copper at therapeutic levels for 10 days, and then transferred to a sterile environment should be sufficient to eradicate, yes? Here’s why I ask.

Let’s say the fish arrives with Ich attached to its body and gills. You immediately drop it in the therapeutic copper. The ich feeds for 3 to 7 days and then drops off. The fish can no longer be reinfected as the tomont encysts and the free swimming theront die immediately upon hatching within 3 to 40+ days. There is never another opportunity for the ich to reinfect the fish (as long as therapeutic levels are maintained) because the theront is killed before it can reattach to the fish for feeding.

After all trophonts have dropped off the fish (10 days should be sufficient as they feed for 3 to 7 days), if you move the fish to a second sterile tank, that tank should be free of ich. What am I missing here?

Thanks! @vetteguy53081

 

[sgdnycct]

I’ve always wondered the same! Following!

 

[TheSaltyCPA]

I’ve always wondered the same! Following!

I’m sure there are reasons but I want to hear it from the people who preach the gospel. I quarantine everything wet, and take it religiously, but don’t want to subject the critters to anything more than they need. Hoping to get some good explanations or hear that I’m right, and that it’s just not recommended for the average hobbyist due to margin for error being tight.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I wanted to tag you Vette but couldn’t find your handle. I see your info all around here too, thanks a ton for what you contribute to the community!

Yes. I understand the life cycle of ich.

The trophont feeds on the fish ~3–7 days, the protomont drops off and crawls on surfaces for a few hours, the tomont encysts and multiplies ~3–28 days, (but can go longer in cooler temps), and the theront (free-swimming infective stage ~6–48 hrs).

The only stage you can reliably kill in the water column is the theront.

So I pose the question again. If copper kills the theront upon hatching from the encysted stage, copper at therapeutic levels for 10 days, and then transferred to a sterile environment should be sufficient to eradicate, yes? Here’s why I ask.

Let’s say the fish arrives with Ich attached to its body and gills. You immediately drop it in the therapeutic copper. The ich feeds for 3 to 7 days and then drops off. The fish can no longer be reinfected as the tomont encysts and the free swimming theront die immediately upon hatching within 3 to 40+ days. There is never another opportunity for the ich to reinfect the fish (as long as therapeutic levels are maintained) because the theront is killed before it can reattach to the fish for feeding.

After all trophonts have dropped off the fish (10 days should be sufficient as they feed for 3 to 7 days), if you move the fish to a second sterile tank, that tank should be free of ich. What am I missing here?

Thanks! @vetteguy53081

With copper, the chemical disrupts the cellular activity within the free-swimming stage and as it falls off, it gets to the bottom and then produces hundreds of free swimming theronts who are able to attach to the fish (reason many say it was gone then came back). The copper interupts their ability to swim and feed but this happens over a period of time which is 10-14 days and you want to assure you have stopped these stages completely and reason we state 30 days to assure reproduction has ceased completely with complete effectiveness

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Fish medics, I pose a simple question. If you receive a new shipment of fish in, and immediately drop the fish into therapeutic levels of copper for 10 days at 2.0 to 2.5 ppm, and maintain 80 degrees temperature, and then transfer them to a sterile tank, based on life cycle of ich, shouldn’t the ich be completely eradicated? As in, it cannot be found in the new sterile tank?

This of course means not reusing any equipment, maintaining 10 feet of distance, etc.

But my understanding is that…if ich stays on the gills of the fish for 4 to 7 days during its feeding stage, after it drops off, encysts (then dies upon hatching), it never had the opportunity to reinfect the fish and the fish have effectively had the ich removed and will not be found in the fish’s new tank.

Why do we recommend 30 days of copper everywhere? It seems tough on the fish. Is that because most people don’t have a second sterile quarantine tank to transfer to so best practice is to extend copper?

Thanks! Been in the hobby eight years and am always learning. @Jay Hemdal @Humblefish

It's complicated - there are a number of people who suggest something similar to what you are describing. This is sort of a hybrid Tank Transfer Method, using copper instead of just moving the fish three times to three sterile tanks. However, even a second sterile tank is more than many people are able to do.

The reasons I don't recommend it are that the Cryptocaryon live cycle is not as "cut and dry" as some people try to make it out to be - there is lots of variation. That makes any treatment based on short time frames less likely to work.

I advocate for the use of much less toxic copper products (Coppersafe and Copper Power). However, those are also slower to work. It can take five days or more to start to break the life cycle.

Also, it is possible for the tomont resting stage to be carried from tank to tank on the fish net, or caught up in the fish's mucus - carrying the infection over to the new tank.

Finally, there is always the risk of Amyloodinium (velvet) in new fish. The life cycle of that is different than ich, it can maintain the resting stage in the fish's gills, so it gets moved on to the new tank.

 

[TheSaltyCPA]

Fish medics, I pose a simple question. If you receive a new shipment of fish in, and immediately drop the fish into therapeutic levels of copper for 10 days at 2.0 to 2.5 ppm, and maintain 80 degrees temperature, and then transfer them to a sterile tank, based on life cycle of ich, shouldn’t the ich be completely eradicated? As in, it cannot be found in the new sterile tank?

This of course means not reusing any equipment, maintaining 10 feet of distance, etc.

But my understanding is that…if ich stays on the gills of the fish for 4 to 7 days during its feeding stage, after it drops off, encysts (then dies upon hatching), it never had the opportunity to reinfect the fish and the fish have effectively had the ich removed and will not be found in the fish’s new tank.

Why do we recommend 30 days of copper everywhere? It seems tough on the fish. Is that because most people don’t have a second sterile quarantine tank to transfer to so best practice is to extend copper?

Thanks! Been in the hobby eight years and am always learning. @Jay Hemdal @Humblefish

It's complicated - there are a number of people who suggest something similar to what you are describing. This is sort of a hybrid Tank Transfer Method, using copper instead of just moving the fish three times to three sterile tanks. However, even a second sterile tank is more than many people are able to do.

The reasons I don't recommend it are that the Cryptocaryon live cycle is not as "cut and dry" as some people try to make it out to be - there is lots of variation. That makes any treatment based on short time frames less likely to work.

I advocate for the use of much less toxic copper products (Coppersafe and Copper Power). However, those are also slower to work. It can take five days or more to start to break the life cycle.

Also, it is possible for the tomont resting stage to be carried from tank to tank on the fish net, or caught up in the fish's mucus - carrying the infection over to the new tank.

Finally, there is always the risk of Amyloodinium (velvet) in new fish. The life cycle of that is different than ich, it can maintain the resting stage in the fish's gills, so it gets moved on to the new tank.

Hey man. You’re great and you do a ton for the community. I really appreciate the insight!!! Always trying to learn even after 8 years in the hobby!

Would you reckon 14 days would be better in lieu of 10, or should I ditch that train of thought and go a full 30 days and then transfer to the sterile tank and continue QT. Obviously more time is always better, but I want to split hairs and get into the specifics (hence the title of the post). I’d think velvet could be caught with 14 days of copper? I’ve got a ton of livestock in my 300 gallon DT, and am absolutely not willing to risk it but it’s fun to talk hypothetically.

I try and be observant of the fish, and if it’s a fish like a fairy wrasse (I always find them to be sensitive) I want them out of the copper as soon as possible.

I’m sort of leaning towards a full 30
days based on what you’re saying, but I want to heard your thoughts further if you’ve got the time!

I also drop them into straight therapeutic levels, whereas I’m believing I need to do a ramp up of copper over 48 to 72 hours, which may help with sensitive fish.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hey man. You’re great and you do a ton for the community. I really appreciate the insight!!! Always trying to learn even after 8 years in the hobby!

Would you reckon 14 days would be better in lieu of 10, or should I ditch that train of thought and go a full 30 days and then transfer to the sterile tank and continue QT. Obviously more time is always better, but I want to split hairs and get into the specifics (hence the title of the post). I’d think velvet could be caught with 14 days of copper? I’ve got a ton of livestock in my 300 gallon DT, and am absolutely not willing to risk it but it’s fun to talk hypothetically.

I try and be observant of the fish, and if it’s a fish like a fairy wrasse (I always find them to be sensitive) I want them out of the copper as soon as possible.

I’m sort of leaning towards a full 30
days based on what you’re saying, but I want to heard your thoughts further if you’ve got the time!

I also drop them into straight therapeutic levels, whereas I’m believing I need to do a ramp up of copper over 48 to 72 hours, which may help with sensitive fish.

30 days, followed by a praziquantel treatment in the same tank is the easiest course of action.

Wrasse are sensitive to ionic copper products, but these amine-chelated products are much safer.

You can drop fish right into full amine-chelated copper, but not with ionic coppers. Precise measurement is important in all cases. I use the Hanna HR copper checker for amine-chelated copper.