Reef Moonshiners V All for Reef

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Since this thread popped up I’ll share some recent data. Interested in thoughts. The table below is an Oceamo ICP-MS, the Oceamo ideal value ranges, the NSW concentrations and comments from @Randy Holmes-Farley on thread on which trace to dose.

The most interesting ones for me are Fluoride, chromium, and selenium which are around half the concentration found in NSW.

I have no known issues to solve in my tank so I’m not likely to put effort into dosing these separately but it does make me wonder more about their effects. Chromium and selenium are indicated as important biologically but I don’t think I’d know the symptom of having insufficient concentration.

This tank is long term AFR dosing.

I too do not know the symptoms of lack of selenium or chromium. Both of those will be present in foods, and organisms may possibly get them from particulate matter they ingest (if any). Both chromium and selenium are needed for various enzymes.

Fluoride is nearly exclusively involved in incorporation in calcium carbonate and related minerals in place of carbonate. It has little other role, though a few exotic things have been found. F- is a very stable ion in seawater and organisms have a hard time chemically converting it into anything else. I expect any symptom of fluoride would be an impact on coral skeletons. I do not believe there is any actual data on the effects it has on coral skeletons, I would not even be sure it is a positive effect. That said, maintaining it (and the other two) at natural levels in natural forms (for seawater) is not likely to cause any harm.

 

[rishma]

Since this thread popped up I’ll share some recent data. Interested in thoughts. The table below is an Oceamo ICP-MS, the Oceamo ideal value ranges, the NSW concentrations and comments from @Randy Holmes-Farley on thread on which trace to dose.

The most interesting ones for me are Fluoride, chromium, and selenium which are around half the concentration found in NSW.

I have no known issues to solve in my tank so I’m not likely to put effort into dosing these separately but it does make me wonder more about their effects. Chromium and selenium are indicated as important biologically but I don’t think I’d know the symptom of having insufficient concentration.

This tank is long term AFR dosing.

I too do not know the symptoms of lack of selenium or chromium. Both of those will be present in foods, and organisms may possibly get them from particulate matter they ingest (if any). Both chromium and selenium are needed for various enzymes.

Fluoride is nearly exclusively involved in incorporation in calcium carbonate and related minerals in place of carbonate. It has little other role, though a few exotic things have been found. F- is a very stable ion in seawater and organisms have a hard time chemically converting it into anything else. I expect any symptom of fluoride would be an impact on coral skeletons. I do not believe there is any actual data on the effects it has on coral skeletons, I would not even be sure it is a positive effect. That said, maintaining it (and the other two) at natural levels in natural forms (for seawater) is not likely to cause any harm.

Got it. As much as I like to complexify things, I think I’ll forego the dosing of more solutions in search of a problem.

 

[Ghostbuster]

Since this thread popped up I’ll share some recent data. Interested in thoughts. The table below is an Oceamo ICP-MS, the Oceamo ideal value ranges, the NSW concentrations and comments from @Randy Holmes-Farley on thread on which trace to dose.

The most interesting ones for me are Fluoride, chromium, and selenium which are around half the concentration found in NSW.

I have no known issues to solve in my tank so I’m not likely to put effort into dosing these separately but it does make me wonder more about their effects. Chromium and selenium are indicated as important biologically but I don’t think I’d know the symptom of having insufficient concentration.

This tank is long term AFR dosing.

Some of these element levels in your tank seem super extreme, like Cobalt, Copper, Zink and Tin… Does All For Reef include all these elements in their mixture? Any concerns about these ICP percentages? Thanks, just asking because my thoughts are if we dose an all in one product like this or ESV 2-part, we might be increasing elements we don’t want or need just willy-nelly. At the same time, we aren’t getting enough of the other elements that are necessary and consumed

 

[rishma]

Since this thread popped up I’ll share some recent data. Interested in thoughts. The table below is an Oceamo ICP-MS, the Oceamo ideal value ranges, the NSW concentrations and comments from @Randy Holmes-Farley on thread on which trace to dose.

The most interesting ones for me are Fluoride, chromium, and selenium which are around half the concentration found in NSW.

I have no known issues to solve in my tank so I’m not likely to put effort into dosing these separately but it does make me wonder more about their effects. Chromium and selenium are indicated as important biologically but I don’t think I’d know the symptom of having insufficient concentration.

This tank is long term AFR dosing.

.

I am not concerned about those levels. Most of them actually fall within the recommended ranges from ICP companies, though I am unsure of the basis for most of those ranges. I don’t consider any of them near a problem level even though they are higher than natural seawater (so is my alkalinity, nitrate and phosphate ). They are also not necessary from my dosing or my salt.

For example, I think I know my tin source. I have had high tin for a long time. I narrowed it down to likely from the long RO tubing (30’) connected to RODI. After my last ICP I started purging the line before using water for my ATO or mixing new salt water. This ICP showed it trended down a lot for the first time. I was never very concerned but glad I figured it out.

A lot of trace elements come from food and other sources too

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Some of these element levels in your tank seem super extreme, like Cobalt, Copper, Zink and Tin… Does All For Reef include all these elements in their mixture? Any concerns about these ICP percentages? Thanks, just asking because my thoughts are if we dose an all in one product like this or ESV 2-part, we might be increasing elements we don’t want or need just willy-nelly. At the same time, we aren’t getting enough of the other elements that are necessary and consumed

AFR does not intentionally add any tin.

Why do you think those levels are extreme?

 

[Ghostbuster]

AFR does not intentionally add any tin.

Why do you think those levels are extreme?

The percentages of certain elements as compared with natural sea water… assuming natural sea water is at natural coral reef elevations, lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I think there’s not much evidence that exact levels of many trace elements is important, or that natural levels should be taken as an important to match goal. The range between enough and too much seems very wide for some of them.

 

[Hans-Werner]

The percentages of certain elements as compared with natural sea water… assuming natural sea water is at natural coral reef elevations, lol

The trace element concentrations in All-For-Reef are based on ratios to calcium found in coral and coralline algal skeletons.

Coral skeletons are the compartments with lowest trace metal concentrations compared to tissue or zooxanthelae as investigated here, so trace metal concentration should not be too high.

Trace metal concentrations in reefs may vary depending on geological formation, volcanic ashes raining down on reef waters or runoffs from land, so corals are quite tolerant to varying concentrations by nature.

I think some trace metals like especially copper accumulate in tank water because organic complexation by bacteria and cyanobacteria reduce bioavailability. This means, these copper complexes are not taken up, incorporated or precipitated, they remain in the water and ICP finds high concentrations.

So judging trace metal concentrations in tanks is not as straightforward as it may seem and there may be some "complexities".

Finally, as always, the proof is in the pudding. Look at coral growth, colors and polyp extension.

 

[Ghostbuster]

The trace element concentrations in All-For-Reef are based on ratios to calcium found in coral and coralline algal skeletons.

Coral skeletons are the compartments with lowest trace metal concentrations compared to tissue or zooxanthelae as investigated here, so trace metal concentration should not be too high.

Trace metal concentrations in reefs may vary depending on geological formation, volcanic ashes raining down on reef waters or runoffs from land, so corals are quite tolerant to varying concentrations by nature.

I think some trace metals like especially copper accumulate in tank water because organic complexation by bacteria and cyanobacteria reduce bioavailability. This means, these copper complexes are not taken up, incorporated or precipitated, they remain in the water and ICP finds high concentrations.

So judging trace metal concentrations in tanks is not as straightforward as it may seem and there may be some "complexities".

Finally, as always, the proof is in the pudding. Look at coral growth, colors and polyp extension.

That’s a very good explanation, thank you for taking the time to write this!

 

[Ghostbuster]

I’ve just started dosing Captive8 this week, so been digging and mentally digesting all the specifics of trace elements. Will send in my first ICP test in a couple more weeks to see what the new changes will be to my previous results

 

[Ghostbuster]

Since this thread popped up I’ll share some recent data. Interested in thoughts. The table below is an Oceamo ICP-MS, the Oceamo ideal value ranges, the NSW concentrations and comments from @Randy Holmes-Farley on thread on which trace to dose.

The most interesting ones for me are Fluoride, chromium, and selenium which are around half the concentration found in NSW.

I have no known issues to solve in my tank so I’m not likely to put effort into dosing these separately but it does make me wonder more about their effects. Chromium and selenium are indicated as important biologically but I don’t think I’d know the symptom of having insufficient concentration.

This tank is long term AFR dosing.

I’m revisiting this thread as I have a little more info on Cu… Do you happen to use any other product that is increasing your Copper in your system? I believe your Cu value here is too high; I would definitely address this

 

[rishma]

Since this thread popped up I’ll share some recent data. Interested in thoughts. The table below is an Oceamo ICP-MS, the Oceamo ideal value ranges, the NSW concentrations and comments from @Randy Holmes-Farley on thread on which trace to dose.

The most interesting ones for me are Fluoride, chromium, and selenium which are around half the concentration found in NSW.

I have no known issues to solve in my tank so I’m not likely to put effort into dosing these separately but it does make me wonder more about their effects. Chromium and selenium are indicated as important biologically but I don’t think I’d know the symptom of having insufficient concentration.

This tank is long term AFR dosing.

I’m revisiting this thread as I have a little more info on Cu… Do you happen to use any other product that is increasing your Copper in your system? I believe your Cu value here is too high; I would definitely address this

I am not adding Cu deliberately any other way. I agree it’s a little elevated but I am not worried about it.

 

[jackson6745]

I am not adding Cu deliberately any other way. I agree it’s a little elevated but I am not worried about it.

If that copper level is correct, it’s high enough to destroy more sensitive acros, especially tenuis.

 

[rishma]

I am not adding Cu deliberately any other way. I agree it’s a little elevated but I am not worried about it.

If that copper level is correct, it’s high enough to destroy more sensitive acros, especially tenuis.

3.4 micrograms per liter will destroy acros? How do you know? Published data?

I would think for mature corals that I’m nearly an order of magnitude below the danger zone.

 

[jackson6745]

3.4 micrograms per liter will destroy acros? How do you know? Published data?

I would think for mature corals that I’m nearly an order of magnitude below the danger zone.

My own systems and multiple MS tests.

 

[rishma]

3.4 micrograms per liter will destroy acros? How do you know? Published data?

I would think for mature corals that I’m nearly an order of magnitude below the danger zone.

My own systems and multiple MS tests.

Got it. I’ll keep an eye on it.

 

[Hans-Werner]

My own systems and multiple MS tests.

The Fauna Marin knowledge base says. "Copper can be introduced into the aquarium via tap water, trace element solutions and fish food. Some products contain higher amounts of copper to achieve a brightening of the corals. Copper readings as low as 10 µg/l (0,26 US.liq.gal.) can be considered uncritical, as most copper is present in the aquarium as a non-bioavailable compound."
and

Reference value	2–5 µg/l (0,26 US.liq.gal.)

µg/l = ppb

I don't have much ICP-OES data from own tanks since they usually are "< 2.5 µg/l".

Scientific literature says that especially cyanobacteria bind copper with an organic complex which detoxifies it and makes it biounavailable by more than 99 %.

I would say, it depends on how fast copper builds up and whether it has time to be detoxified in the described way. Strong oxidants like ozone, which destroy organic compounds, may make copper more toxic. Generally Cu forms strong bonds with organics.

Manganese may help to lower elevated copper concentrations.

 

[jackson6745]

The Fauna Marin knowledge base says. "Copper can be introduced into the aquarium via tap water, trace element solutions and fish food. Some products contain higher amounts of copper to achieve a brightening of the corals. Copper readings as low as 10 µg/l (0,26 US.liq.gal.) can be considered uncritical, as most copper is present in the aquarium as a non-bioavailable compound."
and

Reference value	2–5 µg/l (0,26 US.liq.gal.)

µg/l = ppb

I don't have much ICP-OES data from own tanks since they usually are "< 2.5 µg/l".

Scientific literature says that especially cyanobacteria bind copper with an organic complex which detoxifies it and makes it biounavailable by more than 99 %.

I would say, it depends on how fast copper builds up and whether it has time to be detoxified in the described way. Strong oxidants like ozone, which destroy organic compounds, may make copper more toxic. Generally Cu forms strong bonds with organics.

Manganese may help to lower elevated copper concentrations.

In my case, the copper came from accumulation from using KZ flatworm stop. I knew about the iodine content but the copper was a surprise. Once my copper hit 2ug/l, all of my tenuis paled out. The tissue looked translucent and eventually became burned and compromised or died. Surprisingly , 85% of the corals in my systems looked ok. Maybe lightened up a little despite higher nutrient levels and even reducing lighting intensity.

Specifically with tenuis, I have yet to see a reef keeping Cu levels of 2-3 ug/l with healthy perfect looking specimens. This was the only anomaly on my icps, and when I lowered levels the living damaged tenuis started recovering. With stags and Hyacinthus etc, they don’t seem to mind one bit. I also noticed most of my goniopora would close intermittently, and returned to normal when copper was returned below 1 ug/l.

 

[Hans-Werner]

In my case, the copper came from accumulation from using KZ flatworm stop. I knew about the iodine content but the copper was a surprise. Once my copper hit 2ug/l, all of my tenuis paled out. The tissue looked translucent and eventually became burned and compromised or died. Surprising, 85% of the corals in my systems looked ok. Maybe lightened up a little despite higher nutrient levels and even reducing lighting intensity.

Specifically with tenuis, I have yet to see a reef keeping Cu levels of 2-3 ug/l with healthy perfect looking specimens. This was the only anomaly on my icps, and when I lowered levels the living damaged tenuis started recovering. With stags and Hyacinthus etc, they don’t seem to mind one bit. I also noticed most of my goniopora would close intermittently, and returned to normal when copper was returned below 1 ug/l.

Thanks for the information. I will keep my eyes open.

What kind of iodine is in the flatworm stop? ICP will not differ between elementary iodine, iodide or iodate. This may also have had an effect or some synergistic effect with copper.

Like mentioned, the sudden rise in copper concentration may also have had an effect. So, don't be surprised too much if personal experiences differ, maybe even with the same coral clone.

 

[jackson6745]

Thanks for the information. I will keep my eyes open.

What kind of iodine is in the flatworm stop? ICP will not differ between elementary iodine, iodide or iodate. This may also have had an effect or some synergistic effect with copper.

Like mentioned, the sudden rise in copper concentration may also have had an effect. So, don't be surprised too much if personal experiences differ, maybe even with the same coral clone.

Thanks Hans. Unfortunately I don’t know the iodine source. KZ keeps their products proprietary. I’ll reach out to KZ, but im not expecting much insight from them. I’ll see what I can find out. I don’t think it’s iodide since I can actually smell the iodine in the KZ bottle.