Reverse Undergravel

[Perksr11]

Hi all,

Want people to think outside the box on this idea. I put a pond in this summer with a bog/wetland filter where water slowly flows upward through layers of different size rock. About 10” of 5-6”, 10” of 4-5”, 10” of 2-3”, and topped off by 10” of pea gravel. It is filled with different big plants that soak up all the nutrients and keeps my pond crystal clear. It is 20% the size of the main pond which is what they recommend. It created massive amount of surface area for bacteria and keeps my levels in check. There is a vertical pipe that goes to the bottom of the bog and is a clean out chamber for any sediment/detritus that settles, I can just drop a pump down it and clean it out.

Here we go….thinking of trying it on my next tank. Same concept where water comes down from the tank into my man made sump. Water flows slowly upward through 6” of 3-4” rock chunks, 6” of 2-3”, 6” of 1-2”, 6”larger crushed coral, and finally 4” of fine sand. Top of fugium will be loaded with mangroves and macro to soak up all those nutrients. I’ll still have a vertical pipe that come up so I can drop a tube down it and suck out any detritus that might settle. Size should be about 20% of the tank volume. I’ll still have a chamber for my protein skimmer, reactor etc.

Looking for feedback, both pros and cons. I know every tank is different and people have had success in many ways. I’ve had successful tanks for 20 years using just a refugium and some activated carbon. This is a hobby that’s always trying new things, so here is mine.

 

[TX_REEF]

I know that refugiums aren’t the most “efficient” form of nutrient export, but I think the extra enjoyment of building, maintaining and visually appreciating them is worth any technical downsides. Go for it!

 

[Waters]

@Paul B runs a reverse undergravel filter currently.....lets bring in an expert lol.

 

[Subsea]

@Paul B
Paul is my mentor as well, he started Reefing 6 months before me, yet I am 6 months older than Him, but don’t ask him that , because he is older than dirt.

Perks,
Kudos to your eco pond. That is very intentional and well planed. Then you followed thru like a golf pro.

So, KUDUS to you,

My eco pond was not intentional but more like chaos. Originally, a 2,250G water storage tank countersunk flush in the ground. Before I had a chance to fill tank, Halloween floods on Bear Creek floated tank out of the ground. Ten years later, I have Cana lilly as a nutrient sink and 150G Rubbermaid tubs growing hardy lilly and Blue Israeli Tilapia as janitor harvesters of nuisance algae.

 

[Reign1]

Well our local aquarium (public) had reverse flow on the 250k+ main display . Of course this system had high speed sand filter, carbon and ozone tower . Eventually they had to replace structural support for sand/aragonite as it started to collapse . I also had a friend who had a 300 setup w/ reverse flow .. The main issues I have seen/see are 1. Detritus will accumulate and much like the DSBs we used to run in early reefing this can be issue long term.. 2 . Channeling will occur which can add to this issue . 3. If you are using as aerobic bacterial zone there is less O2 in this are so a top down or open or even wet/dry approach will have denser bacteria culture zone due to more oxygen avail .. Sounds like a fun project .. Will likely work fine but long term may need substrate slowly changed . Also if too little flow will likely turn into anoxic zone which can be good for NNR but not for nitrifying bacteria ..

 

[Perksr11]

Well our local aquarium (public) had reverse flow on the 250k+ main display . Of course this system had high speed sand filter, carbon and ozone tower . Eventually they had to replace structural support for sand/aragonite as it started to collapse . I also had a friend who had a 300 setup w/ reverse flow .. The main issues I have seen/see are 1. Detritus will accumulate and much like the DSBs we used to run in early reefing this can be issue long term.. 2 . Channeling will occur which can add to this issue . 3. If you are using as aerobic bacterial zone there is less O2 in this are so a top down or open or even wet/dry approach will have denser bacteria culture zone due to more oxygen avail .. Sounds like a fun project .. Will likely work fine but long term may need substrate slowly changed . Also if too little flow will likely turn into anoxic zone which can be good for NNR but not for nitrifying bacteria ..

Appreciate the feedback! For #1, I’ll have a clean out pipe or two that I can drop a tube down and syphon out any accumulation under the bottom plates where the water flows up through. #2….what do you mean by channeling? #3/4- so this would be in the sump and constantly have water flowing through it, so there would be no dead zones and I would think would allow oxygen through it. I’ve also read the concern about releasing gases into the tank when stirring up Deep sand beds, but not sure that would apply here due to the constant flow through it.

Again, appreciate the feedback, I want people to come at all angles before I put it into action or not.

 

[Uncle99]

Hi all,

Want people to think outside the box on this idea. I put a pond in this summer with a bog/wetland filter where water slowly flows upward through layers of different size rock. About 10” of 5-6”, 10” of 4-5”, 10” of 2-3”, and topped off by 10” of pea gravel. It is filled with different big plants that soak up all the nutrients and keeps my pond crystal clear. It is 20% the size of the main pond which is what they recommend. It created massive amount of surface area for bacteria and keeps my levels in check. There is a vertical pipe that goes to the bottom of the bog and is a clean out chamber for any sediment/detritus that settles, I can just drop a pump down it and clean it out.

Here we go….thinking of trying it on my next tank. Same concept where water comes down from the tank into my man made sump. Water flows slowly upward through 6” of 3-4” rock chunks, 6” of 2-3”, 6” of 1-2”, 6”larger crushed coral, and finally 4” of fine sand. Top of fugium will be loaded with mangroves and macro to soak up all those nutrients. I’ll still have a vertical pipe that come up so I can drop a tube down it and suck out any detritus that might settle. Size should be about 20% of the tank volume. I’ll still have a chamber for my protein skimmer, reactor etc.

Looking for feedback, both pros and cons. I know every tank is different and people have had success in many ways. I’ve had successful tanks for 20 years using just a refugium and some activated carbon. This is a hobby that’s always trying new things, so here is mine.

This tank uses your reverse under substrate filter system
I think @Paul B has used that system forever.
Water goes down the tubes, 1” free water plenum underneath, up through 2” of sand, a screen, back into the water column.
Works well.

 

[Reign1]

Appreciate the feedback! For #1, I’ll have a clean out pipe or two that I can drop a tube down and syphon out any accumulation under the bottom plates where the water flows up through. #2….what do you mean by channeling? #3/4- so this would be in the sump and constantly have water flowing through it, so there would be no dead zones and I would think would allow oxygen through it. I’ve also read the concern about releasing gases into the tank when stirring up Deep sand beds, but not sure that would apply here due to the constant flow through it.

Again, appreciate the feedback, I want people to come at all angles before I put it into action or not.

So long term the sand will likely get gunked up and the water will take path of least resistance .. This could be where anoxic zones could build .. Early reefing used plenums and later DSB and yes if these pockets are degassed hydrogen sulfide could get released and cause a crash.. this would only occur if an anoxic zone is disturbed .. I think regular maintenance helps but long term you likely should change substrate gradually ..

 

[RedoubtReef]

Hi all,

Want people to think outside the box on this idea. I put a pond in this summer with a bog/wetland filter where water slowly flows upward through layers of different size rock. About 10” of 5-6”, 10” of 4-5”, 10” of 2-3”, and topped off by 10” of pea gravel. It is filled with different big plants that soak up all the nutrients and keeps my pond crystal clear. It is 20% the size of the main pond which is what they recommend. It created massive amount of surface area for bacteria and keeps my levels in check. There is a vertical pipe that goes to the bottom of the bog and is a clean out chamber for any sediment/detritus that settles, I can just drop a pump down it and clean it out.

Here we go….thinking of trying it on my next tank. Same concept where water comes down from the tank into my man made sump. Water flows slowly upward through 6” of 3-4” rock chunks, 6” of 2-3”, 6” of 1-2”, 6”larger crushed coral, and finally 4” of fine sand. Top of fugium will be loaded with mangroves and macro to soak up all those nutrients. I’ll still have a vertical pipe that come up so I can drop a tube down it and suck out any detritus that might settle. Size should be about 20% of the tank volume. I’ll still have a chamber for my protein skimmer, reactor etc.

Looking for feedback, both pros and cons. I know every tank is different and people have had success in many ways. I’ve had successful tanks for 20 years using just a refugium and some activated carbon. This is a hobby that’s always trying new things, so here is mine.

Where's the pics?!
This sounds way to cool to not post pics of this pond setup.

 

[Perksr11]

So long term the sand will likely get gunked up and the water will take path of least resistance .. This could be where anoxic zones could build .. Early reefing used plenums and later DSB and yes if these pockets are degassed hydrogen sulfide could get released and cause a crash.. this would only occur if an anoxic zone is disturbed .. I think regular maintenance helps but long term you likely should change substrate gradually ..

Makes sense, thanks for the feedback!

Where's the pics?!
This sounds way to cool to not post pics of this pond setup.

 

[Reign1]

Nice pond .. mine is down for the winter as all the plants wither .. I need to clean the leaves ..

 

[Perksr11]

Nice pond .. mine is down for the winter as all the plants wither .. I need to clean the leaves ..

Thanks, I finished it at the end of summer so I really haven’t added any plants/landscaping….excited for spring/summer for sure.

 

[Subsea]

So long term the sand will likely get gunked up and the water will take path of least resistance .. This could be where anoxic zones could build .. Early reefing used plenums and later DSB and yes if these pockets are degassed hydrogen sulfide could get released and cause a crash.. this would only occur if an anoxic zone is disturbed .. I think regular maintenance helps but long term you likely should change substrate gradually

I have been running Jaubert plenum, dsb and reverse ug for 53 years. While some of those could happen, it’s most likely operator error as he cause.

 

[Reign1]

I have been running Jaubert plenum, dsb and reverse ug for 53 years. While some of those could happen, it’s most likely operator error as he cause.

Yup I was a DSB person for like 20 years .. detritus is my bigger concern

 

[Subsea]

Yup I was a DSB person for like 20 years .. detritus is my bigger concern

Detrivors work just fine to eliminate detritus. I see it as nutrient recycling where micro fauna & fana process organic & inorganuc nutrients into live food for hungry mouths.

 

[Reign1]

Detrivors work just fine to eliminate detritus. I see it as nutrient recycling where micro fauna & fana process organic & inorganuc nutrients into live food for hungry mouths.

I have been running Jaubert plenum, dsb and reverse ug for 53 years. While some of those could happen, it’s most likely operator error as he cause.

You must be from Europe then as I believed the Jaubert method was really only coming around US in the early mid nineties .. You from France , Germany ?

 

[Subsea]

Appreciate the feedback! For #1, I’ll have a clean out pipe or two that I can drop a tube down and syphon out any accumulation under the bottom plates where the water flows up through. #2….what do you mean by channeling? #3/4- so this would be in the sump and constantly have water flowing through it, so there would be no dead zones and I would think would allow oxygen through it. I’ve also read the concern about releasing gases into the tank when stirring up Deep sand beds, but not sure that would apply here due to the constant flow through it.

Again, appreciate the feedback, I want people to come at all angles before I put it into action or not.

@Perksr11
Do not mess with what is under the ug filter in the plenum void. Cryptic sponges are unique
in how they process DOC

 

[Subsea]

You must be from Europe then as I believed the Jaubert method was really only coming around US in the early mid nineties .. You from France , Germany ?

I ran Jaubert in 1971. In my home in Louisiana,
However, I was stationed in Germany between 1967-70 and we flew diplomatic flights into France & Spain.

 

[Reign1]

I ran Jaubert in 1971. In my home in Louisiana,
However, I was stationed in Germany between 1967-70 and we flew diplomatic flights into France & Spain.

Wow pretty sweet .. Did you ever go to Monaco Aq?

 

[Reign1]

I ran Jaubert in 1971. In my home in Louisiana,
However, I was stationed in Germany between 1967-70 and we flew diplomatic flights into France & Spain.

Hmm according to history Jaubert Invented his system in 79’. You are saying you used system in 71 which is 8 years prior to that. Perhaps you are confused about the year ??