Royal gramma : very lethargic, not eating

[sck90]

Hello,

I decided to pull my royal gramma out of the display tank this afternoon. It has been VERY lethargic since I'd say around a month. It has been hiding in its hole between rocks, but I could see it daily. When it started hiding all day long, it started to show less and less interest in food. I observed many times that it tryed to catch a mysis shrimp passing by the opening of its hiding place, but it almost always failed to catch it (it missed the target and bit the water). It was a great eater and always out in the open before.

Gradually, over the last weeks, it became even more lethargic and skittish and completely lost interested in food. I did not see it eat for at least 2 weeks, but still it isn't that skinny.

Yesterday, I found him in a bottom corner of the tank. Not looking so bad, but still extremely lethargic and not eating. I decided to catch it today and move it to the coral qt tank while I setup the fish qt. Easiest catch of my life...

I can see some discoloration on its skin, but not that major at all. Eyes are clear and fins look Ok to me. Breathing rate is not fast at all, I'd even say it's pretty low. It was even lower in the display tank before catching it (like one breath every 2 seconds).

I have been thinking of flukes, but that is not probable IMO, from what I know. Every other fish in the tank is very healthy (no sign of disease, very good eaters, active, colorful, etc.). As I said, the breathing rate is not fast at all and I did not see the gramma dart or scratch itself. All fish were treated with copper and with praziquantel or hyposalinity before entering the display tank.

I'm asking for your help, please... What could the problem be ? Can I treat the fish ?

Here is a video of the fish, now in the qt tank.



Thank you in advance !

 

[Gumbies R Us]

#fishmedics

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

What other fish are in the tank and what size is the tank? I can't tell if its tail is bitten up, or if its just more discoloration.

 

[sck90]

The tank is a 36" 60 gal.

The gramma was one of the 4 first fish added in the tank 8 months ago, along with 2 bicinctus clownfish and a longnose hawkfish. They were quarantined together.

A Flame hawkfish and 2 fairy wrasses were added after. The last fish added is a midas blenny two months ago.

I never saw any of these fish bother or attack the gramma. It started to become lethargic shortly after the Midas blenny arrived, but I think this is mosly coincidental.

Water parameters are impeccable and all other tank inhabitants (corals and inverts) are thriving.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

#fishmedics can help you, good luck

 

[Sharkbait19]

It does sound like it could be pressured out of food by tankmates. Clowns can be sneaky with aggression. Nothing jumps out as looking wrong with the fish.
Any recent scape changes? Are there enough hiding spots?

 

[sck90]

Aggression might be possible, but as I said, the gramma has been with the clowns for 8 months without any problem. The gramma has always been out and eating like a pig before this lethargic episode.

The tank is full of hiding places. Here is a FTS :

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Aggression might be possible, but as I said, the gramma has been with the clowns for 8 months without any problem. The gramma has always been out and eating like a pig before this lethargic episode.

The tank is full of hiding places. Here is a FTS :

I couldn't tell from the video for certain, but it doesn't look like the gramma is breathing fast. It does seem to have some missing scales, but the fins look ok.

I think you can rule out any problems with the tank itself.

Gramma are prone to flukes, but that would be unusual given the 8 months the fish has been in your tank.

Do you have a good smaller tank you could move it into for possible treatment (or at least isolation to fully rule out aggression from the midas blenny).

 

[sck90]

I couldn't tell from the video for certain, but it doesn't look like the gramma is breathing fast. It does seem to have some missing scales, but the fins look ok.

I think you can rule out any problems with the tank itself.

Gramma are prone to flukes, but that would be unusual given the 8 months the fish has been in your tank.

Do you have a good smaller tank you could move it into for possible treatment (or at least isolation to fully rule out aggression from the midas blenny).

Thank you for shiming in.

The fish has already been transferred in an isolation tank (coral qt). The fish qt will be ready later today and I will be able to treat the fish if necessary. I have copperpower, Fritz paracleanse, and Seachem Kanaplex on hand. I will try and feed the fish during lunch time when I am back home. If the fish eats, aggression clearly was the problem, but I really doubt it.

 

[sck90]

To my surprise, the gramma did eat a little bit this noon ! It grabbed 2 mysis and 2-3 flakes. It is still hiding, but it's the first time I see it eat since 2-3 weeks, so that's encouraging. I'll monitor closely and keep you informed.

If this was an aggression issue, would the clowns likely be the culprits ? I can clearly see that they boss the tank. Is the midas blenny another possibility ? I have seen the blenny chasing the wrasses and the flame hawkfish in some occasions.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

To my surprise, the gramma did eat a little bit this noon ! It grabbed 2 mysis and 2-3 flakes. It is still hiding, but it's the first time I see it eat since 2-3 weeks, so that's encouraging. I'll monitor closely and keep you informed.

If this was an aggression issue, would the clowns likely be the culprits ? I can clearly see that they boss the tank. Is the midas blenny another possibility ? I have seen the blenny chasing the wrasses and the flame hawkfish in some occasions.

I suspect the Midas, but it’s tough to say for sure.
You could try setting up your phone to video the tank when you leave the room. Even then, you may not find the culprit.

 

[Sharkbait19]

I usually will jump to clowns being the culprits first, but I’ve had some bad experiences with them. The blenny is most likely to compete for territory so would also be a potential threat, especially if the issues only started after it was added.

 

[EuphyllinOHk]

I don't have a lot of experience, but aggression/intimidation tends to lead to some odd and concerning behaviors. I think some of the more experienced folks would recommend an acclimation box for the gramma, when you return it, after observation. If you keep it in there for some time, in order to reintroduce it from a distance, you can reduce the risk of further aggression.

 

[sck90]

I suspect the Midas, but it’s tough to say for sure.
You could try setting up your phone to video the tank when you leave the room. Even then, you may not find the culprit.

I have a wireless camera and tryed to see what is happening, but the problem is that the gramma was always hiding, so I never could see which fish is intimidating it.

I usually will jump to clowns being the culprits first, but I’ve had some bad experiences with them. The blenny is most likely to compete for territory so would also be a potential threat, especially if the issues only started after it was added.

The more I think about it, the more I think the blenny is the culprit. The gramma has been fine for months with the clowns.

I don't have a lot of experience, but aggression/intimidation tends to lead to some odd and concerning behaviors. I think some of the more experienced folks would recommend an acclimation box for the gramma, when you return it, after observation. If you keep it in there for some time, in order to reintroduce it from a distance, you can reduce the risk of further aggression.

I just ordered a fish trap because my plan was to remove the clowns from the tank. I might use it as an acclimation box when I feel the gramma is ready to return. I a little bit puzzled regarding how I should handle the case...

Thank you to all for your help. Any other advice would be welcome !

 

[Sharkbait19]

You can try putting the gramma in the isolation box and see who comes up to it.
Or individually remove each potential culprit and see when the problem goes away.

 

[sck90]

Well, I thought the gramma was doing better when I saw it eat a couple of mysis, but the fish is still isolated in the qt tank and still extremely lethargic. It basically lies on its side all day long and did not eat after I saw it eat a couple of days ago.

I decided to do a 5 min freshwater bath yesterday to check for flukes. No flukes dropped off and the fish is not doing better today, so even if the flukes were too small to see with naked eye (I thought about gill flukes), the FW bath should have relieved it temporarily if flukes were the cause.

So, I'm really lost. I cant understand what is going on. Is it possible that a fish injured the gramma ? Or maybe it reached the end of it's life ? The marks on its skin (missing scales) are the only visible sign of illness, besides it being extremely lethargic and not eating.

Any input ?

Thank you.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Well, I thought the gramma was doing better when I saw it eat a couple of mysis, but the fish is still isolated in the qt tank and still extremely lethargic. It basically lies on its side all day long and did not eat after I saw it eat a couple of days ago.

I decided to do a 5 min freshwater bath yesterday to check for flukes. No flukes dropped off and the fish is not doing better today, so even if the flukes were too small to see with naked eye (I thought about gill flukes), the FW bath should have relieved it temporarily if flukes were the cause.

So, I'm really lost. I cant understand what is going on. Is it possible that a fish injured the gramma ? Or maybe it reached the end of it's life ? The marks on its skin (missing scales) are the only visible sign of illness, besides it being extremely lethargic and not eating.

Any input ?

Thank you.

Grammas can act pretty flaky when held in isolation boxes, but this seems more severe than that.

FW dips actually make symptoms worse for the first day or so after them (the flukes drop off and leave open sores). However, if it is still acting off tomorrow, then it probably wasn't flukes.

 

[sck90]

Grammas can act pretty flaky when held in isolation boxes, but this seems more severe than that.

FW dips actually make symptoms worse for the first day or so after them (the flukes drop off and leave open sores). However, if it is still acting off tomorrow, then it probably wasn't flukes.

Just to make it clear, the fish is not in an isolation box, but in a 10 gal qt. I know this is not an ideal environment, but when I quarantined the same gramma several months ago in the same qt tank, it was acting just fine. I hope it will be better tomorrow, I'll let you know.

Thanks a lot for your time.