SPS Keep STNing Need Help and Ideas

[Vaughn17]

I don't know if I would call people who run a zero/zero system irresponsible. This is a method that has been used to grow and color SPS for many years. It's not that there is really zero zero it is that the consumption of nutrients is balanced. This consumption also includes consumption by the corals. If there was really zero the corals would starve. That being said running zero zero system doesn't leave a lot of room for error. As it is a very delicate balancing act.

Yes, I get that the corals are consuming all the nutrients, which just happens to be enough to meet their needs. And that people have been successful with that method. The irresponsible part is stating that it's zero/zero.

There are so many threads with people (usually newcomers to the hobby) wanting to know why their acros are stn-ing when their nutrients levels are zero/zero. Of course, they could have pests, other water quality parameter problems, etc. but often their corals are starving. So, yes, it's irresponsible to show photos of your beautiful sps tank and state that your nutrients are zero/zero unless you explain why your coral are thriving (zeovit or some other low nutrient system supplements, etc.) and that zero/zero doesn't precisely mean no nutrients (nutrients in = nutrients out).

 

[aarbutina]

Agreed there too

 

[Kenfishy]

Hi I am not sure if this has been mentioned already but when you say your lights are dialed down, what do they max out at? I recently went through the same issue. My ai hds are only 6 inches from my water line in a 30 inch deep tank and I was bleaching all of my sps corals and starting getting tissue recession in my LPS after I added t5s. I dialed them all the way down to 45% blues and now my corals look great. I also ran low nutrients with slightly high kh. The combo of low nutrients high kh and high low is no good.

 

[aarbutina]

Hi I am not sure if this has been mentioned already but when you say your lights are dialed down, what do they max out at? I recently went through the same issue. My ai hds are only 6 inches from my water line in a 30 inch deep tank and I was bleaching all of my sps corals and starting getting tissue recession in my LPS after I added t5s. I dialed them all the way down to 45% blues and now my corals look great. I also ran low nutrients with slightly high kh. The combo of low nutrients high kh and high low is no good.

I am at a max intensity of 30% right now.

 

[Kenfishy]

I am at a max intensity of 30% right now.

Ok. Haha. Probably something else then.

 

[Mattrg02]

I'm going through this very same thing.

When I first started, I was a poor college kid with a 20g and a homemade led light. Cheap live rock and no tests aside from basics.

I fed cheap pellets and did water changes using reef crystals every now and then. I did splurge for an rodi unit.

My sps corals grew great. I had Sunset montipora taking over as well as Jedi mind trick. Both had amazing colors! An orange monti cap was out of control as well. Acroporas were forming into mini colonies.

I'd see plenty of rtn that would stop and the coral would regrow. Probably was due to my little time and money that I had available as I neared graduation. Algae was all over the place and would partially kill an acropora only to have the acropora come back strong once I freed it of algae.

Fast forward to the day I moved back home. Tank crash. Lost most acroporas. The montiporas survived as did the zoas and my clam.

I graduated, got married,and moved out. This time, the tank completely went. All corals died. My luck had run out.

I've rebooted several times, all with way nicer equipment and way more attention to detail. Carefully watching parameters and spending big money on salt and whatnot. Got me an mp10 and a protein skimmer and a hydra 26hd! Even started dosing nitrates.

Corals will look good for a week or two,
then the PE is gone for good and the colors fade. A few more weeks and I've got a total loss.

My last loss was due to Hurricane Hermine. Lost power and had no backup. Lost everything except my clown fish that I've had throughout thick and thin.

I'm on my third reboot. So far, so good! My sps frags are laying down their base and my zoas are giving babies. Hopefully I'm getting back into the swing? Can't nail down what changed to be seeing my corals make it this far, actually growing!

Main difference between back when I had success and today's failures was my laziness that probably was creating stability. Wasn't adding stuff nor upsetting the tank with frequent water changes. Probably a bit of luck as well.

 

[aarbutina]

Matt is does sound like thing are looking up for you. Did you change anything at all between the 2nd and 3rd reboot of you tank?

 

[danreefman]

Daily water changes 15-20% everyday. Make sure all perimeters are a match. I used regular chloramine filter on R/O D/I. Tank saw a difference when I was losing coral. Switched to chloramine monster. Tank is beautiful. No more extensive water changes. I think that a lot of problems has to do with crap they put in our water. I am a firm believer in if you want something done right do it yourself. Make your own water. Buy all the best filtration you can afford (r/o system.

We were eating diner the other night. I took one sip of water and said bring me a bottle. My wife flipped and said what the heck? I told her to try. Smelt and taste like mildew. Went home did a quick resurch. Sure enough what's headlining local news? Smell or taste something in your water? Don't be alarmed it will dissolve over a couple weeks. I noticed when my wife was showering one day heavy smell of mildew. Don't know if adding all the filters helped but corals started RTNing during smelly water time. Added filters right of way. Did 20% everyday for 2-3 weeks everything is happy as can be. All dead real Reef rock and dead sand. Tank is 3 months.

One time my friend called city and said water smells bad. Like rotten eggs. They said oops we added to much black water. Which is from the poo poo factory. They said we'll take it down a bit. Needless to say if you drink tap water? Your drinking poopoo!

 

[danreefman]

Population control. Put small doses in the water, so it kills you slowly. Fish and coral are just more sensitive than a human.

WATCH YOUR WATER SUPPLY!!

 

[aarbutina]

Your drinking poopoo

Its a bit nutty...

 

[aarbutina]

All jokes aside Dan I think that you are have a point. we can't let ourselves be at the mercy of the water company. While I don't think I am going to swing for the $300 chloramine monster, I did just change out my carbon block to the BRS 1micron Universal carbon block which is suppose to do a bang up job handling chlorine and chloramine. I may also consider adding a second carbon block and and second DI like cody mentioned in a previous post. 6 stages are better than 4. and the cost isn't that great.

 

[Mattrg02]

Matt is does sound like thing are looking up for you. Did you change anything at all between the 2nd and 3rd reboot of you tank?

I peroxided all the rocks and then rinsed them in fresh salt water before going back into the tank. The last failure wound up with a tank FULL of slimy grey white bacteria. No idea where that came form nor how it was surviving since I famine feed my tank. I did notice that my bottle of potassium nitrate solution had what looked like fuzzy white growths floating in it, so , may have contaminated the tank.

Second thing that I did was lower alkalinity of my salt by using HCL and then using a power head to blow off the excess c02 for pH stability.

I've also been using some carbon from time to time and dosing peroxide at night.

Matt

 

[SpiderWeb]

I have been having a bit of trouble with my SPS STN'ing recently. I can place a farg in the tank and it will look fine at first. Polys with be extended and things look happy. After about 2 weeks the polys will stop extending and retract and then the skin will start to peel at the tips. At first I thought it was my pellet reactor stripping all of the nitrate and phosphate out of my tank leaving practically zero nutrients. So I pulled the pellet reactor and initially things looked like they were starting to turn around. and then some of the acros started STN'ing again.

Here are the results from the lastest round of testing that I performed:

SG: 1.024 (I understand this is a tad on the low side but it shouldn't be killing SPS that said I am working on bringing it up).
Temp: 77.2oF
pH 8.2
Alk: 8.3 dkh (Hanna Checker)
Ca: 445 ppm (Hanna Checker)
Mg: 1270 ppm (Salifert)
Nitrate 4 ppm (Red Sea Pro)
Phosphate 0.00 ppm (Milwaukee low range)

Some additional information:

I have tested my RODI for chlorine and chloramines, both 0.
I am reading 1 ppm on my TDS meter on my RODI Unit and have ordered new media to fix that (will be swapped out tonight_
Results of ICP testing that was performed 2 weeks ago (nothing stands out to me, CA was a bit high due to an over dose and has since fallen with water changes and not dosing) (testing was performed by ICP-Analysis dot com)
Aluminum 0.11 ppm
Arsenic 0.01 ppm
Boron 2.44 ppm
Barium 0 .01 ppm
Beryllium 0 ppm
Bromine 87.9 ppm
Calcium 621.5 ppm
Cadmium 0 ppm
Cerium < 0.01 ppm
Chlorine 23683.82 ppm
Cobalt 41.28 ppm
Chromium 0.02 ppm
Copper 0 ppm
Iron 0 ppm
Gallium 0.95 ppm
Iodine 0.01 ppm
Potassium 452.25 ppm
Lanthanum 0.02 ppm
Lithium 0.62 ppm
Magnesium 1306.09 ppm
Manganese 0 ppm
Molybdenum 0.04 ppm
Sodium 9798.72 ppm
Nickel 0.06 ppm
Phosphorus 0.08 ppm
Lead < 0.01 ppm
Rubidium <0.01 ppm
Sulfur 332.51 ppm
Antimony 0 ppm
Selenium 0.01 ppm
Silicon <0.01 ppm
Tin 0.04 ppm
Strontium 6.83 ppm
Titanium 0 ppm
Thallium <0.01 ppm
Uranium 0.05 ppm
Vanadium 0.01 ppm
Tungsten 0 ppm
Zinc 0 ppm

Tank is a 90 gallon display that has been running since February, lite with 4 radion Gen 4 XR15 pros. My radions do sit fairly close to the waters surface (~5" but they are dialed down so I wouldn't think this should be a problem). Water movement is provided by 2 MP40 that alternate between reef crest and nutrient export. Rock work was moved from a previous tank that started to leak, but DSB is new for the most part (some of the old sand was mixed in to seed). Goes without saying there is also a skimmer.

Vortechs have been check to ensure there is no rust.
I haven't been running carbon, but I just started running it again today to see if there an unknown organic was causing issues.

I don't see any sign that this is an SPS pest. It really seems like a chemistry issue that I can't pinpoint. Any help that people can provide would be great. I would be happy to answer any additional questions.

I recently confirmed that my Milwaukee low range phosphate meter can detect phosphate level down to about 0.05 ppm. So while it does read zero with my tank water is it possible that it could be any value less than 0.05 ppm.

I have tried dosing some phosphate over the past couple of days (using Seachem's Flourish Phosphorus) and so far I still can't detect any phosphate in the tank nor have I seen a response in the SPS. I did however loss a milli to RTN overnight last night. This was one of my frags that actually was still looking like i wasn't effected (which I do have a couple). It was fine before lights out and this morning it was totally peeling and almost completely gone. I had up the dose of phosphate to achieve a level of 0.03 ppm (2.4 mL of Flourish). I don't think that should cause this reaction but I suppose it could. I don't have any other explanations of such a rapid decline.

As an additional not my clams do not seem to be impacted, in fact they seem to be happy as clams. Nor are my Zoas. I would think it this was some sort of toxin or heavy metal issue that at least you would see some issues with the clams.

While i don't see pests, is it possible that there is a pathogen that could be causing issues?

While I work towards and answer I think I am going to set up a secondary (isolated frag tank) to move everything that isn't solidly in place out and see if they start to recover in a different system.

Happy to answer any question you may have. I am really scratching my head on this one.

I

I have been having a bit of trouble with my SPS STN'ing recently. I can place a farg in the tank and it will look fine at first. Polys with be extended and things look happy. After about 2 weeks the polys will stop extending and retract and then the skin will start to peel at the tips. At first I thought it was my pellet reactor stripping all of the nitrate and phosphate out of my tank leaving practically zero nutrients. So I pulled the pellet reactor and initially things looked like they were starting to turn around. and then some of the acros started STN'ing again.

Here are the results from the lastest round of testing that I performed:

SG: 1.024 (I understand this is a tad on the low side but it shouldn't be killing SPS that said I am working on bringing it up).
Temp: 77.2oF
pH 8.2
Alk: 8.3 dkh (Hanna Checker)
Ca: 445 ppm (Hanna Checker)
Mg: 1270 ppm (Salifert)
Nitrate 4 ppm (Red Sea Pro)
Phosphate 0.00 ppm (Milwaukee low range)

Some additional information:

I have tested my RODI for chlorine and chloramines, both 0.
I am reading 1 ppm on my TDS meter on my RODI Unit and have ordered new media to fix that (will be swapped out tonight_
Results of ICP testing that was performed 2 weeks ago (nothing stands out to me, CA was a bit high due to an over dose and has since fallen with water changes and not dosing) (testing was performed by ICP-Analysis dot com)
Aluminum 0.11 ppm
Arsenic 0.01 ppm
Boron 2.44 ppm
Barium 0 .01 ppm
Beryllium 0 ppm
Bromine 87.9 ppm
Calcium 621.5 ppm
Cadmium 0 ppm
Cerium < 0.01 ppm
Chlorine 23683.82 ppm
Cobalt 41.28 ppm
Chromium 0.02 ppm
Copper 0 ppm
Iron 0 ppm
Gallium 0.95 ppm
Iodine 0.01 ppm
Potassium 452.25 ppm
Lanthanum 0.02 ppm
Lithium 0.62 ppm
Magnesium 1306.09 ppm
Manganese 0 ppm
Molybdenum 0.04 ppm
Sodium 9798.72 ppm
Nickel 0.06 ppm
Phosphorus 0.08 ppm
Lead < 0.01 ppm
Rubidium <0.01 ppm
Sulfur 332.51 ppm
Antimony 0 ppm
Selenium 0.01 ppm
Silicon <0.01 ppm
Tin 0.04 ppm
Strontium 6.83 ppm
Titanium 0 ppm
Thallium <0.01 ppm
Uranium 0.05 ppm
Vanadium 0.01 ppm
Tungsten 0 ppm
Zinc 0 ppm

Tank is a 90 gallon display that has been running since February, lite with 4 radion Gen 4 XR15 pros. My radions do sit fairly close to the waters surface (~5" but they are dialed down so I wouldn't think this should be a problem). Water movement is provided by 2 MP40 that alternate between reef crest and nutrient export. Rock work was moved from a previous tank that started to leak, but DSB is new for the most part (some of the old sand was mixed in to seed). Goes without saying there is also a skimmer.

Vortechs have been check to ensure there is no rust.
I haven't been running carbon, but I just started running it again today to see if there an unknown organic was causing issues.

I don't see any sign that this is an SPS pest. It really seems like a chemistry issue that I can't pinpoint. Any help that people can provide would be great. I would be happy to answer any additional questions.

I recently confirmed that my Milwaukee low range phosphate meter can detect phosphate level down to about 0.05 ppm. So while it does read zero with my tank water is it possible that it could be any value less than 0.05 ppm.

I have tried dosing some phosphate over the past couple of days (using Seachem's Flourish Phosphorus) and so far I still can't detect any phosphate in the tank nor have I seen a response in the SPS. I did however loss a milli to RTN overnight last night. This was one of my frags that actually was still looking like i wasn't effected (which I do have a couple). It was fine before lights out and this morning it was totally peeling and almost completely gone. I had up the dose of phosphate to achieve a level of 0.03 ppm (2.4 mL of Flourish). I don't think that should cause this reaction but I suppose it could. I don't have any other explanations of such a rapid decline.

As an additional not my clams do not seem to be impacted, in fact they seem to be happy as clams. Nor are my Zoas. I would think it this was some sort of toxin or heavy metal issue that at least you would see some issues with the clams.

While i don't see pests, is it possible that there is a pathogen that could be causing issues?

While I work towards and answer I think I am going to set up a secondary (isolated frag tank) to move everything that isn't solidly in place out and see if they start to recover in a different system.

Happy to answer any question you may have. I am really scratching my head on this one.

I agree

I have been having a bit of trouble with my SPS STN'ing recently. I can place a farg in the tank and it will look fine at first. Polys with be extended and things look happy. After about 2 weeks the polys will stop extending and retract and then the skin will start to peel at the tips. At first I thought it was my pellet reactor stripping all of the nitrate and phosphate out of my tank leaving practically zero nutrients. So I pulled the pellet reactor and initially things looked like they were starting to turn around. and then some of the acros started STN'ing again.

Here are the results from the lastest round of testing that I performed:

SG: 1.024 (I understand this is a tad on the low side but it shouldn't be killing SPS that said I am working on bringing it up).
Temp: 77.2oF
pH 8.2
Alk: 8.3 dkh (Hanna Checker)
Ca: 445 ppm (Hanna Checker)
Mg: 1270 ppm (Salifert)
Nitrate 4 ppm (Red Sea Pro)
Phosphate 0.00 ppm (Milwaukee low range)

Some additional information:

I have tested my RODI for chlorine and chloramines, both 0.
I am reading 1 ppm on my TDS meter on my RODI Unit and have ordered new media to fix that (will be swapped out tonight_
Results of ICP testing that was performed 2 weeks ago (nothing stands out to me, CA was a bit high due to an over dose and has since fallen with water changes and not dosing) (testing was performed by ICP-Analysis dot com)
Aluminum 0.11 ppm
Arsenic 0.01 ppm
Boron 2.44 ppm
Barium 0 .01 ppm
Beryllium 0 ppm
Bromine 87.9 ppm
Calcium 621.5 ppm
Cadmium 0 ppm
Cerium < 0.01 ppm
Chlorine 23683.82 ppm
Cobalt 41.28 ppm
Chromium 0.02 ppm
Copper 0 ppm
Iron 0 ppm
Gallium 0.95 ppm
Iodine 0.01 ppm
Potassium 452.25 ppm
Lanthanum 0.02 ppm
Lithium 0.62 ppm
Magnesium 1306.09 ppm
Manganese 0 ppm
Molybdenum 0.04 ppm
Sodium 9798.72 ppm
Nickel 0.06 ppm
Phosphorus 0.08 ppm
Lead < 0.01 ppm
Rubidium <0.01 ppm
Sulfur 332.51 ppm
Antimony 0 ppm
Selenium 0.01 ppm
Silicon <0.01 ppm
Tin 0.04 ppm
Strontium 6.83 ppm
Titanium 0 ppm
Thallium <0.01 ppm
Uranium 0.05 ppm
Vanadium 0.01 ppm
Tungsten 0 ppm
Zinc 0 ppm

Tank is a 90 gallon display that has been running since February, lite with 4 radion Gen 4 XR15 pros. My radions do sit fairly close to the waters surface (~5" but they are dialed down so I wouldn't think this should be a problem). Water movement is provided by 2 MP40 that alternate between reef crest and nutrient export. Rock work was moved from a previous tank that started to leak, but DSB is new for the most part (some of the old sand was mixed in to seed). Goes without saying there is also a skimmer.

Vortechs have been check to ensure there is no rust.
I haven't been running carbon, but I just started running it again today to see if there an unknown organic was causing issues.

I don't see any sign that this is an SPS pest. It really seems like a chemistry issue that I can't pinpoint. Any help that people can provide would be great. I would be happy to answer any additional questions.

I recently confirmed that my Milwaukee low range phosphate meter can detect phosphate level down to about 0.05 ppm. So while it does read zero with my tank water is it possible that it could be any value less than 0.05 ppm.

I have tried dosing some phosphate over the past couple of days (using Seachem's Flourish Phosphorus) and so far I still can't detect any phosphate in the tank nor have I seen a response in the SPS. I did however loss a milli to RTN overnight last night. This was one of my frags that actually was still looking like i wasn't effected (which I do have a couple). It was fine before lights out and this morning it was totally peeling and almost completely gone. I had up the dose of phosphate to achieve a level of 0.03 ppm (2.4 mL of Flourish). I don't think that should cause this reaction but I suppose it could. I don't have any other explanations of such a rapid decline.

As an additional not my clams do not seem to be impacted, in fact they seem to be happy as clams. Nor are my Zoas. I would think it this was some sort of toxin or heavy metal issue that at least you would see some issues with the clams.

While i don't see pests, is it possible that there is a pathogen that could be causing issues?

While I work towards and answer I think I am going to set up a secondary (isolated frag tank) to move everything that isn't solidly in place out and see if they start to recover in a different system.

Happy to answer any question you may have. I am really scratching my head on this one.

I truly believe your tank is not mature for SPS quite yet. It took me over a year and bag full of dead SPS to rap my head around what that really meant! One lesson I learned from my lfs owner was let your tank tell you what it needs not the other way around!

 

[Yuen]

Jus curious do you have oversized protein skimmer? My birdnest n monti is growing nut but none of acro survive long... Even my smooth skin deep water acro can suddenly lost skin. A lot people recommend water change , but I always see things turn worst after water change ..

 

[Mattrg02]

Jus curious do you have oversized protein skimmer? My birdnest n monti is growing nut but none of acro survive long... Even my smooth skin deep water acro can suddenly lost skin. A lot people recommend water change , but I always see things turn worst after water change ..

Thats another change I remember. I was running a skimmer most of the time that I had trouble. No more skimmer, I just do small water changes each week now.

 

[aarbutina]

Jus curious do you have oversized protein skimmer? My birdnest n monti is growing nut but none of acro survive long... Even my smooth skin deep water acro can suddenly lost skin. A lot people recommend water change , but I always see things turn worst after water change ..

I am running a Skimz Monzter SM161. According to BRS they make the following recomendations:

• Heavy Bioload (Most Common) - 120 gallons
• Medium Bioload - 150 gallons
• Light Bioload - 200 gallons

I guess with water changes it really matters what you are dumping in and how well it is matched to you current water.

 

[aarbutina]

Filling the frag tank. Using 67% freshly made (with new RODI water which is at zero TDS) and 33% tank DT water. Going my to pull all the frags that are solidly in place and drop them in here. And then try to take a clipping or two of the ones that are mounted and see if they can recover outside of the DT.

 

[CoralWealth]

Filling the frag tank. Using 67% freshly made (with new RODI water which is at zero TDS) and 33% tank DT water. Going my to pull all the frags that are solidly in place and drop them in here. And then try to take a clipping or two of the ones that are mounted and see if they can recover outside of the DT.

Good idea. Make sure the alk, calc and etc are stable with the tank or that will be another shock to the corals. Same light?

 

[aarbutina]

Yup indeed. Lighting is LED but a different brand. I will march the par though

 

[CoralWealth]

Yup indeed. Lighting is LED but a different brand. I will march the par though

Hope it works out, if you tell a difference pretty fast then you can probably narrow it down to the TDS being off 0 with the water in the main tank.