Red Planaria Life Cycle/Treatment

[Sleepydoc]

I've been dealing with a Red Planaria outbreak for several months. My initial goal was to use biological methods, however after killing 2 yellow Coris wrasses I decided to suck it up and use Flatworm Exit.

I just completed my first treatment that appears to have been successful. My question is, how long does it take eggs to hatch and once they hatch, how long does it take for them to mature and lay more eggs? My presumption is I'll need to repeat the treatment in a few days to weeks but I can't seem to find any good information.

Also, is the toxicity caused from actual toxins released from the flatworms, or is it a nitrite spike from the decaying biomass?

Here's my process so far:

I prepped by spending a couple weeks thinning them out the best I could. It's difficult because they congregate on the surface of the sand bed and I don't want to simply suck up all my sand so I would just suck everything I could find off the rocks and corals every day or two and gradually saw the numbers decreased.

To siphon them, I got a mesh filter sock from BRS and mounted it in my sump, then took a plain siphon (~½" hose) and siphoned the from the tank down to the filter sock. After I was finished, I turned the sock inside out and rinsed it out in the sink. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Once I had thinned the population so that there weren't enough crawling up from the sand bed to bother with I treated with Flatworm Exit - 4 drops/5 gallons or 100 drops for my 120 gallon tank + sump. I had carbon set up and ready and after 5 minutes the little buggers were clearly not too happy - falling off of the glass and shriveling up on the sand bed. At this point I started the pump for the carbon. (The instructions say to use 1 pound per 50 gallons but my reactor only holds about ½ pound so that's what I started with.)

After a couple hours I could see they were dead and basically floating right above the sand so I figured I'd try siphoning again. Holding the tube about 1 cm above the sand bed allowed me to suck up most of them without disturbing the sand bed.

After the carbon was running 3-4 hours, I did a 20 gallon water change. So far, everyone seems happy. Now I just need to determine when to re-treat.

 

[KrisReef]

Nice write up of your flatworm eradicating methodology. Now that they are knocked back I don’t think they will return to plague numbers again. I don’t know the specific answer to your lifecycle question on flatworm biology but experience was that they didn’t get out of control again afterwards and eventually there were almost none after the first chemical treatment like you described.

 

[Sleepydoc]

Ok - 2 days later I can see more of the jerks! :mad:

I’ve done a bit more research. It seems their scientific name is Convolutriloba retrogemma. They apparently can reproduce either sexually, by laying eggs, or asexually via budding, binary fission and fragmentation. (I also learned that they are photosynthetic, getting their energy from endosymbiotic algae which explains why they tend to congregate on surfaces exposed to light.) I still haven’t seen anything about how quickly the eggs hatch, but I’m fairly certain that the worms I’m seeing today didn’t come from eggs.

The instructions on Flatworm Exit said to start carbon as soon as you saw them dying, which I did. My theory is that there were some that either were not exposed long enough to die or they were deeper in the sand bed or the corals and the water didn’t have enough time to circulate into the deeper spaces.

My plan is to wait a few more days, then do another dose of Flatworm Exit, leaving it in longer before starting the carbon. At this point, the infestation is much attenuated so there should be less of an issue with toxins.

Reefkeeping Magazine - Flatworms and Other "Bugs" That Make You See Red

Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for the marine aquarist.

www.reefkeeping.com

Convolutriloba retrogemma - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Sleepydoc]

Ok - update here. There were more of the buggers today. Significantly less than there were 4 days ago but more than I wanted so I elected to treat again. I added another 100 drops of Flatworm Exit to my tank. The flatworms were clearly unhappy with things 5-10 minutes in but this time I left it for 2 hours before starting the carbon. I kept a close eye on it and didn't see any signs of stress in either the fish or the corals. My hope is that by waiting to start the carbon I gave the medicine (well, toxin, actually) more time to diffuse down into the sand bed, rocks and other areas.

I started the carbon and vacuumed up what I could, similar to what I did before. We'll see how things look over the next couple of days.

Below are some pictures - unfortunately I didn't think to take pics before I started the first treatment.

 

[Sleepydoc]

Ok - next update. A few days after the last treatment they came back again. :mad: $##@!

I was out of Flatworm Exit and my LFS didn’t have any so I had to order some from BRS. I figured the delay would give me some time to observe. In the 10 days since they have increased significantly and were as bad or worse than they were before the second treatment. Today I proceeded to suction out as many as I could and dosed FWE again. This time I used 140 drops.

I soon noticed some effects. Maybe it’s my imagination but it seemed to take a bit longer for them to respond this time. One thing I noticed was that they first became very active. Normally they sit on the glass/rocks/sand and you can’t see them move at all but now I could see them actively moving on the glass. Maybe trying to get away? I also noticed similar behavior from the worms on the sandbed. As they drug/toxin works, they tend to curl up a bit and let go, hovering right over the sand but now it almost seemed like some were crawling or swimming along the surface. Eventually, they quit moving - that was a few hours ago.

I’ve left the FWE in for several hours, hoping it will reach and kill all of flatworms. So far the fish and corals seem happy. The only thing I noticed was some of the small serpent starfish didn’t seem so happy. They don’t seem to be dying so I’m keeping a close eye on them. The other thing I’m worried about is potentially breeding resistance by under/suboptimally dosing. Hopefully the 3rd time’s a charm…

 

[Sleepydoc]

Next update…
I left the higher dose FWE in for 24 hours. Then turned on the carbon filtration. The brittle stars were not ‘happy’ - at least they had crawled out from the rocks and were on the sand bed. Shortly after starting the carbon they crawled back to their homes and seem to be doing fine.

After running the carbon for 24º I did a 10% water change and all looked good. Then I saw a single flatworm on the glass yesterday. Grrrrr! There’s definitely far fewer flatworms - I had to look hard to find any, but they’re not gone either.

I dosed FWE again today at 140 drops (for my 120 gallon DT + 40 gal sump, estimated total water volume is about 130 gallons.) I plan on leaving it in another 24-48 hours and keep my fingers crossed. :|

 

[PeterLL]

Any update?

Sounds exactly like my experience. Worked up to 8x dose and left the dose in for 48 hours before any carbon. Still... they survive.

 

[Backreefing]

Following

 

[davidcalgary29]

Has anyone tried to control them with velvet nudibranchs?

 

[Sleepydoc]

Ok - here’s the latest update. I dosed at 140 drops on 12/19. As I mentioned above, my tank is a 120 gallon with a 30b sump that’s about ⅔ full. So accounting for the sand, rock and overflow I’m guessing it’s about 120-130 gallons.

I left the skimmer on and left the drops in for 72 hours before starting carbon. The brittle stars got a bit irritated again after a day or so and started hanging out on the sand rather than in the rocks but otherwise everyone seemed happy.

After 72 hours I started the carbon, then I did a 15 gallon water change A few days after that. So far I haven’t seen any more of the buggers, so fingers crossed.

Like I said above, my theory is that the shorter treatment durations don’t penetrate into the rocks and sand bed and/or there are eggs that hatch after the medicine is removed. What I don’t know is whether the medicine is removed by the protein skimmer or otherwise degrades and becomes less potent over time. The instructions don’t say to stop the protein skimmer, but they also recommend starting carbon within a few minutes of starting it.

I’d prefer biologic control but when I got a coris wrasse my hippo tang promptly beat him up and killed him. I haven’t tried a velvet nudibranch (I haven’t seen any available and was deterred by the “expert only” warning on LiveAquaria.)

 

[davidcalgary29]

I haven’t tried a velvet nudibranch (I haven’t seen any available and was deterred by the “expert only” warning on LiveAquaria.)

I think that's because they have a specific diet of flatworms and planaria. They'll ultimately starve without a steady supply of food.

 

[WallyB]

Ok - here’s the latest update. I dosed at 140 drops on 12/19. As I mentioned above, my tank is a 120 gallon with a 30b sump that’s about ⅔ full. So accounting for the sand, rock and overflow I’m guessing it’s about 120-130 gallons.

I left the skimmer on and left the drops in for 72 hours before starting carbon. The brittle stars got a bit irritated again after a day or so and started hanging out on the sand rather than in the rocks but otherwise everyone seemed happy.

After 72 hours I started the carbon, then I did a 15 gallon water change A few days after that. So far I haven’t seen any more of the buggers, so fingers crossed.

Like I said above, my theory is that the shorter treatment durations don’t penetrate into the rocks and sand bed and/or there are eggs that hatch after the medicine is removed. What I don’t know is whether the medicine is removed by the protein skimmer or otherwise degrades and becomes less potent over time. The instructions don’t say to stop the protein skimmer, but they also recommend starting carbon within a few minutes of starting it.

I’d prefer biologic control but when I got a coris wrasse my hippo tang promptly beat him up and killed him. I haven’t tried a velvet nudibranch (I haven’t seen any available and was deterred by the “expert only” warning on LiveAquaria.)

Thanks. Great write up. I will do something similar. Same size tank. I'm glass bottom so might be a little easier.

 

[blackstallion]

Like I said above, my theory is that the shorter treatment durations don’t penetrate into the rocks and sand bed and/or there are eggs that hatch after the medicine is removed. What I don’t know is whether the medicine is removed by the protein skimmer or otherwise degrades and becomes less potent over time.

What about upping the dose to increase the potency instead of prolonging the duration? Just a thought?

 

[WallyB]

What about upping the dose to increase the potency instead of prolonging the duration? Just a thought?

That doesn't help. The chemical Flatworm Exit isn't the toxin. It's the planaria dying and releasing their toxin.

Basically if you kill a large population of planaria, fast or slow, and you kill them all you still get the same amount of toxin in your system. That's why you need to follows instructions properly to remove the Planaria Toxins from you tank with Carbon, and Water Changes.

I opted to cut down my planaria population over time by getting a Melanarus Wrasse. It will be free food available to the wrasse whenever he has an appetite. I may still treat the tank down if the Wrasse can't keep planaria under control. Will treat the sump (offline) first. Then maybe treat DT as last resort, if ever.

 

[blackstallion]

That doesn't help. The chemical Flatworm Exit isn't the toxin. It's the planaria dying and releasing their toxin.

Basically if you kill a large population of planaria, fast or slow, and you kill them all you still get the same amount of toxin in your system. That's why you need to follows instructions properly to remove the Planaria Toxins from you tank with Carbon, and Water Changes.

I opted to cut down my planaria population over time by getting a Melanarus Wrasse. It will be free food available to the wrasse whenever he has an appetite. I may still treat the tank down if the Wrasse can't keep planaria under control. Will treat the sump (offline) first. Then maybe treat DT as last resort, if ever.

You misunderstood my point...you are stating you increased the duration of which you left the FWE in the tank in hopes of killing more or all of the Flatworms.

What I am saying is that another way of accomplishing this without leaving FWE in the tank for days or weeks would be to increase the initial dosage of FWE, which will kill them quicker and then you can perform your WC and move on with your life.

I understand the toxins come from the Flatworms when they die...

 

[WallyB]

You misunderstood my point...you are stating you increased the duration of which you left the FWE in the tank in hopes of killing more or all of the Flatworms.

What I am saying is that another way of accomplishing this without leaving FWE in the tank for days or weeks would be to increase the initial dosage of FWE, which will kill them quicker and then you can perform your WC and move on with your life.

I understand the toxins come from the Flatworms when they die...

I understand your point now. Yes, a higher level of FWE is part of the instruction method. You dose the required intial amount and if Flatworms don't start dying after 30 minutes you add 50% more FWE.

The FWE solution is only left in tank for 30-45 minutes (not days) then you have to start the Carbon imediately, and depending on Toxin levels also do the water change right away. 2nd or more water changes as required.

My plan is moving foward. I have a Melanarus Wrasse in QT, that will be added to the tank, and fingers cross he lowers the planaria population, slowly but effectively over time. Once the planaria in DT are reduced, I will tackle the sump which the Wrasse can't get to. (Sump disconnected from DT), and treat it as you mention (HIGH DOSE) with FWE. After carbon/water-changes, I'll restart the sump. Then I should have a lower planaria population in my whole system. Treating the whole system at that point should be much less risky.

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

You cannot completely eradicate them with Flatworm exit. I dosed many times and even at 5 times the recommended dose. I thought I had finally wiped them out. Never saw one for a few weeks. I then stopped paying attention to the tank for a while and the next time I looked they were back and in plague proportions. Completely covering every surface of the rock work. The simple answer is Flatworm exit doesn't work, it's only a partial solution like everything in this dam hobby.

 

[Sleepydoc]

You cannot completely eradicate them with Flatworm exit. I dosed many times and even at 5 times the recommended dose. I thought I had finally wiped them out. Never saw one for a few weeks. I then stopped paying attention to the tank for a while and the next time I looked they were back and in plague proportions. Completely covering every surface of the rock work. The simple answer is Flatworm exit doesn't work, it's only a partial solution like everything in this dam hobby.

I can’t definitively disprove this, but have been flatworm free for several months now after dosing as above and leaving the Flatworm Exit in the tank for several days rather than starting carbon immediately. I think it’s important to note that I did not start with this right away. I first took steps to reduce the flatworm load in the tank and I monitored the inhabitants closely for signs of toxicity from either the Flatworm Exit or from toxins released by the flatworms.

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

I can’t definitively disprove this, but have been flatworm free for several months now after dosing as above and leaving the Flatworm Exit in the tank for several days rather than starting carbon immediately. I think it’s important to note that I did not start with this right away. I first took steps to reduce the flatworm load in the tank and I monitored the inhabitants closely for signs of toxicity from either the Flatworm Exit or from toxins released by the flatworms.

I have not tried leaving it in for several days. But i would be worried that it would kill other types of worms such as bristle worms etc if you did that?

 

[WallyB]

I have not tried leaving it in for several days. But i would be worried that it would kill other types of worms such as bristle worms etc if you did that?

I tested Flatworm exit outside of my tank in a small 10 G tank with couple live rocks and spare corals (Trumpet, Mushroom, Paly). I transfered a few planaria and Let the buggers breed for a bit and then treated with FlatWorm Exit. Left treatment in for a few days. Then did the carbon. No harm to corals. Couple weeks later I see planaria showing up. I treated again, this time not removing carbon. We'll see how it works. This is day 3 and no impact to corals even thought I left treatment in tank. Of course this is quite different from treating a Display tank with critters, corals, fish and thousands of Planaria Flatworms.