Ryan's Biome Cycling Talk

[livinlifeinBKK]

We don't need to speculate. They just did a 30 week long test with dna testing to back up their data, and live rock directly from the ocean is not a good idea. All you're doing is introducing a bunch of pests that your previously sterile tank is not prepared to deal with, and it will be quickly overrun.

I don't recall this quote you made being supported by the video first of all. He never said live rock from the ocean isn't a good idea, he said he'd personally prepare it a certain way first. He also didn't say all you're doing is introducing a bunch of pests that will overrun your tank.

Yeah, you can buy everything you need separately if you really want to or just get it all together fresh from nature and depending on the size of your system you really don't even need to QT it...a LOT of people don't. There's a lot that you simply can not get such as many bacterial strains and natural biofilm unless you use live rock. It's simply not possible at this point in time.

 

[rennjidk]

I don't recall this quote you made being supported by the video first of all. He never said live rock from the ocean isn't a good idea, he said he'd personally prepare it a certain way first. He also didn't say all you're doing is introducing a bunch of pests that will overrun your tank.

Yeah, you can buy everything you need separately if you really want to or just get it all together fresh from nature and depending on the size of your system you really don't even need to QT it...a LOT of people don't. There's a lot that you simply can not get such as many bacterial strains and natural biofilm unless you use live rock. It's simply not possible at this point in time.

You’re right, not bothering to QT live rock direct from the ocean is a great idea and you should just throw it in your tank. I’m done arguing this point. Never mind the fact that everything you’re quoting from Ryan’s primer is from the “live rock” from the brs160 which was dark cycled, and not the gulf rock which was in their other tank in the series (which you would know if you actually watched it).

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

You’re right, not bothering to QT live rock direct from the ocean is a great idea and you should just throw it in your tank. I’m done arguing this point. Never mind the fact that everything you’re quoting from Ryan’s primer is from the “live rock” from the brs160 which was dark cycled, and not the gulf rock which was in their other tank in the series (which you would know if you actually watched it).

Did I watch the wrong video? This is the one I watched...

 

[rennjidk]

Did I watch the wrong video? This is the one I watched...

It’s a 9 part series with like 16 different tanks.

edit: you’re on the right playlist, but just watching the primer.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

It’s a 9 part series with like 16 different tanks.

Oh ok, I'll watch more then...just sharing what I caught from his speech...I just didn't hear him condemn wild live rock at any point like your first reply to me made it sound...and also, my primary concern isn't the ugly stage when setting up a new tank which is part of why using live rock is so important to me

 

[rennjidk]

Oh ok, I'll watch more then...just sharing what I caught from his speech...I just didn't hear him condemn wild live rock at any point like your first reply to me made it sound...and also, my primary concern isn't the ugly stage when setting up a new tank which is part of why using live rock is so important to me

The live gulf rock had the highest diversity score, but the lowest balance score of all the tanks tested, and was quickly overrun when the lights turned on in week 11.

edit: He further goes on to say that it was the worst looking tank of all the tanks tested and not what we should be striving for in a reef tank.

 

[rennjidk]

also, my primary concern isn't the ugly stage when setting up a new tank which is part of why using live rock is so important to me

This is what we're trying to convey, (not me personally, I'm not affiliated with BRS though I love their investigates). I'm just a long time fish keeper with a career in biology (not a microbiologist). This isn't magic, it's science. There is no "mystery biology" happening here. We just lacked the ability to understand what was going on in our own tanks before. Now that we have the ability, people still refuse the information and turn a blind eye, providing anecdotes about what's worked for them in the past. This may have been how reef keeping evolved, but it's not what we should be practicing today. You can flat out skip "the ugly stage." It's not a thing when you know what causes it and how to manage what's going on.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

The live gulf rock had the highest diversity score, but the lowest balance score of all the tanks tested, and was quickly overrun when the lights turned on in week 11.

edit: He further goes on to say that it was the worst looking tank of all the tanks tested and not what we should be striving for in a reef tank.

I'm still watching but one thing I think is very important to point out is that according to Aquabiomics where the rock is sourced from plays a huge part in it's biodiversity and they emphasize the importance of the diversity of the microbiome for health. I don't source my rock anywhere close to the Gulf of Mexico and personally wouldn't want all the photosynthetic organisms that come with it either. I still do find it interesting though that Ryan said he would use live rock after "cooking" it...

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

This is what we're trying to convey, (not me personally, I'm not affiliated with BRS though I love their investigates). I'm just a long time fish keeper with a career in biology (not a microbiologist). This isn't magic, it's science. There is no "mystery biology" happening here. We just lacked the ability to understand what was going on in our own tanks before. Now that we have the ability, people still refuse the information and turn a blind eye, providing anecdotes about what's worked for them in the past. This may have been how reef keeping evolved, but it's not what we should be practicing today. You can flat out skip "the ugly stage." It's not a thing when you know what causes it and how to manage what's going on.

One reason that live ocean rock is almost essential in my particular case is due to the starfish I'm keeping that need to feed off the biofilm which is impossible to produce. You have to get the rocks that already have the biofilm growing on it...I'm working on trying to find an alternative food source but am unsure if they're able to meet their nutritional requirements without natural biofilm

 

[i cant think]

I’ve had both LR and Dry Rock running at the same time, one thing I did notice was on the LR the time it took to get rid of uglies was a lot less. On my Dry Rock it became over run with Cyano later on. This put up a false wall of the tank being ready for coral faster when it wasn’t and cyano bloomed in the next month after my first coral was added. In my 4’ tank, the dry rock had algae and bacterial blooms early on but then it was over within a few weeks.
My dry rock algae bloom was taking over for a year.
This is my Nano when it went through the cyano bloom with Dry Rock (Not a great photo).

And this is with the Live Rock it now has. There’s a clear difference, in which I had more bacteria come in to outcompete the cyano. And honestly, the other pests you find along the way is all part of the fun. Before Dry Rock came in the best thing about this hobby was the pests and bacteria that you just can’t get on dry rock.

 

[i cant think]

Just wanted to give Ryan a shoutout! I'm on my second viewing now of his Biome Cycling talk, and there is some GREAT stuff in there. It has changed the way I look at cycling tanks and what the definition of a "mature" tank is. I've heard people say for decades that you had to wait 6 months for anemones, or a year for SPS. Nobody could ever say why, but I think you're on to it.

Anyway... Good stuff. I think everyone should watch it. I just ordered some phyto and pods myself.

Totally agree! They have some amazing information on there.
Every days a school day I guess

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

One measurement they used that I didn't quite understand was the "balance". Im sure they explained it somewhere and I just missed it but it sounded like it is a comparison between the DNA analysis of each tank compared to an average tank but how do they determine that it's best to have a tank that's close to the average? How did they determine that a tank with an altogether different DNA analysis wouldn't be beneficial in some way or to certain organisms? Also, wasnt the way they showed the progression of the tanks' ugly stages visually misleading a little since nutrient levels varied GREATLY depending on the tank in question? You may see the Gulf Live Rock tank for example full to the brim with hair algae and cyano and then see the tank with all dry rock and dry sand looking pristine but not many people would just allow for the nutrient levels to skyrocket without at least regular water changes if they were having that much die off on their live rock. It would've been nice if they noted the nutrient levels so everyone could see part of the issue was the die off and not simply presence of photosynthetic organisms on the rock for example.

 

[GlassMunky]

I used aquabiomics testing for over 6 months on my old system…..
I found their tests not to be very accurate and could change wildly. Even the same sample tested under 2 names came back with wildly different results.
Take everything that company says with a big grain of salt

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I used aquabiomics testing for over 6 months on my old system…..
I found their tests not to be very accurate and could change wildly. Even the same sample tested under 2 names came back with wildly different results.
Take everything that company says with a big grain of salt

Really? I hadn't heard that before, I've never used them myself.

 

[GlassMunky]

Yea. And In addition to that, when I was using them they were horrendously slow. So slow that I would regularly mail in the next months test before I got back the previous months results. So even the info I got was kinda useless over a month later what am I supposed to do with that info? And then dealing with them in a customer service manner because of the slow service was also just sub par, most months I wouldn’t even get a reply back from them and would have message or call them almost daily to talk to someone.
Overall just a bad company all around in my experience.
maybe they have improved since then, but they left a terrible taste in my mouth and if it helps anyone else not have to deal with the headache I’m glad to share my story

 

[rtparty]

I used aquabiomics testing for over 6 months on my old system…..
I found their tests not to be very accurate and could change wildly. Even the same sample tested under 2 names came back with wildly different results.
Take everything that company says with a big grain of salt

Do you have the results that you could post by chance?

 

[GlassMunky]

Do you have the results that you could post by chance?

Maybe I still have them somewhere in my old email, but it’s been probably over a year since I used them

 

[rtparty]

Maybe I still have them somewhere in my old email, but it’s been probably a year since I used them

Do they not keep your results on their site in some way? Fur example, when you ICP test with ATI they keep all your results online for easy access later

 

[GlassMunky]

Do they not keep your results on their site in some way? Fur example, when you ICP test with ATI they keep all your results online for easy access later

I dunno I honestly havnt thought about them since I stopped using them before I saw this thread.
Nothing about their customer experience was in any way positive

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I will admit, it must be quite a task offering DNA analysis for tanks...BUT if you're in business and taking money to do just that, then you should provide as good of service as possible.