Randy's Tank and Learn Thread

[dwest]

WHAT AM I MISSING?!?

BDE (RIP) We Will Miss You Baruch (Miami Reef)

Devastating news. Wish I got to know him. I’d see him all the time helping people on the forum. Smart kid who was very knowledgeable on the hobby and loved it. Condolences to him and his family, truly heartbroken.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Kingsley_Reef]

BDE (RIP) We Will Miss You Baruch (Miami Reef)

Devastating news. Wish I got to know him. I’d see him all the time helping people on the forum. Smart kid who was very knowledgeable on the hobby and loved it. Condolences to him and his family, truly heartbroken.

www.reef2reef.com

yeah i pieced it together finally, speechless....

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yeah, pretty sobering. I recently got rid of all my GFCI because they were being tripped too easily, and I didn’t know how I could reset on vacation. I definitely need to rethink things.

Strange. I’ve never had a false trip in decades of using GFCI on my reef. :)

 

[fandaga]

Wow really, not even on bad GFCI? Usually I need to replace the outside ones by my pool every few years. The interior ones will trip if the load gets too bad - like plugging in a vacuum cleaner on the same circuit with the reef tank.

 

[dwest]

Strange. I’ve never had a false trip in decades of using GFCI on my reef. :)

I had a tripping GFCI outlet that I had to replace after about 10 years of life. I also had one that would trip when I ran a UV back in the day.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wow really, not even on bad GFCI? Usually I need to replace the outside ones by my pool every few years. The interior ones will trip if the load gets too bad - like plugging in a vacuum cleaner on the same circuit with the reef tank.

No. Not sure why, but they do trip when there are incidents.

Only trip on my current tank related to the refugium lights. The outlet with those lights tripped when salt spray got on one of the lights. It would not reset until I removed that bulb. I cleaned it and dried it well and it now works again just fine. To avoid the salt spray I put a piece of window glass between each bulb and the water, so the glass gets the salt deposits, not the bulb.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I had a tripping GFCI outlet that I had to replace after about 10 years of life. I also had one that would trip when I ran a UV back in the day.

With the uv, was it an instantaneous trip when turned on, or just a random event?

 

[dwest]

With the uv, was it an instantaneous trip when turned on, or just a random event?

Random

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Random

Certainly beyond my understanding. Perhaps Bean can give some insight to such tripping.

@BeanAnimal

 

[BeanAnimal]

Certainly beyond my understanding. Perhaps Bean can give some insight to such tripping.

@BeanAnimal

GFCIs have evolved a good bit over the last 30 or so years.

The units from the 1970's were somewhat terrible. They worked, but were very prone to nuisance tripping. Surprisingly, you will still see some of these in service. They had no fail-safe so still work as receptacles even if the protection has failed!

The 80's units were better, but still not overly reliable and also nuisance tripped. I have read that they were sensitive to moisture internally (think bathroom steam). Again, you would be amazed at how many of these are still in service. I don't think that these are fail-safe either and have no internal self-test circuitry. 5 mA was the common trip current, but time to trip varied by manufacturer.

The units from the 2000's were greatly improved with better surge filtering and moisture protection. I think this is when the trip threshold of 5 mA < 25 ms was established. These units were far less prone to nuisance trips.

In 2015 UL 943 was updated to require self monitoring and lockout (you can't reset the device) if the internal diagnostics determine that the GFCI protection circuit has failed. It is my understanding that they will also not "set" if miswired.

The most current generation of GFCIs ~2020 forward have far better filtering and are very stable with regard to nuisance trips.

Nuisance trips:
A GFCI compares the current flowing out on the hot conductor to the current returning on the neutral. Any difference means current is leaking somewhere else. So, possibly through you or water, and it trips.

UL 943 specifies that a GFCI must trip when the imbalance is between 4 mA and 6 mA.

Such leaks are called faults and may result from real insulation faults. They may also not be actual faults, but rather small capacitive or inductive leakage inherent to normal devices.

If a single device is connected, it can leak up to about 4 mA before tripping. Large transformers (think MH ballasts), capacitors (LED power supplies), or motors (pumps) with poor power factor can cause brief transient imbalances when energized.

When many aquarium devices share one GFCI, each may leak a small amount (often < 1 mA) of current. This is normal and expected. However putting say, ten devices on a single GFCI might total 3.5 mA of normal leakage. A short inrush event adding just 2 mA raises the total to 5.5 mA, exceeding the trip threshold.

So why did the UV in question trip the GFCI?

Possible reasons:
Older (and even new) UVs are typically driven by core and coil ballasts. The very nature of these ballasts produce leakage current by way of capacitance and inductance, especially on startup as the core and coil saturate with energy.

Several things could have been occurring.

1 - The UV had actual leakage current that exceeded the trip threshold or pushed it right to the edge.
2 - Other devices on the circuit contributed to the total leakage and from time to time pushed past the threshold.
3 - Either of the above with an older generation device that was more prone to nuisance trips.

These conditions are common with inductive loads and do not necessarily indicate a defective UV unit.

I know that the post was long winded, but the bottom line is that current generation GFCIs are much more reliable from both a safety and nuisance tripping standpoints. There really is no reason not use them. Personal safety is paramount and there is far less risk to your aquarium than there would have been even a decade ago.

 

[fandaga]

GFCIs have evolved a good bit over the last 30 or so years.

The units from the 1970's were somewhat terrible. They worked, but were very prone to nuisance tripping. Surprisingly, you will still see some of these in service. They had no fail-safe so still work as receptacles even if the protection has failed!

The 80's units were better, but still not overly reliable and also nuisance tripped. I have read that they were sensitive to moisture internally (think bathroom steam). Again, you would be amazed at how many of these are still in service. I don't think that these are fail-safe either and have no internal self-test circuitry. 5 mA was the common trip current, but time to trip varied by manufacturer.

The units from the 2000's were greatly improved with better surge filtering and moisture protection. I think this is when the trip threshold of 5 mA < 25 ms was established. These units were far less prone to nuisance trips.

In 2015 UL 943 was updated to require self monitoring and lockout (you can't reset the device) if the internal diagnostics determine that the GFCI protection circuit has failed. It is my understanding that they will also not "set" if miswired.

The most current generation of GFCIs ~2020 forward have far better filtering and are very stable with regard to nuisance trips.

Nuisance trips:
A GFCI compares the current flowing out on the hot conductor to the current returning on the neutral. Any difference means current is leaking somewhere else. So, possibly through you or water, and it trips.

UL 943 specifies that a GFCI must trip when the imbalance is between 4 mA and 6 mA.

Such leaks are called faults and may result from real insulation faults. They may also not be actual faults, but rather small capacitive or inductive leakage inherent to normal devices.

If a single device is connected, it can leak up to about 4 mA before tripping. Large transformers (think MH ballasts), capacitors (LED power supplies), or motors (pumps) with poor power factor can cause brief transient imbalances when energized.

When many aquarium devices share one GFCI, each may leak a small amount (often < 1 mA) of current. This is normal and expected. However putting say, ten devices on a single GFCI might total 3.5 mA of normal leakage. A short inrush event adding just 2 mA raises the total to 5.5 mA, exceeding the trip threshold.

So why did the UV in question trip the GFCI?

Possible reasons:
Older (and even new) UVs are typically driven by core and coil ballasts. The very nature of these ballasts produce leakage current by way of capacitance and inductance, especially on startup as the core and coil saturate with energy.

Several things could have been occurring.

1 - The UV had actual leakage current that exceeded the trip threshold or pushed it right to the edge.
2 - Other devices on the circuit contributed to the total leakage and from time to time pushed past the threshold.
3 - Either of the above with an older generation device that was more prone to nuisance trips.

These conditions are common with inductive loads and do not necessarily indicate a defective UV unit.

I know that the post was long winded, but the bottom line is that current generation GFCIs are much more reliable from both a safety and nuisance tripping standpoints. There really is no reason not use them. Personal safety is paramount and there is far less risk to your aquarium than there would have been even a decade ago.

Great info - thanks!

Edit: any advantage of having the gfci at the breaker rather than outlet? Any less prone to nuisance trips?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Also - I have no evidence that import products don't meet specifications, but I would always lean toward commercial grade domestically manufactured receptacles, especially GFCI. Hubbell, Leviton, Eaton and Legrand ( Pass & Seymour) are brands that are reputable.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

GFCIs have evolved a good bit over the last 30 or so years.

The units from the 1970's were somewhat terrible. They worked, but were very prone to nuisance tripping. Surprisingly, you will still see some of these in service. They had no fail-safe so still work as receptacles even if the protection has failed!

The 80's units were better, but still not overly reliable and also nuisance tripped. I have read that they were sensitive to moisture internally (think bathroom steam). Again, you would be amazed at how many of these are still in service. I don't think that these are fail-safe either and have no internal self-test circuitry. 5 mA was the common trip current, but time to trip varied by manufacturer.

The units from the 2000's were greatly improved with better surge filtering and moisture protection. I think this is when the trip threshold of 5 mA < 25 ms was established. These units were far less prone to nuisance trips.

In 2015 UL 943 was updated to require self monitoring and lockout (you can't reset the device) if the internal diagnostics determine that the GFCI protection circuit has failed. It is my understanding that they will also not "set" if miswired.

The most current generation of GFCIs ~2020 forward have far better filtering and are very stable with regard to nuisance trips.

Nuisance trips:
A GFCI compares the current flowing out on the hot conductor to the current returning on the neutral. Any difference means current is leaking somewhere else. So, possibly through you or water, and it trips.

UL 943 specifies that a GFCI must trip when the imbalance is between 4 mA and 6 mA.

Such leaks are called faults and may result from real insulation faults. They may also not be actual faults, but rather small capacitive or inductive leakage inherent to normal devices.

If a single device is connected, it can leak up to about 4 mA before tripping. Large transformers (think MH ballasts), capacitors (LED power supplies), or motors (pumps) with poor power factor can cause brief transient imbalances when energized.

When many aquarium devices share one GFCI, each may leak a small amount (often < 1 mA) of current. This is normal and expected. However putting say, ten devices on a single GFCI might total 3.5 mA of normal leakage. A short inrush event adding just 2 mA raises the total to 5.5 mA, exceeding the trip threshold.

So why did the UV in question trip the GFCI?

Possible reasons:
Older (and even new) UVs are typically driven by core and coil ballasts. The very nature of these ballasts produce leakage current by way of capacitance and inductance, especially on startup as the core and coil saturate with energy.

Several things could have been occurring.

1 - The UV had actual leakage current that exceeded the trip threshold or pushed it right to the edge.
2 - Other devices on the circuit contributed to the total leakage and from time to time pushed past the threshold.
3 - Either of the above with an older generation device that was more prone to nuisance trips.

These conditions are common with inductive loads and do not necessarily indicate a defective UV unit.

I know that the post was long winded, but the bottom line is that current generation GFCIs are much more reliable from both a safety and nuisance tripping standpoints. There really is no reason not use them. Personal safety is paramount and there is far less risk to your aquarium than there would have been even a decade ago.

Great information. Thank you very much! :)

 

[UncommonSense]

In 2015 UL 943 was updated to require self monitoring and lockout (you can't reset the device) if the internal diagnostics determine that the GFCI protection circuit has failed. It is my understanding that they will also not "set" if miswired.

The most current generation of GFCIs ~2020 forward have far better filtering and are very stable with regard to nuisance trips.

Phenomenal info, thank you!!

— now it’s time to revisit my fish room’s electrical from 2013…

 

[GuppyHJD]

Also - I have no evidence that import products don't meet specifications, but I would always lean toward commercial grade domestically manufactured receptacles, especially GFCI. Hubbell, Leviton, Eaton and Legrand ( Pass & Seymour) are brands that are reputable.

BeanAnimal,
My tank has a dedicated GFCI outlet (Leviton). The two outlets each have a Kasa powerstrip that my equipment plugs into. I have a grounding probe but wonder will it work if plugged into the powerstrip ?

 

[rishma]

Also - I have no evidence that import products don't meet specifications, but I would always lean toward commercial grade domestically manufactured receptacles, especially GFCI. Hubbell, Leviton, Eaton and Legrand ( Pass & Seymour) are brands that are reputable.

BeanAnimal,
My tank has a dedicated GFCI outlet (Leviton). The two outlets each have a Kasa powerstrip that my equipment plugs into. I have a grounding probe but wonder will it work if plugged into the powerstrip ?

I look forward to this answer because I am set up the same way

 

[BeanAnimal]

The ground probe will work as long as the power strips have working grounds connections. That means that the ground pin on the plug is in working order and not broken off.

 

[rishma]

The ground probe will work as long as the power strips have working grounds connections. That means that the ground pin on the plug is in working order and not broken off.

Thank you

 

[GuppyHJD]

The ground probe will work as long as the power strips have working grounds connections. That means that the ground pin on the plug is in working order and not broken off.

Thank you. I will be installing the ground probe tonight.
Is there a good "safe" way to test the GCFI and probe is working?

 

[bureau13]

I remember a few years ago thinking I was going to "set the tank up right" in terms of electrical connections, but then there were people swearing by grounding probes, and others swearing that they were worse, actually, and so the end result is I did nothing. The terrible news about Miamireef has me rethinking that strategy. Is there a good writeup that is current prevailing wisdom about what should and should not be done?

Not meaning to hijack the thread...