Reasons for Doing Water Changes?

[Scott Campbell]

The answer to the first question is clearly no. This forum is proof enough of that.

The second question is a trick question in my view. Of course corals grow in and due to NSW because they have evolved to do so. Like all other living things on this planet.

Embedded in that question are other more relevant ones: Are they utilizing every element in their life cycle? That seems unlikely. Are there elements in NSW that prevent them from growing? Certainly not the concentrations of the NSW in the waters surrounding healthy reefs. On the other hand, we do know that many of the elements present in NSW if increased in concentration are harmful to corals. Many of those harmful elements are also necessary for their growth.

So where does asking this question get us? Back to the first one and its corollary: Which elements present in NSW are not necessary to be present in their NSW concentrations for corals to thrive? And what are the optimal concentrations of each of those necessary elements for growth and color (the two things we strive for).

Lord - there is a lot going on in this thread. I suspect optimal concentrations of necessary elements are different for every coral. And I also suspect some corals are better at competing for these elements than others. Which would argue for perhaps higher than normal overall levels to ensure all the corals in a tank have access to what they need. Of course higher concentrations can become harmful. Personally it seems safer to hold closer to NSW numbers and then just deal with what happens in a particular tank ecosystem. But I can understand the logic of "overfeeding" elements.

I would also like to take mild issue with the cat analogy. Often a species will thrive in a protected or favorable environment up until the point at which it doesn't. Perhaps the population grows too large for the food source or the thriving species slowly degrades the environment in some unknown manner. It is never simple.

 

[Natedogg559]

I just read this whole thread hoping for an answer at the end, but now i'm just more confused and second guessing my own thoughts. I wish there was an easy answer or perfect "method".

 

[DSC reef]

I just read this whole thread hoping for an answer at the end, but now i'm just more confused and second guessing my own thoughts. I wish there was an easy answer or perfect "method".

Lol, don't second guess @Natedogg559. Just keep doing what your doing, especially if it's working for you. I'm a water changer and a carbon doser. Been working for years and i don't plan on stopping, same goes for the salt I use.

 

[dz6t]

Apparently Triton recommends water changes to correct most of the elements if found higher than the referent levels.
Please read it here
https://www.triton-lab.de/fileadmin/triton-lab/TRITON_error_crection_sheet.pdf

 

[dz6t]

Also, water change corrects the levels of multiple elements at the same time.

 

[Newb73]

Lord - there is a lot going on in this thread.

Because driving to Columbia every day to pick up new frags is unrealistic, so this is how nerds unwind.

I'll go back to the same issue, if toxins can get into our tank with water changes just as easily as they can build up without water changes, I'll likely have more luck with water changes as its at least cycling and a set level.

Since you are taking out and equal volume to what your putting in.....there is no reason to believe it would or could build indefinitely.....it would have to reach an equilibrium and after doing so, would likely be corrected on the next batch of salt.

I am nearly sure that unwanted metals or toxins would ruin my system if I went no water change. Undesirables could in that scenario, continue to accumulate unchecked.

I could run an ICP every 60 days but what actionable Intel would it yield? Most likely that I need to do a water change to correct the problem....not very useful in the method of "no water changes".

I like the idea however of still doing normal husbandry but getting the test done once every 6 months to gauge your salt mix, possible contaminants and fine tune any on going dosing (like Randy concluded in his ICP write up).

So if you want to send me a few free kits I'll help you advertise....lol.

 

[LouieP]

@dz6t & @Newb73 For every 10% water change will only yield 10% or less reduction in the toxin that you want to remove assuming you dont have toxins in your new water. If you use quality 2 or 3 part, trace elements or any supplements you should not have any heavy metals or toxins.

I dont do regular water changes because I think it will cause my system to have more swings. I run a CaRx so I would like to think that the Alk, Ca, & Mag that Im adding is for the most part is clean since corals wont utilize toxins or contaminate as they grow I hand dose to make minor adjustments as needed with ME Coral Ca, Mag & Alk and dose Titron Trace element weekly per my Triton test. Im looking into using better quality CaRx media like DaStaCo2 Media or AMS Pro Cal Media to reduce the possibility of adding anything unwanted. If you dose I would use quality products like Triton or ME Coral supplements or NatuReef since I think they are the best since they say they are Pharmaceutical Grade or the purest and you never know what you are getting in Red Sea or SeaChem or other similar companies since I think they put other by products in their bottles and I also dont like that I cant just dose 1 element at a time.

 

[Newb73]

@dz6t & @Newb73 For every 10% water change will only yield 10% or less reduction in the toxin that you want to remove assuming you dont have toxins in your new water. If you use quality 2 or 3 part, trace elements or any supplements you should not have any heavy metals or toxins.

I dont do regular water changes because I think it will cause my system to have more swings. I run a CaRx so I would like to think that the Alk, Ca, & Mag that Im adding is for the most part is clean since corals wont utilize toxins or contaminate as they grow I hand dose to make minor adjustments as needed with ME Coral Ca, Mag & Alk and dose Titron Trace element weekly per my Triton test. Im looking into using better quality CaRx media like DaStaCo2 Media or AMS Pro Cal Media to reduce the possibility of adding anything unwanted. If you dose I would use quality products like Triton or ME Coral supplements or NatuReef since I think they are the best since they say they are Pharmaceutical Grade or the purest and you never know what you are getting in Red Sea or SeaChem or other similar companies since I think they put other by products in their bottles and I also dont like that I cant just dose 1 element at a time.

Some of us do 40% to 50% a month. Some do 100% a month, so we are getting a 40% to 100% reduction per month.

There are also some pretty toxic substances actively being produced in reefs...aka zoas Neurotoxins.

I haven't done the research but it's no secret zoas increase the uptake of magnesium and magnesium sulfate is a drug which Depresses CNS, blocks peripheral neuromuscular transmission, produces anticonvulsant effects; decreases amount of acetylcholine released at end-plate by motor nerve impulse......probably not a coincidence that magnesium uptake is anecdotally increased when palytoxin corals are present. And that's just the tip of the iceberg and many of these things wouldn't be testable in an ICP test where everything is essentially nuked down to its base form.....

 

[CNDReef]

I believe a routine of water changes to be a method not a tool since if something goes bad , what are you going to do if you already do that every week???
Change 40% water in a 1000 gallon tank a week and tell me that’s feasible?
You can do that in a small tank and get away with it cheap. I’m not saying do not ever do water changes but I’m also not a fan of the water change method to balance your nutrients and elements. There has to be some neutral ground on this that would work for both sides. I guess until we have numbers to chase nobody will ever win this debate lol

 

[Newb73]

I believe a routine of water changes to be a method not a tool since if something goes bad , what are you going to do if you already do that every week???
Change 40% water in a 1000 gallon tank a week and tell me that’s feasible?
You can do that in a small tank and get away with it cheap. I’m not saying do not ever do water changes but I’m also not a fan of the water change method to balance your nutrients and elements. There has to be some neutral ground on this that would work for both sides. I guess until we have numbers to chase nobody will ever win this debate lol

Eh, with a 150gpd system from BRS you could make up 100 gallons in a day and the salt cost would be around $30.

If I could afford a 1,000 system I think I could afford a BRS 6 stage RODI and $30 in salt a week....

But yea....at those sizes a Triton test, a 200 gallon sump with huge macro algae and dosing more trace elements probably would get cheaper.

Actually a 1,000 gallon system would be right on the borderline of when going to a method like Triton/reduced water changes might start to make sense.

 

[LouieP]

Eh, with a 150gpd system from BRS you could make up 100 gallons in a day and the salt cost would be around $30.

If I could afford a 1,000 system I think I could afford a BRS 6 stage RODI and $30 in salt a week....

But yea....at those sizes a Triton test, a 200 gallon sump with huge macro algae and dosing more trace elements probably would get cheaper.

Actually a 1,000 gallon system would be right on the borderline of when going to a method like Triton might start to make sense.

Large systems you would or should go with a CaRx. I don't have polys so I don't have to worry about Polytoxins!!!! Im SPS dominate.

 

[Newb73]

Large systems you would or should go with a CaRx. I don't have polys so I don't have to worry about Polytoxins!!!! Im SPS dominate.

What does a Calcium reactor have to do with trace elements?

Do you mean because some claim calcium reactors also release other essential elements besides calcium?

If so, They certainly don't provide all of them.

 

[LouieP]

What does a Calcium reactor have to do with trace elements?

Do you mean because some claim calcium reactors also release other essential elements besides calcium?

If so, They certainly don't provide all of them.

They dont dose enough and i never said that I actually dose weekly Triton trace elements I, Mn, V & Zn.

 

[Sallstrom]

What does a Calcium reactor have to do with trace elements?

Do you mean because some claim calcium reactors also release other essential elements besides calcium?

If so, They certainly don't provide all of them.

No, not all of them. But we can see in our tank where we have a calcium reactor and don't do water changes that when the calcium reactor has not worked well, not only Ca is lowered. Mg, K, Sr, and B are also lower that they are noramlly in that tank.
If the calcium reactor gives the right amount of every element I'm not sure. But close enught for us to only have to do very small additives of the elements above now and then. The last 2 month we haven't needed any for example.

We also dose I, Mn, V and Zn like LouieP.

So in my opinion I works well with a calcium reactor and some smaller amount of additives. Or at least it has worked well for 4 years for one aquarium that I manage at work. But then again, we send tests to Triton Lab to see that it works. Without ICP tests I don't know how I would run my tanks nowadays.

About the question if we need to stay close to NSW, I think it's hard to argue agaist it. Since we don't know for sure what every element does for the organisms in a tank, I think it's logic to try to mimic the water from where they're from. Of course we should stay on the safe side and not overdose.

Some thoughts after the morning coffee

/ David

 

[Newb73]

No, not all of them. But we can see in our tank where we have a calcium reactor and don't do water changes that when the calcium reactor has not worked well, not only Ca is lowered. Mg, K, Sr, and B are also lower that they are noramlly in that tank.
If the calcium reactor gives the right amount of every element I'm not sure. But close enught for us to only have to do very small additives of the elements above now and then. The last 2 month we haven't needed any for example.

We also dose I, Mn, V and Zn like LouieP.

So in my opinion I works well with a calcium reactor and some smaller amount of additives. Or at least it has worked well for 4 years for one aquarium that I manage at work. But then again, we send tests to Triton Lab to see that it works. Without ICP tests I don't know how I would run my tanks nowadays.

About the question if we need to stay close to NSW, I think it's hard to argue agaist it. Since we don't know for sure what every element does for the organisms in a tank, I think it's logic to try to mimic the water from where they're from. Of course we should stay on the safe side and not overdose.

Some thoughts after the morning coffee

/ David

We don't have to guess aa we have tons of evidence on what those elements do in the human body and we can extrapolate.

Trace elements are valuable for everything from protein synthesis to immune function to vision and sensory function to a laundry list of metabolic and endocrine and some times neurological function.

It is almost assuredly and certainly not JUST for "coloration"....although better color may be the observable manifestation in some instances .

And like humans, I suspect marine biological systems actually have a wide range where they can go much of their life significantly diminished or even significantly elevated without much negative effects out side of a chemistry test or pathology slide.

Also like humans, I suspect they would start to show disease in the extreme spectrums of completly deficient/absent or extraordinary high/toxic levels.

Also like humans, I suspect that even small amounts of availability gets you what you need and you hit a law of diminishing returns where adding more certainly isn't toxic, it doesn't benifit in any way what so ever to get extra....minimum is literally all you need.

Also like humans, I suspectthe uptake of every one of them to be slightly increased when growing, although the uptake is no way directly proportional to the growth, in some case just a couple percent higher in requirement.

You could probably dose at 50% or even 25% of NSW and still be providing for all the coral needs.

That likely explains why it's even possible at all for marine coral do grow in captivity. If it were a narrow range with very exacting requirements I doubt anyone would be able to keep a healthy tank.

It would also suggest that slightly depressed levels are much safer than elevated as humans are much more sensitive to toxicity from elevated levels of fat soluble vitamins and minerals then they are subject to disease from slightly low levels for example. (And these are more complex compounds which would not be detectable on an ICP test).

Here again, providing a continuous stream of throughput via water changes is going to just automatically solve a lot of the problems with the build up in a contained system of a whole host of unknowns.

 

[DSC reef]

I believe a routine of water changes to be a method not a tool since if something goes bad , what are you going to do if you already do that every week???
Change 40% water in a 1000 gallon tank a week and tell me that’s feasible?
You can do that in a small tank and get away with it cheap. I’m not saying do not ever do water changes but I’m also not a fan of the water change method to balance your nutrients and elements. There has to be some neutral ground on this that would work for both sides. I guess until we have numbers to chase nobody will ever win this debate lol

What are you referring to "if something else goes bad?" Not everybody keeps 1,000 gallon tanks so water changes are feasible to a lot of reefers. Ive had a 75 gallon for over 7 years running on 15%water changes and manual dosing. I'm not against the no water change method but I also see where other arguments come in as well. It would be impractical for me to constantly send in for triton tests while having to buy there products when I can buy 200 gallons worth of coral pro salt and continue the routine that's worked for many years. Now if I had a system that was 1,000 gallons plus then I might think of a new approach. One of the many things I love about reefing, so many ways to do it!

 

[Newb73]

What are you referring to "if something else goes bad?" Not everybody keeps 1,000 gallon tanks so water changes are feasible to a lot of reefers. Ive had a 75 gallon for over 7 years running on 15%water changes and manual dosing. I'm not against the no water change method but I also see where other arguments come in as well. It would be impractical for me to constantly send in for triton tests while having to buy there products when I can buy 200 gallons worth of coral pro salt and continue the routine that's worked for many years. Now if I had a system that was 1,000 gallons plus then I might think of a new approach. One of the many things I love about reefing, so many ways to do it!

It was just the comment that a 400g water change isn't feasable that made me laugh.

I would set up two 150gpd RODI units, probably grab a couple BRS booster pumps to get peak RODI output, and your talking about $120 in salt to do 400 all at once.....its not beyond the realm of practicality even for me to set that up.

Now if I were doing 50 gallons twice per week it becomes down right easy....i could practically do it from my cell phone without even getting out of my bed at this point....all I need to add is a method for adding the salt to my mixing bin...and probably add a salinity conductivity probe to my mixing container which I am considering doing any way....

 

[Reef Monkie]

What are you referring to "if something else goes bad?" Not everybody keeps 1,000 gallon tanks so water changes are feasible to a lot of reefers. Ive had a 75 gallon for over 7 years running on 15%water changes and manual dosing. I'm not against the no water change method but I also see where other arguments come in as well. It would be impractical for me to constantly send in for triton tests while having to buy there products when I can buy 200 gallons worth of coral pro salt and continue the routine that's worked for many years. Now if I had a system that was 1,000 gallons plus then I might think of a new approach. One of the many things I love about reefing, so many ways to do it!

But isn't that a unfair comparison? One could not do water changes and not test the water and not know what is in the tank just like you did with your tank and just go on routine and what the tank looks like. I think the tests are a something people choose to do to be sure of what is in the tank. I also thought most people don't just do water changes, they also dose along side the water changes.

 

[DSC reef]

But isn't that a unfair comparison? One could not do water changes and not test the water and not know what is in the tank just like you did with your tank and just go on routine and what the tank looks like. I think the tests are a something people choose to do to be sure of what is in the tank. I also thought most people don't just do water changes, they also dose along side the water changes.

I don't think it was unfair at all? Both practices will work fine for different people and tanks. Are you saying now that anyone with a tank needs an icp test to run a tank properly? I do the same testing of basic parameters I've always done and I do water changes weekly, it works for me. I simply said the sizes of different tanks might require a different approach and I also said I'm not against no water changes. Not unfair at all.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For every 10% water change will only yield 10% or less reduction in the toxin that you want to remove assuming you dont have toxins in your new water. If you use quality 2 or 3 part, trace elements or any supplements you should not have any heavy metals or toxins.
.

I recommend 1% daily changes, which is close to equivalent of 50% every two months. That actually has quite a large impact on anything that might be accumulating slowly, from nitrate to zinc to palytoxin.

If you use quality 2 or 3 part, trace elements or any supplements you should not have any heavy metals or toxins.
.

Actually, they all have heavy metals, and the best ones clearly say so. You might word that

"should not have excessive heavy metals" but then you are either trusting them (which can be fine) or aren't sure or have tested them for metals.