Siphon Height

[niccumec]

I am building a new system with the sump in a room behind the DT. I would like the sump to be as high as possible to not have to mess with it on the floor and to reduce head pressure on the pumps. Is there a minimum distance I need for the siphon between the DT and sump? I am using a Modular Marine 3600 with 1.5" Bean Animal overflow design.

I know that I do not want any horizontal runs in the siphon line, but can I raise the sump as high as geometry will allow for the piping between the overflow and the sump? -or is there some magic amount of "fall" needed for silent Bean Animal overflow?

 

[Saltyreef]

I dont think height matters much on the full siphon line. Siphons can start with the smallest bit of differential. The trickle pipe would theoretically be more silent as there is less fall.

Maybe @BeanAnimal can chime in
I know hes one of the smarter math & physics guys around here.

 

[The_Paradox]

Gravity still works on a shorter run.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Siphon flow rate is determined by the surface distance between the two pools.

Yes gravity still works on the shorter run, but shorter fall means lower velocity means less volume per time.

Very low velocity and a large pipe may not be able to easily clear air.

What is the distance between the water level in the overflow box and the surface of the water sump? What return pump?

 

[Mr. Roboto]

I don't think I would ever go with the sump surface above the display tanks lowest point.

 

[o2manyfish]

Even if you have the tanks at the same height on either side of the wall, with a pipe mounted between the two tanks - not going up and over, but straight thru the wall, the water will flow from the tank being filled to the tank the water is being pumped out of.

Pending the "Actual" flow rate from the sump tank to the display tank a 1.5" of 2" pipe will handle the flow of a smaller tank. As the water rises up in one tank gravity will naturally pull the water thru the pipe to raise the water level in the tank the water is being pumped out of.

I have run multiple tanks in series where the flow runs into tank 1, and then tank 1 is plumbed in to Tank 2, Tank 2 is plumbed to tank 3 and tank Tank goes back to the original sump.

Tank 1, 2, 3 are all at the exact same height. So it's the same flow situation as going from a sump to a tank and back.

Unless you are running multiple Vectra L2's or a big Abyzz A200 or A400 as your return pump - a 1.5' or 2" pipe should handle the flow returning back to the sump.


Dave B

 

[BeanAnimal]

Even if you have the tanks at the same height on either side of the wall, with a pipe mounted between the two tanks - not going up and over, but straight thru the wall, the water will flow from the tank being filled to the tank the water is being pumped out of.

Pending the "Actual" flow rate from the sump tank to the display tank a 1.5" of 2" pipe will handle the flow of a smaller tank. As the water rises up in one tank gravity will naturally pull the water thru the pipe to raise the water level in the tank the water is being pumped out of.

I have run multiple tanks in series where the flow runs into tank 1, and then tank 1 is plumbed in to Tank 2, Tank 2 is plumbed to tank 3 and tank Tank goes back to the original sump.

Tank 1, 2, 3 are all at the exact same height. So it's the same flow situation as going from a sump to a tank and back.

Unless you are running multiple Vectra L2's or a big Abyzz A200 or A400 as your return pump - a 1.5' or 2" pipe should handle the flow returning back to the sump.


Dave B

The flow rate is still dictated by the difference in head height between the two pools. A common pipe between two tanks will allow the water to seek its own level (equilibrium) between the two tanks. The issue only issue is pipe size vs flow rate.

 

[niccumec]

Siphon flow rate is determined by the surface distance between the two pools.

Yes gravity still works on the shorter run, but shorter fall means lower velocity means less volume per time.

Very low velocity and a large pipe may not be able to easily clear air.

What is the distance between the water level in the overflow box and the surface of the water sump? What return pump?

I can set the sump at any distance below the water level in the overflow box, just seeking to raise it as high as possible without sacrificing any benefits of your silent Bean Animal performance. Nothing has been plumbed so I have ultimate flexibility. Distance from floor to bottom of Modular Marine 3600 overflow box is ~45" and the sump is a Synergy SK-60 (60x18x18). DT water level (Weir) to bottom of Overflow box ~7-3/4".

I have dual returns with a Sicce SDC 7 & 9. with flow rate ranges of 800-1900 and 1000-2500 respectively. I expect to flow most of the time at the low end totaling 1800 gph, except when running UV in "bacterial / high rate mode" where the Sicce 9 return will need to push ~2100 gph through the AquaUV (47-watt) which will be pushing the limits of that return pump, especially if my sump is way down on the floor.

 

[niccumec]

I found this siphon calculator in another thread by @JPM San Diego . Seems like this is what I should use to calculate max height of sump to ensure I have enough rate transferring to sump.

 

[KStatefan]

The flow rate is still dictated by the difference in head height between the two pools. A common pipe between two tanks will allow the water to seek its own level (equilibrium) between the two tanks. The issue only issue is pipe size vs flow rate.

I still think you should update your website so the calculator worked and images where there. It was the best tool to visualize this.

Hydrualics for the Aquarist | BeanAnimal's Reef

Ever wanted to know how much water a bulkhead can handle? This article helps you understand and apply basic physics to water flow in the aquarium.

beananimal.com

 

[BeanAnimal]

I keep meaning to get around to it.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I know that I do not want any horizontal runs in the siphon line

While long horizontal runs might slow things down a smidge, having a few elbows (and a horizontal pipe in between) will not cause any problems or appreciable difference in velocity.

 

[KStatefan]

I can set the sump at any distance below the water level in the overflow box, just seeking to raise it as high as possible without sacrificing any benefits of your silent Bean Animal performance. Nothing has been plumbed so I have ultimate flexibility. Distance from floor to bottom of Modular Marine 3600 overflow box is ~45" and the sump is a Synergy SK-60 (60x18x18). DT water level (Weir) to bottom of Overflow box ~7-3/4".

I have dual returns with a Sicce SDC 7 & 9. with flow rate ranges of 800-1900 and 1000-2500 respectively. I expect to flow most of the time at the low end totaling 1800 gph, except when running UV in "bacterial / high rate mode" where the Sicce 9 return will need to push ~2100 gph through the AquaUV (47-watt) which will be pushing the limits of that return pump, especially if my sump is way down on the floor.

In that image how much will the hight difference be? It looks like it could be plumbed very clean and would flow plenty.

I doubt you will get 2100 gph out of that pump going thru a UV.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I am building a new system with the sump in a room behind the DT. I would like the sump to be as high as possible to not have to mess with it on the floor and to reduce head pressure on the pumps. Is there a minimum distance I need for the siphon between the DT and sump? I am using a Modular Marine 3600 with 1.5" Bean Animal overflow design.

I know that I do not want any horizontal runs in the siphon line, but can I raise the sump as high as geometry will allow for the piping between the overflow and the sump? -or is there some magic amount of "fall" needed for silent Bean Animal overflow?

After reading through your subsequent posts, i have a question: is the reason you're asking the original question because you're worried about head loss? Because either of the return pumps you listed would be fine by itself (for a return only, not thru UV) even at 4-5 feet of head pressure. The majority of flow in a tank your size will come from powerheads/wavemakers.

Just something to think about. I may be completely off base about your reasons.

 

[carri10]

Hi all. On this point, I’m installing at 1000L tank with a fish room about 2 m below. Due to a redesign in the house set up, I now have to have the DT about 10m (30ft) horizontally and 2m (6feet) above the sump. The 10m of horizontal pipe would only have a vertical drop of 10cm (4”), before getting to sump room and dropping the remaining distance.
I didn’t think there would be any problems, as the flow (5 x DT volume per hour = 500l/hr or ~ 1250 gals/hr) would simply overflow DT through outlet and on into the sump. However, I didn’t factor in the siphon effect in a normal bean animal set up.
What does a true siphon achieve over a simple overflow flow? If it is just noise control, that fine, the sump is away from many living areas. If it is something else, I need education!
Thanks.

 

[KStatefan]

Hi all. On this point, I’m installing at 1000L tank with a fish room about 2 m below. Due to a redesign in the house set up, I now have to have the DT about 10m (30ft) horizontally and 2m (6feet) above the sump. The 10m of horizontal pipe would only have a vertical drop of 10cm (4”), before getting to sump room and dropping the remaining distance.
I didn’t think there would be any problems, as the flow (5 x DT volume per hour = 500l/hr or ~ 1250 gals/hr) would simply overflow DT through outlet and on into the sump. However, I didn’t factor in the siphon effect in a normal bean animal set up.
What does a true siphon achieve over a simple overflow flow? If it is just noise control, that fine, the sump is away from many living areas. If it is something else, I need education!
Thanks.

Silent & Fail-Safe Aquarium Overflow System | BeanAnimal's Reef

Build the world famous "Bean Animal" silent and fail-safe aquarium overflow system. No noise, no adjustment, no floods. A truly set and forget setup that makes the Durso and Stockman style of standpipes obsolete! Build your own today!

beananimal.com

 

[niccumec]

After reading through your subsequent posts, i have a question: is the reason you're asking the original question because you're worried about head loss? Because either of the return pumps you listed would be fine by itself (for a return only, not thru UV) even at 4-5 feet of head pressure. The majority of flow in a tank your size will come from powerheads/wavemakers.

Just something to think about. I may be completely off base about your reasons.

Yes, trying to minimize water head to maximize rate through pump. The UV only needs ~1,000 gph for parasite control (90,0000 µw/cm2), but has to run faster ~2,000 gph in “reef / bacterial” mode (45,000 µw/cm2). With 2” return plumbing, my calculated friction is 1.1’ through the UV and to DT. That plus water head of 2’ would put me at a theoretical pump output of 2,130 gph. Since I want the sump on a stand anyway, I was seeing how high I can raise it (reducing water head) and still get optimal siphon flow through the overflow.

I realize I do not “need” to circulate this much through the DT, but returning the UV’d water all back to DT instead of cycling in the sump is the recommended route.

I’m kind of wondering how many people truly run their UV’s in “reef” mode (30-45,000 µw/cm2). Sure does complicate the flow options!!!

 

[BeanAnimal]

UV flow rates and numbers are hooey if you ask me… every company has a different value and bulbs degrade over time as well.

The difference in flow rate for vertical head within 12-18 is minimal compared to frictional head losses due to plumbing constraints. Don’t overthink and instead build for easy of setup and maintenance.

 

[niccumec]

UV flow rates and numbers are hooey if you ask me… every company has a different value and bulbs degrade over time as well.

The difference in flow rate for vertical head within 12-18 is minimal compared to frictional head losses due to plumbing constraints. Don’t overthink and instead build for easy of setup and maintenance.

Good point on focusing on ease of setup and maintenance. Easy to get too caught up in the numbers.