Second New DIY Two Part Recipe with Higher pH Boost

[nanomania]

Yes it is not entirely accurate but you get the ideal.. 1 mole of calciumchloride dihydrate = 147,01456 gr. 1 mole calcium weighs 40,078gr.
500 / 147,01456 * 40,078 = 136306 ppm / 3,7854 = 36008 ppm per liter.

So what about strontium? Was the calculation done the same way as u did now? Im a bit confused here.

 

[Tmmste]

So what about strontium? Was the calculation done the same way as u did now? Im a bit confused here.

Sorry, Randy can explain stuff much better indeed. Well around 1:100 ratio is 1,814% of calcium chloride dihydrate. 0,018136 * 500 = 9,068 gr. You are at 8.3 that is 8,4% less.. 100 * 1,0846 = 108 rounded.. so 1:108.

8,3 gr contains 2,727 gr strontium.. if my stock solution is 1 liter I would have a total of 2727 mg/l = 2727 ppm.. if my stock solution is 1 gallon I have 720 ppm per liter. I am not used to calculating things in gallons. I prefer liters as it makes it much easier to calculate ppm. 1 liter of stock with 1 gram = 1000 ppm = 1000 mg/l.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is there a concern?

A 1:108 mole ratio is essentially what I was aiming for, since that is approximately the ratio in corals and abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate:

See, for example, Figure 2 here:

https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2015/1182/ofr20151182.pdf

The strontium to calcium mole ratio is 9.1:1000, or inverted, 1:110

 

[nanomania]

Is there a concern?

A 1:108 mole ratio is essentially what I was aiming for, since that is approximately the ratio in corals and abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate:

See, for example, Figure 2 here:

https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2015/1182/ofr20151182.pdf

The strontium to calcium mole ratio is 9.1:1000, or inverted, 1:110

So 1gallon (3.8liter) will have 37000ppm of calcium and 2727ppm of strontium right?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No, that was not the recipe.

I'm confused. Are you adding it to a two part, or a stand alone dosing solution?

Why do you want to know the concentration?

My recommendation of 8.3 grams strontium chloride hexahydrate is per gallon. That material is 32.9% strontium by weight, so it contains 2.73 grams of strontium. Put that in a full gallon (3.79 L) and the concentration is 2730 mg/3.79 L = 720 mg/L.

Tmmste was making a solution in 1 L, not 1 gallon, so his concentration is higher.

 

[nanomania]

No, that was not the recipe.

I'm confused. Are you adding it to a two part, or a stand alone dosing solution?

Why do you want to know the concentration?

My recommendation of 8.3 grams strontium chloride hexahydrate is per gallon. That material is 32.9% strontium by weight, so it contains 2.73 grams of strontium. Put that in a full gallon (3.79 L) and the concentration is 2730 mg/3.79 L = 720 mg/L.

Tmmste was making a solution in 1 L, not 1 gallon, so his concentration is higher.

I want a single 1gallon solution for strontium and calcium, not separate..

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I want a single 1gallon solution for strontium and calcium, not separate..

Then mix it as I recommended and the strontium concentration is 720 mg/L.

 

[nanomania]

Then mix it as I recommended and the strontium concentration is 720 mg/L.

Thank you..

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

Happy reefing.

 

[Tmmste]

No, that was not the recipe.

I'm confused. Are you adding it to a two part, or a stand alone dosing solution?

Why do you want to know the concentration?

My recommendation of 8.3 grams strontium chloride hexahydrate is per gallon. That material is 32.9% strontium by weight, so it contains 2.73 grams of strontium. Put that in a full gallon (3.79 L) and the concentration is 2730 mg/3.79 L = 720 mg/L.

Tmmste was making a solution in 1 L, not 1 gallon, so his concentration is higher.

Hi Randy, do you happen to know where Balling got his 1:50 ratio from? it still puzzles me today. You can explain it much better haha!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi Randy, do you happen to know where Balling got his 1:50 ratio from? it still puzzles me today. You can explain it much better haha!

I've not seen that value and am not sure exactly what it was accounting for or how it was used. It may account for both the salinity effect and the uptake effect. Incorporation rate will depend strongly on the strontium value in the water. Maybe they used different uptake ratios to calcium.

If you wanted to account for the salinity change effect with strontium, we can estimate it.

With my DIY, if we add 1.1 dKH per day, we find the salinity rises about 32% over the course of a year. So after one year, strontium will drop from 8 mg/L (an assumed NSW starting point) to 5.44 mg/L, or a drop of 2.6 ppm.

We will have added about 2,868 ppm of calcium in that time (matching the alk demand).

Since our current design adds strontium at a rate of 720 ppm Sr/37000 ppm Ca, then we will have added 56 ppm of strontium.

Thus if we wanted to account for salinity changes, we'd add about 58.6 ppm vs 56 ppm, which seems a trivial difference.

Note this difference is not trivial for magnesium because a 32% drop in magnesium that starts at 1300 ppm is a huge drop of 416 ppm. That's why the magnesium correction is important and big, but the strontium salinity correction is small.

 

[Tmmste]

I've not seen that value and am not sure exactly what it was accounting for or how it was used. It may account for both the salinity effect and the uptake effect. Incorporation rate will depend strongly on the strontium value in the water. Maybe they used different uptake ratios to calcium.

If you wanted to account for the salinity change effect with strontium, we can estimate it.

With my DIY, if we add 1.1 dKH per day, we find the salinity rises about 32% over the course of a year. So after one year, strontium will drop from 8 mg/L (an assumed NSW starting point) to 5.44 mg/L, or a drop of 2.6 ppm.

We will have added about 2,868 ppm of calcium in that time (matching the alk demand).

Since our current design adds strontium at a rate of 720 ppm Sr/37000 ppm Ca, then we will have added 56 ppm of strontium.

Thus if we wanted to account for salinity changes, we'd add about 58.6 ppm vs 56 ppm, which seems a trivial difference.

Note this difference is not trivial for magnesium because a 32% drop in magnesium that starts at 1300 ppm is a huge drop of 416 ppm. That's why the magnesium correction is important and big, but the strontium salinity correction is small.

Indeed. I "tried" to explain this is post #158:

"if you would remove more or less would impact the amount of strontium you would need to add extra.. but it is just a very small amount anyway... potassium on the other hand has 44x more that would be a different story"

You can find the information here: http://reefsecrets.org/index.php/ch...ling-methode-toevoegingen-aan-het-zeeaquarium

It is in Dutch though. Sorry for that..:

"Een verder verband is er tussen de verhouding Calcium en Strontium als 50:1.
Bijvoorbeeld bij verbuik van 1 KH/liter = 7,16 mgr Calcium/liter zou dit moeten leiden tot het verbruik van 0,1432 mgr. Strontium."

It basically says 0.1432 Sr is used per 7.16 calcium... Frankly; DSR uses the same ratio for "DSR EZ Calcium" I read that somewhere, but could't find it.. (maybe I could be wrong,). anyway I ordered testkits myself for Sr / K / B / I.. and will be measuring what is happing if I use the 2% mole ratio.. I expect a rise.

Apart from that I also tried to figure out how much molybdate to incororpate into the kH solution. I noticed a conservative amount would be 0.0001 gr per 1000 meq/L kH solution (so per 40 gr sodiumhydroxide or 53 gr sodiumcarbonate or 84gr sodiumbicarbonate.. )This would be 0.0002gr sodium molybdate dihydrate. I wonder what you think Randy...

 

[nanomania]

Indeed. I "tried" to explain this is post #158:

"if you would remove more or less would impact the amount of strontium you would need to add extra.. but it is just a very small amount anyway... potassium on the other hand has 44x more that would be a different story"

You can find the information here: http://reefsecrets.org/index.php/ch...ling-methode-toevoegingen-aan-het-zeeaquarium

It is in Dutch though. Sorry for that..:

"Een verder verband is er tussen de verhouding Calcium en Strontium als 50:1.
Bijvoorbeeld bij verbuik van 1 KH/liter = 7,16 mgr Calcium/liter zou dit moeten leiden tot het verbruik van 0,1432 mgr. Strontium."

It basically says 0.1432 Sr is used per 7.16 calcium... Frankly; DSR uses the same ratio for "DSR EZ Calcium" I read that somewhere, but could't find it.. (maybe I could be wrong,). anyway I ordered testkits myself for Sr / K / B / I.. and will be measuring what is happing if I use the 2% mole ratio.. I expect a rise.

Apart from that I also tried to figure out how much molybdate to incororpate into the kH solution. I noticed a conservative amount would be 0.0001 gr per 1000 meq/L kH solution (so per 40 gr sodiumhydroxide or 53 gr sodiumcarbonate or 84gr sodiumbicarbonate.. )This would be 0.0002gr sodium molybdate dihydrate. I wonder what you think Randy...

Great i made a post here that is diy trace possible:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dosing-trace-diy-possible.369105/

Was looking for something similar where all trace can be mixed with either cal/alk solution, and be dosed together, including Moldy and other traces.

Basically there might be some sort of proportion to cal/alk that these traces can be used.

For eg. My friend has been using Seachem Reef Fusion 1&2, since past 3years now, without dosing any other supplements, nor water changes. He has an sps/lps tank. His tank is small as of now 30g, but corals are doing great. For me it becomes unaffordable, since i have a 130g mix reef, planning to add many more sps.

Is it possible to replicate something like this? Basically a balling method with traces included in cal/alk

Got this pic from the link i mentioned above..

 

[Tmmste]

Great i made a post here that is diy trace possible:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dosing-trace-diy-possible.369105/

Was looking for something similar where all trace can be mixed with either cal/alk solution, and be dosed together, including Moldy and other traces.

Basically there might be some sort of proportion to cal/alk that these traces can be used.

For eg. My friend has been using Seachem Reef Fusion 1&2, since past 3years now, without dosing any other supplements, nor water changes. He has an sps/lps tank. His tank is small as of now 30g, but corals are doing great. For me it becomes unaffordable, since i have a 130g mix reef, planning to add many more sps.

Is it possible to replicate something like this? Basically a balling method with traces included in cal/alk

Got this pic from the link i mentioned above..

I see. I currently use something like Randy's 3-part and now work on a custom version of JimWelsh 2-part. This only includes B, Mo, I, Sr, K.. Mn and Fe I will dose separately (Mn-EDTA, Fe-EDDHA). I am a bit reluctant to incorporate the other metals as I use no skimmer nor other mechanical filtration nor chemical filtration. This is what I came up thusfar.. in green are the Na:CI:SO4 ratios.. in blue what I add extra to compensate for the elements lost. In yellow are the fields I can adjust to my liking. The estimated amount of Ca per 2,8 kH.. if my kH drops and Ca remains constant I will lower this from 19,5 to 19.. time will tell. Apart from that, I adjust the target levels... now Ca 450, kH 10, Mg 1350, K 400, Sr 9, B 4,4 etcetera. And I can adjust the amount of water to remove to make sure the total salts added equal the amount of salts removed per liter aquarumwater (based on 30,143 gr NaCI per liter aquariumwater). Maybe there is something in there which you can use. Again here I use sodiumsulfate like JimWelsh.. so there is no magnesiumsulfate in this recipe and all the mg is added via magnesiumchloride hexahydrate. Apart from that I will also use the sodiumhydroxide as suggested by Randy.

This is for 1 liter stocksolution kH and 1 liter stocksolution Ca.. it is not that potent.. but for calculation purposes I prefer to keep it a bit less potent.. it is based on the 1 mole per 0,5 mole..and then calculates how much Mg is used if not 0,5 Ca is used but slightly less.

I will also adjust things in the course of time as I do not know to what extend an ATS also consumes elements..., so I am not stuck this way with loads of stock solution if I make a 10 liter batch. The amount of water I need to remove would be a totalof 2,48 liter per liter of stocksolution.. as soon as I liter is consumed I remove 2,48 liter of aquariumwater... auto top off with RODI and that's it. As I have no skimmer I should be able to keep extract an exact amount of water and keep salinity rocksteady this way (ofcourse the ratio Na:CI and salinity will not be the same.. but in the course of time the aquariumwater should gradually change to what I dose.) with a skimmer you will have to keep track of the amount of water removed... although Triton and DSR for example just assume you skim a bit wetter or something like that.. so probably not that important.. although if your tank is packed with sps and you dose tons salinity could rise pretty fast if you do not remove ample of water via skimming or manual removal.

If anything is calculated wrong, please let me know... I do my best but I am not a chemist and will probably mess up somewhere.

 

[nanomania]

I see. I currently use something like Randy's 3-part and now work on a custom version of JimWelsh 2-part. This only includes B, Mo, I, Sr, K.. Mn and Fe I will dose separately (Mn-EDTA, Fe-EDDHA). I am a bit reluctant to incorporate the other metals as I use no skimmer nor mechanical filtration. This is what I came up thusfar.. in green are the Na:CI:SO4 ratios.. in blue what I add extra to compensate for the elements lost. In yellow are the fields I can adjust to my liking. The estimated amount of Ca per 2,8 kH.. if my kH drops and Ca remains constant I will lower this from 19,5 to 19.. time will tell. Apart from that, I adjust the target levels... now Ca 450, kH 10, Mg 1350, K 400, Sr 9, B 4,4 etcetera. And I can adjust the amount of water to remove to make sure the total salts added equal the amount of salts removed per liter aquarumwater (based on 30,143 gr NaCI per liter aquariumwater). Maybe there is something in there which you can use. Again here I use sodiumsulfate like JimWelsh.. so there is no magnesiumsulfate in this recipe and all the mg is added via magnesiumchloride hexahydrate. Apart from that I will also use the sodiumhydroxide as suggested by Randy.

This is for 1 liter stocksolution kH and 1 liter stocksolution Ca.. it is not that potent.. but for calculation purposes I prefer to keep it a bit less potent.. it is based on the 1 mole per 0,5 mole..and then calculates how much Mg is used if not 0,5 Ca is used but slightly less.

I will also adjust things in the course of time as I do not know to what extend an ATS also consumes elements..., so I am not stuck this way with loads of stock solution if I make a 10 liter batch. The amount of water I need to remove would be a totalof 2,84 liter per liter of stocksolution.. as soon as I liter is consumed I remove 2,48 liter of aquariumwater... auto top off with RODI and that's it. As I have no skimmer I should be able to keep extract an exact amount of water and keep salinity rocksteady this way.. with a skimmer you will have to keep track of the amount of water removed... although Triton and DSR for example just assume you skim a bit wetter or something like that.. so probably not that important.. although if your tank is packed with sps and you dose tons salinity could rise pretty fast if you do not remove ample of water via skimming or manual removal.

That's just fantastic, as im experimenting on my 130g for my YouTube channel, its been a year now, its a NO SKIMMER, NO WATER CHANGES, NO TRITON, NO SUMP.

Only filtration is an undersize chaeto reactor, some filter floss (due to dust issue in my house), carbon (changed monthly) and purigen. Iv also stopped using po4 media since 2months, po4 still 0 using salifert, No3 at 15 (dosing 3ml of vinegar everyday). As for trace, I'm dosing Reef Plus 10ml every 10days.

So looking for something that doses all the traces too along with cal/alk/mag..

In regards to seachem reef fusion, they have only mentioned Reef Fusion 1 ingredients on the website:
Guaranteed Analysis - Reef Fusion 1

Amounts per 1 g

Calcium (min)95 mg
Calcium (max)105 mg
Magnesium5 mg
Strontium0.1 mg
Boron0.020 mg
Iron0.0005 mg
Manganese0.0001 mg
Molybdenum0.0005 mg
Rubidium0.014 mg

Ingredients: Calcium chloride, magnesium chloride, strontium chloride, rubidium chloride, sodium tetraborate, iron chloride, sodium molybdate, manganese sulfate

Reef Fusion 2[emoji769] contains a mixture of carbonates and bicarbonates at an alkalinity of 4400 meq/L. It is designed to restore and maintain alkalinity in the reef aquarium and provide calcareous species with the essential carbonate needed for growth.


However, Thanks for the help with Strontium @Tmmste and @Randy Holmes-Farley, looking forward on diy trace.

Here is the video of my tank update:

 

[Tmmste]

That's just fantastic, as im experimenting on my 130g for my YouTube channel, its been a year now, its a NO SKIMMER, NO WATER CHANGES, NO TRITON, NO SUMP.

Only filtration is an undersize chaeto reactor, some filter floss (due to dust issue in my house), carbon (changed monthly) and purigen. Iv also stopped using po4 media since 2months, po4 still 0 using salifert, No3 at 15 (dosing 3ml of vinegar everyday). As for trace, I'm dosing Reef Plus 10ml every 10days.

So looking for something that doses all the traces too along with cal/alk/mag..

In regards to seachem reef fusion, they have only mentioned Reef Fusion 1 ingredients on the website:
Guaranteed Analysis - Reef Fusion 1

Amounts per 1 g

Calcium (min)95 mg
Calcium (max)105 mg
Magnesium5 mg
Strontium0.1 mg
Boron0.020 mg
Iron0.0005 mg
Manganese0.0001 mg
Molybdenum0.0005 mg
Rubidium0.014 mg

Ingredients: Calcium chloride, magnesium chloride, strontium chloride, rubidium chloride, sodium tetraborate, iron chloride, sodium molybdate, manganese sulfate

Reef Fusion 2[emoji769] contains a mixture of carbonates and bicarbonates at an alkalinity of 4400 meq/L. It is designed to restore and maintain alkalinity in the reef aquarium and provide calcareous species with the essential carbonate needed for growth.


However, Thanks for the help with Strontium @Tmmste and @Randy Holmes-Farley, looking forward on diy trace.

Here is the video of my tank update:

Great than we could help each other out with our findings! I build a diy ATS and used to have cheato too. However, hairalgea is more efficient.. much more efficient. My scrubber is too big for my tank. 3000lph lid on 1 side with 14x 660nm photo red diy led this filters over 5 cubes a day with ease. No3 1 po4 0.03. It is lid from 1 side, else the algea will starve. Although I will pm you if I find out any particular changes.. i do not want to ruin this thread with non-topic related issues.
https://www.algaescrubbing.com/index.php?threads/908/

 

[nanomania]

Great than we could help each other out with our findings! I build a diy ATS and used to have cheato too. However, hairalgea is more efficient.. much more efficient. My scrubber is too big for my tank. 3000lph lid on 1 side with 14x 660nm photo red diy led this filters over 5 cubes a day with ease. No3 1 po4 0.03. It is lid from 1 side, else the algea will starve. Although I will pm you if I find out any particular changes.. i do not want to ruin this thread with non-topic related issues.
https://www.algaescrubbing.com/index.php?threads/908/

Exactly.. let's stick to diy supplements.. however let me know if there is a thread on a non skimmer no wc thread. We can disucss it there..

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It basically says 0.1432 Sr is used per 7.16 calcium... Frankly; DSR uses the same ratio for "DSR EZ Calcium" I read that somewhere, but could't find it.. (maybe I could be wrong,). anyway I ordered testkits myself for Sr / K / B / I.. and will be measuring what is happing if I use the 2% mole ratio.. I expect a rise.
..

Since the proportion of Sr incorporated into calcium carbonate will rise as the Sr concentration rises, the exact amount isn't especially critical since demand rises as the concentration rises, partially offsetting the rise.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Great i made a post here that is diy trace possible:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dosing-trace-diy-possible.369105/

Was looking for something similar where all trace can be mixed with either cal/alk solution, and be dosed together, including Moldy and other traces.

Basically there might be some sort of proportion to cal/alk that these traces can be used.

The problem is that the demand for trace elements may have little to do with the calcification rate, and might best be added separately under different controls.

For example, soft corals and algae may use as much or more of elements such as iron or molybdenun, and in the case of iron, simple precipitation may be among the larger sinks.

 

[nanomania]

The problem is that the demand for trace elements may have little to do with the calcification rate, and might best be added separately under different controls.

For example, soft corals and algae may use as much or more of elements such as iron or molybdenun, and in the case of iron, simple precipitation may be among the larger sinks.

Any idea how is my friend (a fellow hobbyist) being about to keep the tank since 2-3yrs only dosing reef fusion 1 and 2? Without wc. He only checks for cal/alk, fortunately his mag stays at prefered levels, occasionally doses it (seachem mag) keeping a bit higher level for algae control. Doses reefplus occasionally, but less then the recomended dose.

He is getting great result, but due to fast growth, and more sps, its falling a bit expensive for him, so he too is planning to switch to diy. I recommended him not to as of now, since his system is doing great.