Questions about starting a new tank/cycling and adding a fish

VABullDawg · May 12, 2016

I just set up my new tank. 28g Nano Cube. I put dry live rock, CaribSea Arag-Alive Bahamas Oolite Aquarium Sand and used Imagitarium Pacific Ocean Water. I saw a video the Bulk Reef Supply guys did. I'll post it below. Start around the 3:33 mark and listen to what he says. Has anyone here ever set their tank up and put the live sand, live dry rock and water and then the next day put in the Bio-Spira and then put a fish in their tank? Then he says he won't add another fish until a month passes and the tank cycles. I'm curious to know the results from anyone on here that has actually done this. TIA!

melypr1985 · May 12, 2016

You could do that, but I would advise having lots of saltwater available to do water changes. I dont advocate letting the ammonia and nitrite rise with a fish in the tank. It's toxic to fish and without frequent water changes when they rise can cause problems for the fish.... even hardy fish like clowns. Poor fish. :(

Zero Nitrates · May 12, 2016

VABullDawg · May 12, 2016

melypr1985 said:
You could do that, but I would advise having lots of saltwater available to do water changes. I dont advocate letting the ammonia and nitrite rise with a fish in the tank. It's toxic to fish and without frequent water changes when they rise can cause problems for the fish.... even hardy fish like clowns. Poor fish. :(

I haven't decided yet. I do have about 8-9 gallons sitting here. I don't want to cause problems for the fish. I'm guessing that guy does it quite often and has been for years if he's posting that video for their company.

melypr1985 · May 12, 2016

VABullDawg said:
I haven't decided yet. I do have about 8-9 gallons sitting here. I don't want to cause problems for the fish. I'm guessing that guy does it quite often and has been for years if he's posting that video for their company.

It's never a bad thing to have patience. Most people dont have enough and end up rushing things just to end up with problems. Add the bacteria like he said, and ghost feed or put a raw shrimp in the tank to kick start the cycle. If you use all live sand and live rock, then you wont have to wait long. There's really no reason to cycle a tank with the fish in it unless you have to set up an emergency QT (which is when you certainly would want lots of water for changes available).

Naiad · May 12, 2016

Should you do it? No. Have I set up tanks and put things in as soon as sand cleared? Yes. Usually this is only due to emergency situations and the animals are far better off in a new tank then the bucket they were calling home. Generally if you have a large enough tank and use large amounts of CURED live rock on top of adding bacteria you won't see a deadly ammonia spike. Still if you can wait it will be less stressful.

Untamedrose · May 12, 2016

Not sure what his name is but this guys got a lot of good videos....but I disagree with him on this.

You cant Skip cycling...really the Q is do you wanna get it all over with it in a boring tank? or drag it the heck out and possibly harm your animals, or even crash your tank with each new addition?

Live sand and the additions really are $$ money makers thats it.

Thats why you are ONLY adding one...cause it's not cycled.

mushroomrob · May 13, 2016

I've had many experiences where adding new fish seriously spikes up the levels since the beneficial bacteria hasn't caught up to the new bioload yet. Have patience and do it right so the fish are unharmed.

brandon429 · May 13, 2016

Agreed on fish, no rush and no guessing off arbitrary times. A cycle has a testable ending we can measure and predict beforehand.

http://reef2reef.com/threads/new-ta...d-cocktail-shrimp-live-rock-no-shrimp.214618/

This covers skip cycling, and cycling where you must get the bacteria onto the rock. Naiad's claim about rocks and sand was correct. Look at the detail that link above has regarding group b rocks, and microbiology of cycling bacteria.

A reef tank whether it had dried rocks we are cycling, or cured rocks we simply moved among tanks that do not need additional bacteria added, has a finite start point where you can add creatures and its measurable and variable depending on how much live sand and live rock is used in the beginning. I have never cycled any reef tank I've ever put online, they will always be skip cycle systems using group B rocks.

When hundreds of reef tanks are moved/setup at giant marine aquarium conventions, full reefs on display, those are all skip cycle setups built one day before events in most cases.

Untamedrose · May 13, 2016

So...you can Add all dry rock, some live sand (talking one bag here in this set up, talking serious funds in larger tanks)....and this bottle of stuffs plus ...one fish and wait a month.

Or you can add all dry rock, dry sand, no Live fish(just add dead shrimp and feed tank a cube of frozen once in a while)....and wait a month.

Or you can add All uncured live rock, dry or live sand, and no livestock (might feed a bit if you dont wanna totally kill that live.....and wait a month

Or you can add Some dry rock some live rock, dry sand some live sand, and toss a shrimp n and feed it....and wait a month.

Am I missing something here? Besides what costs 15 times more?

Your not going to skip that month... and I'm worried if you do attempt to. All you have done is created a really light bioload that wont support what your all excited to stick in that tank

brandon429 · May 13, 2016

the thread shows a step/option in addition. Add purple live rock and have the same filtration abilities on day 1 as we'd have on day 3000, the skip cycle. The way the marine aquarium conventions set up all the tanks in a day...full fish and normal coral bioloading, worthy comparison.

I for one will not use white dry rocks because I want all purple, all coralline instantly. There is good appeal in dry rock usage, control of hitchhikers mainly. For me I wouldn't want to wait the years it would require to mature into the group b rocks we show in the cycling thread above.

The way my cycling thread above applies to this thread is that things we add to the water like bacteria dosers and any wet live sand we used seem to convert ammonia as a full cycled tank would, but that's not the same as waiting for the rocks to take on bacteria and do the job with abundance since we started with dry rocks. Agreed he needs a month underwater here + bottle bac and liquid ammonia, because group A rocks were used.

When we had mentioned skip cycling, that's actually the only accurate way to deal with group B rocks which don't require extra bacteria build up times and we want to keep ammonia away from that type. Agreed no fish for cycling, we want people using liquid ammonia and a salifert ammonia test kit ideally and a shrimp is fine as well.

Untamedrose · May 13, 2016

brandon429 said:
the thread shows a step/option in addition. Add purple live rock and have the same filtration abilities on day 1 as we'd have on day 3000, the skip cycle. The way the marine aquarium conventions set up all the tanks in a day...full fish and normal coral bioloading, worthy comparison.

I for one will not use white dry rocks because I want all purple, all coralline instantly. There is good appeal in dry rock usage, control of hitchhikers mainly. For me I wouldn't want to wait the years it would require to mature into the group b rocks we show in the cycling thread above.

The way my cycling thread above applies to this thread is that things we add to the water like bacteria dosers and any wet live sand we used seem to convert ammonia, but that's not the same as waiting for the rocks to take on bacteria and do the job with abundance. Agreed he needs a month underwater here, but only because group A rocks were used. When we had mentioned skip cycling, that's actually the only accurate way to deal with group B rocks which don't require extra bacteria build up times. Agreed no fish for cycling, we want people using liquid ammonia and a salifert ammonia test kit ideally and a shrimp is fine as well.

In a good set up clean water a.....meaning you cycled it right coralline takes a few months not years. Now if you skip the worst of the cycling...and drag it out with spikes ya....it going to take a bit.

And "Purple rock" is maybe a location issue......... Live rock with good coraline is at best a week out of the ocean for most the US. Pull one of your rocks out for a week see what happens(please dont) Most live rock into the US is 60% Dead dying and going into a tank not ready to handle all that.

So no sticking purple rock isnt an instant cycle.

and aquarium conventions...no they dont spend a month cycling tanks, they spend years building up a system to handle and stress the critters out for a day or two. Need to look behind the curtian on this one...like saying the 4h keeps sheep in 6x6 pens to raise to show off. This isnt a good long term example.

I buy a fish like I buy a dog...I expect to have it for YEARS not a weekend not a month. and building up a good bio load is part of that.

brandon429 · May 13, 2016

we included links of maricultured rock with no cycle, group b tanks with no recycle...we show how to select cured rocks to avoid that pitfall you mentioned.

showed in the link how aquarium shops pre cure their live rock...can smell it to understand its cure levels...you are describing uncured rock, we wait for that type to stop leaking free ammonia for that section of the thread

The pics of holding vats were cured rock, it's where my reefs originate we just wanted to show how to find the non rotten stuff.

When we move cured group b rocks among tanks simply nothing occurs but bacteria being moved around comfortably and continuing what they did in the prior setup.

Regarding the temporary abilities of convention tanks you were mentioning I can't think of a way the live rocks and live sand handle raw ammonia bioload for two days such that there is no ammonia or nitrite, and then fail by the next week. Due to abundance of surface area in live rock and surfaces, once they pass the digestion test they retain that ability until medicated or forcibly stopped.

The goal for the example thread was to show that two groups of rocks comprise about 90% of starting reef tanks, and what we do with ammonia is polar opposite among these types of rocks. the nature of inherent bacteria is polar opposite between the groups as well. The goal isn't to incite reef anarchy it's just to match a start date with repeatable clues so that no arbitrary timeframes are assumed and to group rock types into known cycle time frames.

VABullDawg · May 13, 2016

brandon429 said:
Agreed on fish, no rush and no guessing off arbitrary times. A cycle has a testable ending we can measure and predict beforehand.

http://reef2reef.com/threads/new-ta...d-cocktail-shrimp-live-rock-no-shrimp.214618/

This covers skip cycling, and cycling where you must get the bacteria onto the rock. Naiad's claim about rocks and sand was correct. Look at the detail that link above has regarding group b rocks, and microbiology of cycling bacteria.

A reef tank whether it had dried rocks we are cycling, or cured rocks we simply moved among tanks that do not need additional bacteria added, has a finite start point where you can add creatures and its measurable and variable depending on how much live sand and live rock is used in the beginning. I have never cycled any reef tank I've ever put online, they will always be skip cycle systems using group B rocks.

When hundreds of reef tanks are moved/setup at giant marine aquarium conventions, full reefs on display, those are all skip cycle setups built one day before events in most cases.