Second New DIY Two Part Recipe with Higher pH Boost

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks, I doubled check against some of those to make sure . The question I had was really around the other side reactions with the Strong C that is mixed in.

The other component is Strong C which is made of iodide and fluoride per AF. It states is raises the potassium my guess its made from potassium iodide and potassium fluoride.

None of those would seem to be an issue, and in general, anything that normally goes into an alk part that uses bicarbonate or carbonate can likely go in hydroxide.

 

[Reefs and Geeks]

I've been dosing this high pH 2 part for maybe 6 weeks now and am loving the results! my alk consumption jumped fairly rapidly from 160ml/day to around 250ml/day compared to the soda ash version. The only issue I'm having is my dosing pump seems to have a sealing issue with the high pH alk solution. I've tried cutting a few inches off the end of the dosing lines to get some fresh hose, but still seems to have some amount of leakage. The attached picture is about a week after I cleaned everything up and replaced the 2x4 standoff I have the dosing pump on. It isn't pouring out, but enough to leave a constant small puddle that seems to be eating away at the wood. Not the end of the world, but I do have small children that play near the basement sump area with the doser and I'd feel better, if nothing else, if the doser wasn't leaking. I plan on tackling some wire managment and puting the doser somewhere a bit more out of reach, but want to make sure it's not going to be leaking first.

Anyone else having this issue or have a fix for it? I tried putting small zip ties at the ends of the hose to grip the barb tighter, but that seems to have the opposite effect and causes the hose to slip off the barb.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've been dosing this high pH 2 part for maybe 6 weeks now and am loving the results! my alk consumption jumped fairly rapidly from 160ml/day to around 250ml/day compared to the soda ash version. The only issue I'm having is my dosing pump seems to have a sealing issue with the high pH alk solution. I've tried cutting a few inches off the end of the dosing lines to get some fresh hose, but still seems to have some amount of leakage. The attached picture is about a week after I cleaned everything up and replaced the 2x4 standoff I have the dosing pump on. It isn't pouring out, but enough to leave a constant small puddle that seems to be eating away at the wood. Not the end of the world, but I do have small children that play near the basement sump area with the doser and I'd feel better, if nothing else, if the doser wasn't leaking. I plan on tackling some wire managment and puting the doser somewhere a bit more out of reach, but want to make sure it's not going to be leaking first.

Anyone else having this issue or have a fix for it? I tried putting small zip ties at the ends of the hose to grip the barb tighter, but that seems to have the opposite effect and causes the hose to slip off the barb.

Some types of tubing may not be able to take the high pH. Polyethylene and polypropylene certainly can,a nd I expect silicone tubing is also fine.

here's a table of some types:

https://www.hollandapt.com/Documents/Ctrl_Hyperlink/Masterflex_Tubing_Chemcial_Compatability_uid172010827381.pdf

The solution is between dilute sodium hydroxide and 25% sodium hydroxide in the table.

 

[Reefs and Geeks]

Some types of tubing may not be able to take the high pH. Polyethylene and polypropylene certainly can,a nd I expect silicone tubing is also fine.

here's a table of some types:

https://www.hollandapt.com/Documents/Ctrl_Hyperlink/Masterflex_Tubing_Chemcial_Compatability_uid172010827381.pdf

The solution is between dilute sodium hydroxide and 25% sodium hydroxide in the table.

Thank you Randy. I've been driving myself just a little crazy trying to track down the material of the tubing I have, of which I'm using 2 different tube materials. One is the "standard" off the shelf clear airline tubing, and the other is a softer black tubing also made for aquarium airline. After looking at the tube end connections under a microscope, I'm actually seeing that the plastic barb connector that connects the pump head tubing to the airline tubing is cracked on both the inlet and outlet sides. I'm guessing that's the issue more than the tubing. No visible damage to the tubing. From the masterflex chart, it looks like polycarbonate is not very compatible. I'm guessing that's the material--clear hard plastic.

Any suggestions on known replacement barb-barb connections that I could buy to replace them? for now I just replaced the head, but I'm sure the new connections on that will crack soon enough as well.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you Randy. I've been driving myself just a little crazy trying to track down the material of the tubing I have, of which I'm using 2 different tube materials. One is the "standard" off the shelf clear airline tubing, and the other is a softer black tubing also made for aquarium airline. After looking at the tube end connections under a microscope, I'm actually seeing that the plastic barb connector that connects the pump head tubing to the airline tubing is cracked on both the inlet and outlet sides. I'm guessing that's the issue more than the tubing. No visible damage to the tubing. From the masterflex chart, it looks like polycarbonate is not very compatible. I'm guessing that's the material--clear hard plastic.

Any suggestions on known replacement barb-barb connections that I could buy to replace them? for now I just replaced the head, but I'm sure the new connections on that will crack soon enough as well.

Correct, polycarbonate is likely among the worst plastics for high pH.

I'm not sure what the connections are exactly like but polypropylene is a perfect choice:

Polypropylene Tubing Fittings Category | Polypropylene Hose Barb Tube Fittings | Elbows, Wyes & Tees | U.S. Plastic Corp.

U.S. Plastic Corp.® has an extensive selection of polypropylene hose barb tube fittings including elbows, wyes and tees, as well as luers and adapters.

www.usplastic.com

PVC should also be OK, but more and more folks are concerned about tin in PVC

 

[Reefs and Geeks]

Correct, polycarbonate is likely among the worst plastics for high pH.

I'm not sure what the connections are exactly like but polypropylene is a perfect choice:

Polypropylene Tubing Fittings Category | Polypropylene Hose Barb Tube Fittings | Elbows, Wyes & Tees | U.S. Plastic Corp.

U.S. Plastic Corp.® has an extensive selection of polypropylene hose barb tube fittings including elbows, wyes and tees, as well as luers and adapters.

www.usplastic.com

PVC should also be OK, but more and more folks are concerned about tin in PVC

Thank you very much I'll order some polypropylene ones. I appreciate the link.

Just out of curiosity, would high pH strip out the tin in PVC or anything like that? I personally have all PVC hard lines for my drains and returns, so adding a tiny fitting would not phase me unless the alk supplement reacted with it somehow.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you very much I'll order some polypropylene ones. I appreciate the link.

Just out of curiosity, would high pH strip out the tin in PVC or anything like that? I personally have all PVC hard lines for my drains and returns, so adding a tiny fitting would not phase me unless the alk supplement reacted with it somehow.

There are many different tin stabilizers, and I'm not sure whether higher or lower aquarium pH will tend to be more likely to cause release, if it has any effect at all.

 

[GainesvilleReef]

I have been dosing saturated kalk directly through dosing pumps for several years. I have also run into problems with polycarbonate fittings on some brands of pumps. I have never had a problem with Neptune DOS or BRS pumps.

 

[GillMeister]

Correct, polycarbonate is likely among the worst plastics for high pH.

I'm not sure what the connections are exactly like but polypropylene is a perfect choice:

Polypropylene Tubing Fittings Category | Polypropylene Hose Barb Tube Fittings | Elbows, Wyes & Tees | U.S. Plastic Corp.

U.S. Plastic Corp.® has an extensive selection of polypropylene hose barb tube fittings including elbows, wyes and tees, as well as luers and adapters.

www.usplastic.com

PVC should also be OK, but more and more folks are concerned about tin in PVC

Generally speaking, a semi-crystalline polymer is going to be the most resistant to chemicals and pH. The other type of polymer used in tubing is amorphous. The closed molecular structure of semi-crystalline polymer chains is what creates this resistance and it also has the effect of making the material translucent or opaque in its natural state. Amorphous polymers, unless altered with a pigment, are typically transparent. At least, if you see a transparent tube, you can assume it's amorphous. Examples of common semi-crystalline tubes are polyethylene and nylon. Amorphous tubes to avoid in this application would be polyurethane or pvc. They might offer some short term resistance but eventually could fail. Silicone is a thermoset rubber and offer good chemical resistance and flexibility. It's also inert. Another benefit is that it has no plasticizers that would leach into the water. Plasticizers are added to plastics to increase flexibility. If you've heard of phthalate, this is a good example.

Criminy, after typing all that in I realized I'm preaching chemistry to a chemist. Too late, I went through all that work. I'm posting it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Criminy, after typing all that in I realized I'm preaching chemistry to a chemist. Too late, I went through all that work. I'm posting it.

A polymer chemist, actually. lol

All of my real world inventions are polymers for various purposes, especially as pharmaceuticals.

FWIW, literally nothing can happen to polyethylene or polypropylene in water at any pH, from -1 to 15.

 

[GillMeister]

A polymer chemist, actually. lol

All of my real world inventions are polymers for various purposes, especially as pharmaceuticals.

FWIW, literally nothing can happen to polyethylene or polypropylene in water at any pH, from -1 to 15.

These comments were intended primarily for the benefit of those trying to find suitable tubing for the hobby.

My knowledge of polymers extends only to the practical Engineering side. Medical, but not pharma. I haven't seen any polypropylene tubing so I didn't mention it.

Even though your background is polymer chemistry you have an excellent grasp on reef chemistry. We're lucky to have you.

 

[Christo]

What percentage v/v NaOH wil the solution more or less be?

 

[Christo]

What percentage v/v NaOH wil the solution more or less be?

mass/mass Sorry

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

283 grams of sodium hydroxide to 1 gallon (3785 mL) final volume of fresh water is about 7.5% by weight.

 

[GainesvilleReef]

A polymer chemist, actually. lol

All of my real world inventions are polymers for various purposes, especially as pharmaceuticals.

FWIW, literally nothing can happen to polyethylene or polypropylene in water at any pH, from -1 to 15.

This explains why my saturated kalk container made with an HDPE carboy, ro tubing, and john guest fittings have lasted about 7 years. I use silicon tubing to connect to my dosing pumps. Never leaks.

A sticky thread at the top of the forum with info about container/tubing materials for the various things we dose would be very helpful for a lot of us. I was just lucky putting together what I did.

 

[Betex]

In a previous thread, I posted a true two part DIY recipe:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-diy-two-part-recipes-with-higher-ph-boost.344500/

But some folks may want to just swap the new ingredient into my 2/3 part recipe (as used by BRS, for example).

Here's the original recipe link (which has a lot more discussion on the details and rationale):

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

The new recipe is shown below. It has about twice the pH boost of the original recipe (#1) and should be added to a very high flow area. Initial cloudiness (magnesium hydroxide) is expected, but it should disperse and dissolve. If not, stop using it and figure out why.

Alk part

Add 283 grams of sodium hydroxide to 1 gallon of fresh water. It will get quite warm. Make sure it doesn't soften your container. This solution will contain about 1,900 meq/L of alkalinity (5,300 dKH). BE CAREFUL WITH THIS SOLUTION: IT HAS A pH ABOVE 14. Do not get it in your eyes or on your skin.

Calcium part

Dissolve 500 grams (about 2 ½ cups) of calcium chloride dihydrate (such as Dowflake 77-80% calcium chloride or ESV calcium chloride; see below for substitutes and sources) in enough water to make 1 gallon of total volume. You can dissolve it in about ½ gallon of water, and then pour that into the 1 gallon container and fill it to the top with more freshwater. This solution has about 37,000 ppm calcium.

Magnesium part

Dissolve Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate heptahydrate (3 cups) and magnesium chloride hexahydrate (5 cups) in enough purified freshwater to make 1 gallon total volume. There will likely be a precipitate that forms even if you fully dissolve both ingredients separately. That precipitate is calcium sulfate (calcium as an impurity in the magnesium chloride and sulfate from the Epsom salts). It is fine and appropriate to dose the precipitate along with the remainder of the fluid by shaking it up before dosing.

This solution is added much less frequently or in lower volume than the other two parts. Add 16% as much as the other two parts. Over the time you add 1 gallon of the others, 1 add 610 mL (2 ½ cups) of this solution. You can add it all at once or, preferably, over time as you choose, depending on the aquarium's size and set up. Add it to a high flow area, preferably a sump. In a very small aquarium, or one without a sump, I suggest adding it slowly.

This is great thank you so much. Just have 1 quick question I do want to use this recipe due to its boost in PH however I still have some BRS packets for soda ash, calc, mag can I just replace the alk component with your recipe and still utilize the BRS for calc/mag?

Also I am assuming this being food grade it will work for the alk part:
Amazon.com: Sodium Hydroxide - Pure - Food Grade (Caustic Soda, Lye) (2 Pound Jar): Health & Personal Care

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is great thank you so much. Just have 1 quick question I do want to use this recipe due to its boost in PH however I still have some BRS packets for soda ash, calc, mag can I just replace the alk component with your recipe and still utilize the BRS for calc/mag?

Also I am assuming this being food grade it will work for the alk part:
Amazon.com: Sodium Hydroxide - Pure - Food Grade (Caustic Soda, Lye) (2 Pound Jar): Health & Personal Care

Yes, that is the intended recipe.

Yes on the product linked.

 

[Betex]

Yes, that is the intended recipe.

Yes on the product linked.

Thank you much again for confirming this. One last question how much does 1ML of this recipe raise 1Liter’s dkh. I think by calculators it’s 5.31 but just double checking.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you much again for confirming this. One last question how much does 1ML of this recipe raise 1Liter’s dkh. I think by calculators it’s 5.31 but just double checking.

Correct. I'd advise to use this calculator and Randy's recipe 1.

Reef Chemistry Calculator

 

[daelie]

@Randy Holmes-Farley
I'm using tropic marin balling, dosing all 3 parts the same amounts. If I wanted to switch out the part b (sodium carbonate/sodium bicarbonate) for sodium hydroxide, is that possible to just straight switch part b for NaOH and continue, and would the 283g/gallon mixture be the right concentration to make the dose equal as it was?