Reasons for Doing Water Changes?

[Lasse]

I can see there is an assumption that the natural sea water is the perfect water for coral. But this may not be the case.
Coral are highly adaptable and evolves rapidly under captive conditions. There are plenty of papers about that, just google coral assisted evolution.

Another example is that we keep Alk at 8 to 9 or sometimes higher, and we all know the natural sea water has an average Alk at 7.

Many of us also keep calcium at higher level than natural sea water.

It is kind of funny that we don’t care to mimic the level of major elements but focus on trace elements.

That´s right but with the macro compounds - there is a lot of experiences and knowledge about boundaries because we have for a long time could measure and observe how the corals react in a world scale. With the trace elements (and some more compounds) its only recently a chance to get a lot of measurements - and especially detect too high values (which effects can be observed of aquarist and be discuss here) been possible. Some is still difficult to measure (like iron) but others we will now more about in the near future. Its wise to concentrate on natural values when you do not know – after 5 – 10 years of ICP measurements and observations (and discussion like this) – you know better and can adapt your water. One thing I have indications of for now is that high Si levels seems not to be an issue – at least in my aquaria. About high Si levels – there is a lot of myths.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Another example of “nature is not always the best” is felines.

In a 2010 study domestic cats were ranked the third most popular pet in the UK, after fish and dogs, with around 8 million being owned.

While cats are proliferating while eating cats foods made out of road kills and sleeping on our beds, Siberian tigers are endangered.

And who is feeding the cat´s (in on or another way ) and who eradicates the tiger ? I think that a particular species are responsible for both things

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I can see there is an assumption that the natural sea water is the perfect water for coral. But this may not be the case.

I certainly agree. There's no reason, a priori, to think that natural levels of any of the chemicals in seawater are optimal for any or all organisms we keep.

I think we are lucky that organisms are able to thrive in a wide range of concentrations of many ions , even ones that are critical to them.

 

[dz6t]

And who is feeding the cat´s (in on or another way ) and who eradicates the tiger ? I think that a particular species are responsible for both things

Sincerely Lasse

Totally agree your points.
Tigers are still eating their natural diets, including the species that kills them.
There were studies showed that by eating prepared food, domestic cats are smarter than their wild counterparts. There are still quite a few African wild cats around but not near the population of domestic cats.

 

[Lasse]

I have publish my 5 Triton test here

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

One thing that´s often forgotten in discussion like this is how different molecules interact with each other. Biological interactions between different molecules can both both enlarge or reduce the toxicity of different substances. Therefor – I think that its very important to stress that different scenario you can see in your aquaria can be special just for your actual water and that it could be difficult to generalize the observations.

One classic case is the toxicity of nitrite. Normally – its normally very toxic to aquatic gill breathing animals but when chloride concentration exceeds 80 ppm in the water – it is much lesser toxic to animals that use gills. The chloride ions block the pathway for uptake through the gills. Toxic in freshwater – nontoxic in saltwater.

In general – this is things that for the moment know very little about but the collective experiences of different aquaria combine with an increased amount of reliable data may increase our understanding why a substance appears to be toxic in one environment but not in another.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[glennf]

Why don't anyone ask the questions:

- Do we really need to match all 90+ elements perfectly to make corals thrive in a reef tank?
- Do corals grow due to NSW or despite NSW?

That would be very interesting stuff to talk about...[emoji16]

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Why don't anyone ask the questions:

- Do we really need to match all 90+ elements perfectly to make corals thrive in a reef tank?
- Do corals grow due to NSW or despite NSW?

I'm 100% certain that the answer to the first one is no.

The second one seems more philosophical, or maybe just too vague to give an actual answer.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

One thing that´s often forgotten in discussion like this is how different molecules interact with each other. Biological interactions between different molecules can both both enlarge or reduce the toxicity of different substances. Therefor – I think that its very important to stress that different scenario you can see in your aquaria can be special just for your actual water and that it could be difficult to generalize the observations.

That's a huge issue in trying to relating ICP results to bioavailability (for utility or toxicity).

For many heavy metals, there can be multiple inorganic forms in seawater (e.g., Fe++ and Fe+++) and each of them can be bound to an almost unlimited number of organic molecules that can prevent or facilitate their uptake to a very great extent.

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

Another example of “nature is not always the best” is felines.

In a 2010 study domestic cats were ranked the third most popular pet in the UK, after fish and dogs, with around 8 million being owned.

While cats are proliferating while eating cats foods made out of road kills and sleeping on our beds, Siberian tigers are endangered.

Who's cats are eating "roadkills"? lol. Mine are on the Triton Method for cats. Blood testing every quarter and liquid droppers of vitamins every day. No brushing required. Ever!
If you're wondering about the results from the Triton Method Cat here you go:
Before:

After:

 

[Lasse]

That's a huge issue in trying to relating ICP results to bioavailability (for utility or toxicity).

Yea - that the reason why i write "collective experiences of different aquaria combine with an increased amount of reliable data may increase our understanding"

For many heavy metals, there can be multiple inorganic forms in seawater (e.g., Fe++ and Fe+++) and each of them can be bound to an almost unlimited number of organic molecules that can prevent or facilitate their uptake to a very great extent.b

Exactly - therefore -"I think that its very important to stress that different scenario you can see in your aquaria can be special just for your actual water and that it could be difficult to generalize the observations."

- Do we really need to match all 90+ elements perfectly to make corals thrive in a reef tank?
- Do corals grow due to NSW or despite NSW?

- Definitely no
- Probably despite

 

[glennf]

I'm 100% certain that the answer to the first one is no.

The second one seems more philosophical, or maybe just too vague to give an actual answer.

Than we agree on the first point[emoji106]

The next logical question would be how much do we really need for our average reeftanks or "above" average reeftanks?

It's just my way of looking into the matter.
Some elements in NSW are low measuring yet abundant available.
For example po4/no3/Fe.
In our reeftanks most people seems to target near zero reading (just like NSW).
To keep my corals healthy and resilient i target higher levels.

 

[LouieP]

I dont follow Triton 100% but I do send off a sample about every 3-4 mths. I even sent off a sample of a new batch of saltwater that I just made and the salinity was on the high side 1.028 (I think I dont remember??) I have 60 cube and I dont do regular water changes but I run a CaRx, dose trace elements weekly (V 0.14ml, Mn 2.66ml, I 1.ml, Zn 0.5ml), a SCA 301 Skimmer w O3 , ATS, carbon dosing because ATS wasnt keeping up when I changed DT lights so I had to "reset" the ATS & after a magnet went bad, I have no Macro Algae in my sump some in my tank, & UV. I plan on stop carbon dosing at some point since I would rather have my ATS remove NO3 & PO3.

I personal think water changes is the least effective way to remove Nutrients. If your NO3 is at 20ppm or your PO3 is at 0.10ppm if you do a 10% water change you will only reduce your NO3 to 18ppm & PO3 to 0.09ppm. A lot of work for little results.

If I feel the need to do a water change I use AquaForest Salt and the test results from a new batch of water was interesting (remember the salinity was high when I tested w my refractometer)!!! See Attached file for test results.

 

[spiraling]

To keep my corals healthy and resilient i target higher levels.

I've been admiring your tank for years and know you don't do water changes. What parameters do you try to keep?

and to add to this thread - I still have to do water changes because when I dont things look kinda bad. I guess I don't have the correct husbandry /dosing/ care for none

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I personal think water changes is the least effective way to remove Nutrients. If your NO3 is at 20ppm or your PO3 is at 0.10ppm if you do a 10% water change you will only reduce your NO3 to 18ppm & PO3 to 0.09ppm. A lot of work for little results.
.

I agree that there are much better ways to control nutrients, and I'll add that the phosphate drop is actually a lot smaller than you mention. Even a 10o% change cannot drop phosphate completely because there is a large reservoir of phosphate loosely attached to calcium carbonate surfaces, such as rock, sand, and coral skeletons.

When you try to lower the phosphate concentration in any way (such as a water change), some of this comes off into the new water, "recontaminating" the new water. It also works in reverse, and more gets bound to the rock surfaces as levels in the water rise. That blunts the rise.

 

[dz6t]

Who's cats are eating "roadkills"? lol. Mine are on the Triton Method for cats. Blood testing every quarter and liquid droppers of vitamins every day. No brushing required. Ever!
If you're wondering about the results from the Triton Method Cat here you go:
Before:

After:

Your photo did not show up correctly , really love to see your cats on Triton method.

 

[dz6t]

Most water-changing folks also use other methods for nutrient control such as running media, carbon dosing etc. Water change itself is not a method but a tool people use along side with other maintenance practices.

 

[reef_ranch]

Why don't anyone ask the questions:

- Do we really need to match all 90+ elements perfectly to make corals thrive in a reef tank?
- Do corals grow due to NSW or despite NSW?

The answer to the first question is clearly no. This forum is proof enough of that.

The second question is a trick question in my view. Of course corals grow in and due to NSW because they have evolved to do so. Like all other living things on this planet.

Embedded in that question are other more relevant ones: Are they utilizing every element in their life cycle? That seems unlikely. Are there elements in NSW that prevent them from growing? Certainly not the concentrations of the NSW in the waters surrounding healthy reefs. On the other hand, we do know that many of the elements present in NSW if increased in concentration are harmful to corals. Many of those harmful elements are also necessary for their growth.

So where does asking this question get us? Back to the first one and its corollary: Which elements present in NSW are not necessary to be present in their NSW concentrations for corals to thrive? And what are the optimal concentrations of each of those necessary elements for growth and color (the two things we strive for).

 

[dz6t]

The question can be that if the salt mix on the market good enough for growing coral.
Looks like the answer is yes.

 

[dz6t]

Do we have better understanding and access to better equipment and testing methods than salt manufactures? Looks like the answer is no.