SPS not thriving in Dead Rock system vs Live Rock system .

[JaimeAdams]

There is a reason some of the best reefers in the world had trouble with dry rock. If Sanjay Joshi, Mike Paletta, and their counterparts in Europe all couldn't grow acros (well montis in sanjays case) before 18-24 months in a tank with dry rock, that's nothing to brush aside.

Whats odd is that plenty of people who are far less capable than them have had success with dry rock or even no rock systems. The "it's just about stability" argument as far as testable parameters goes out the window entirely because obviously they kept stable parameters in their tanks. Any user controlled aspect of the tank as far as what a reefkeeper would normally do to grow corals quickly goes out the window really, because it's not like normal hobbyists who've had success were using some secret tactic that some of the best reefers in the world don't know or didn't try.

So you cant say dry rock vs live rock doesn't matter, because we have no idea. That's the truth. Some people have problems, some dont.

I wouldn't say that they are "the best reefers in the world", don't get me wrong, I personally know Mike and Sanjay, fine guys and all and I am not down grading their skill level or experience, but there are many people as skilled and more skilled than the people you mention, just not as famous in the hobby. How do you know Mike, Sanjay, David and all the others keep perfect stability in their tanks? These guys have lives just like every body and if you think Mikes numbers have gone out of swing from time to time I think that you are mistaken. Still stability is extremely important for an SPS tank.

My little tank at work I am sitting right in front of the thing 40+ hours a week. I'm sure that it gets more attention than the majority of tanks out there. I know there are other people that spend a great deal of time with their tanks as well.

I totally agree that we do not know if it is dry rock vs live rock or what the factors are. There is proof that people have been very successful using dry bleached rock while other have not been. That is the only proof that we have.

 

[Fourstars]

"I respect other people opinion/experience.....but I think that this kind of statement, that you'll only have success doing this or that....this way or that way....aren't correct and didn't help at all......"

So you're implying You are correct? I think This is an pretty open minded discussion. Nice tank by the way.

 

[BigJohnny]

I wouldn't say that they are "the best reefers in the world", don't get me wrong, I personally know Mike and Sanjay, fine guys and all and I am not down grading their skill level or experience, but there are many people as skilled and more skilled than the people you mention, just not as famous in the hobby. How do you know Mike, Sanjay, David and all the others keep perfect stability in their tanks? These guys have lives just like every body and if you think Mikes numbers have gone out of swing from time to time I think that you are mistaken. Still stability is extremely important for an SPS tank.

My little tank at work I am sitting right in front of the thing 40+ hours a week. I'm sure that it gets more attention than the majority of tanks out there. I know there are other people that spend a great deal of time with their tanks as well.

I totally agree that we do not know if it is dry rock vs live rock or what the factors are. There is proof that people have been very successful using dry bleached rock while other have not been. That is the only proof that we have.

In the future, please only quote me with things I actually said. I said "some of the best reefers in the world", I never said they were THE best reefers in the world. As far as keeping perfect stability, again I never said perfect stability, but I did say that they kept everything stable. How do i know this? I don't. I took their word for it,and also judged by the fact that they consistently been able to grow coral packed systems over the last 10 years. Why would they not be able to keep things stable ENOUGH to grow corals all of sudden? Are you implying that was the issue that Mike and Sanjay and David and others had in the UK with dry rock? If not, then why even bring that up?

I am also not sure what you sitting in front of your tank for 40+ hours a week has to do with anything.

 

[jda]

I would argue that Copps might be the best reefer in the world, not that anybody could ever settle on a single one, but he is on the short list, IMO. He started his new monster tank with dry rock, knew about the issues, had a plan for them and waited out his time. He used a lot of live rock as well, but still needed a deal with the issues from the dry rock. The difference in his tank is that he embraced what was coming instead of explaining it away or making excuses - IMO, this allowed him to take a better approach towards mitigation.

 

[BigJohnny]

I would argue that Copps might be the best reefer in the world, not that anybody could ever settle on a single one, but he is on the short list, IMO. He started his new monster tank with dry rock, knew about the issues, had a plan for them and waited out his time. He used a lot of live rock as well, but still needed a deal with the issues from the dry rock. The difference in his tank is that he embraced what was coming instead of explaining it away or making excuses - IMO, this allowed him to take a better approach towards mitigation.

Definitely was not trying to start a debate on best reefers in the world lol, forgive me.

Also, I don't think that many people have growth problems using dry rock and live rock together like Copps did. Most people that complain of issues are using dry rock only.

 

[shred5]

Could be, but some people have success with the same rock that other people don't, from the same source, during the same time period. Phosphate aside (not the dry rock issue I was referring to) there could be a lot more too it than that.

That why I said it could be variable.. There might still be some good rock and some of it might be bad. Water can run through the ground in one spot and not another. You know these mines may only have so much room and they could be starting to have a hard time hitting good rock or they are near the bottom or getting close to the sides. These are ancient reefs they are mining and it may have only been so big. Reefs can only go so deep. Maybe they ran out in that spot and moved to another and it aint as good.

 

[BigJohnny]

That why I said it could be variable.. There might still be some good rock and some of it might be bad. Water can run through the ground in one spot and not another. You know these mines may only have so much room and they could be starting to have a hard time hitting good rock or they are near the bottom or getting close to the sides. These are ancient reefs they are mining and it may have only been so big. Reefs can only go so deep. Maybe they ran out in that spot and moved to another and it aint as good.

Yea who knows is the take away lol.

 

[ihavecrabs]

I'm using harvested pukani rock that was dead and dry when I purchased it. I had the luxury of time and literally had this rock for 3 months in tap water. Bleached bath and dried. Rinsed and dried. And then had 3 months in RODI and saltwater with ammonia and bacteria added.

I had the luxury of time since I was building a fish room and built in wall tank.

I currently have 6 frags of acropora in the tank on a frag rack doing very well after coming out of quarantine. More will be on their way soon.

With my anecdotal experience, I would say above the standard parameters, getting the bacteria time to settle and take hold has probably been one major factor.

I'm interested to learn more from others that have used mined or manufactured rock and having issues. Maybe icp testing or the like may give us a hint into what is going on.

 

[dricc]

I started this with sansibar (not the most porous dead rocks) from my previous system.
I did a bath with acid, rinsed them and did another bath with clorine....

As dead as can be, August 2016:

Cicled for a month with Microbacter and Special Blend and, after a month, in October/2016 the first group of sps (yongei, mileporas pink and green, plana purple, austera rose, tortuosa blue oregon and blue green, turaki, abrolhosenesis) was glued to still white rocks:
This is from November/2016 one month after the first sps arrived.

yongei, in October, in the that that arrived:

In November:

In December:

This is from 6 months after, in April/2017.........It's possible to see the yongei on the middle/left:

October/2017....1 year after the frags arrived....No losts untill now.

And this is from the last week, 1 year and 5 months since the beggining:

My point is:

Is it possible to start a tank with dry/dead rock and have success with sps?
For sure!
Do you need to wait 1....2 years to have some sort of success?
i don't think so......

I respect other people opinion/experience.....but I think that this kind of statement, that you'll only have success doing this or that....this way or that way....aren't correct and didn't help at all......

Beautiful tank.

 

[JaimeAdams]

In the future, please only quote me with things I actually said. I said "some of the best reefers in the world", I never said they were THE best reefers in the world. .

Ok, I'm sorry "some of the best reefers in the world", not simply "the best reefers in the world", but that wasn't to imply that these folks have not put in their time and have been successful for the most part, because that certainly is true, however if you go over to their houses and check out their tanks in person you will see those dead skeletons that the rest of us have too.

As far as keeping perfect stability, again I never said perfect stability, but I did say that they kept everything stable. How do i know this? I don't. I took their word for it,and also judged by the fact that they consistently been able to grow coral packed systems over the last 10 years. Why would they not be able to keep things stable ENOUGH to grow corals all of sudden? Are you implying that was the issue that Mike and Sanjay and David and others had in the UK with dry rock? If not, then why even bring that up?

I meant to imply that every person wether it is Julian Sprung or Joe down the street has had their levels get out of whack from time to time. It happens. I do mean to say that using dry rock and coming to the conclusion that that sole reason is the smoking gun of why "some of the best reefers in the world" can't grow Acropora in a system that has a plethora of other variable going on is an interesting hypothesis but nothing more. I find the topic interesting but it is PROVEN by the scientific method to not be the sole reason. It could be contributing reason, but to be PROVEN it needs to happen or not happen 100% of the time, every time. That is scientific proof. The use of dry rock equating to not being able to grow Acropora in a new system has been disproven by the Scientific Method to not be the sole reason why these folks have failed to grow Acropora in a new system.

I am also not sure what you sitting in front of your tank for 40+ hours a week has to do with anything.

That was to say that Mike and Sanjay and others have jobs and lives, my job is to sit in front of a tank all day 6 days a week. If something is going wrong I will most likely notice it because of the amount of time I am sitting there looking at it. While mike is away for business he isn't looking at his tank every 60 seconds throughout his day like I am. I am saying that possibly my success is partly because of how often I am in close viewing of my tank. I can tell you my tank at home that I only see twice a day is in WWWAAAAAYYYY worse shape than the tank that I sit 6 feet away from all day. The other people in this thread and elsewhere that started with dry rock and had success could possibly be spending a ton of time with their tank as well. That could be as much proof of why these tanks are doing fine while others have not done well just as much as the theory that it is the rock.

The point is there is no PROOF and I don't think Mike or Sanjay ever came out and said that it was the only reason why. In the little article it is said to be a theory, nothing more. These guys have a lifetime of experience and are respected in the industry, but just because Mike says that he and his buddies have a theory on why something is happening doesn't mean the rest of us should blindly follow it without doing any of our own research and looking at our own experiences and experiences of folks around us. It's great to be able to get the opinions of experienced reef keepers, but it is still on us as individuals to do our own due diligence.

 

[Alex Costa]

"I respect other people opinion/experience.....but I think that this kind of statement, that you'll only have success doing this or that....this way or that way....aren't correct and didn't help at all......"

So you're implying You are correct? I think This is an pretty open minded discussion. Nice tank by the way.

No....I'm not implying that I'm correct.
Sorry if it sounded that way.....maybe it's because english isn't my mother language.


IMO there's no recipes in reefkeeping.
I think that are a lot of ways to reach success (and the success itself depends on the point of view of every person), and put the blame of an unsuccessfull reef in the use of dry rock sounds a little strange to me, who always use them.

Best regards.

Alex

 

[rockskimmerflow]

There is a reason some of the best reefers in the world had trouble with dry rock. If Sanjay Joshi, Mike Paletta, and their counterparts in Europe all couldn't grow acros (well montis in sanjays case) before 18-24 months in a tank with dry rock, that's nothing to brush aside.

Whats odd is that plenty of people who are far less capable than them have had success with dry rock or even no rock systems. The "it's just about stability" argument as far as testable parameters goes out the window entirely because obviously they kept stable parameters in their tanks. Any user controlled aspect of the tank as far as what a reefkeeper would normally do to grow corals quickly goes out the window really, because it's not like normal hobbyists who've had success were using some secret tactic that some of the best reefers in the world don't know or didn't try.

So you cant say dry rock vs live rock doesn't matter, because we have no idea. That's the truth. Some people have problems, some dont.

just had to lol at the one... 'obviously they kept parameters stable' Strong. So maybe they had toxicity from their live rock? Did they do a Triton test? To me that's not a dry/live issue that's a leaching a poison vs not leaching a poison issue. The whole idea of maligning dry rock because a couple well known hobby personalities had issues with certain varieties of hard corals when they tried it is laughable to me. But that's just my opinion. I'm sure there's toxic rock out there, but I've used BRS eco reef saver, real reef, dry old natural liverock, pukani, tonga branch, you name it - and I've never had those kinds of issues. I may have avoided having anything toxic leaching, but I've never once seeded a tank with a bottle of bacteria when cycling and I have had stony coral growing in short order in those very same tanks.

 

[Nburg's Reef]

If any of you are chronic thinkers... to a detriment, then take a step back and stop thinking so much. More people had SPS success a decade ago with a few simple basic differences than today. Live rock, not using LED lights and not chasing parameter or nutrient levels. There were no posts about alk swings, nutrient levels (to a degree), parameter swings, etc... just tanks that grew SPS pretty well. The people who are exceptional SPS growers still do things like this. Even though the details can get clouded by man's desire to understand the minutia, this should be easy to understand at a macro level.

This is kinda how I run my tank. I look at equipment and methods that stood the test of time so to speak. If things that were new or standard practice in 2007 are still being used today, then I think I can trust their use. Set things up smart and limit the sources of error. Back from a time when K.I.S.S. was standard.

I only dose 2 part, do weekly water changes because whenever I stop, things get weird even tho my parameters seem fine, and try not to change too much at once. The more hands off I am the better things tend to go.

To chime in, I did replace some suspect rock with some of the Caribsea Shapes man made rock and I have been pretty happy with it. Granted there was still good LR in the system. (I had some rock I got from someone tearing down a tank that starting sprouting some nasty stuff, so I threw it out.)

 

[BigJohnny]

Ok, I'm sorry "some of the best reefers in the world", not simply "the best reefers in the world", but that wasn't to imply that these folks have not put in their time and have been successful for the most part, because that certainly is true, however if you go over to their houses and check out their tanks in person you will see those dead skeletons that the rest of us have too.



I meant to imply that every person wether it is Julian Sprung or Joe down the street has had their levels get out of whack from time to time. It happens. I do mean to say that using dry rock and coming to the conclusion that that sole reason is the smoking gun of why "some of the best reefers in the world" can't grow Acropora in a system that has a plethora of other variable going on is an interesting hypothesis but nothing more. I find the topic interesting but it is PROVEN by the scientific method to not be the sole reason. It could be contributing reason, but to be PROVEN it needs to happen or not happen 100% of the time, every time. That is scientific proof. The use of dry rock equating to not being able to grow Acropora in a new system has been disproven by the Scientific Method to not be the sole reason why these folks have failed to grow Acropora in a new system.



That was to say that Mike and Sanjay and others have jobs and lives, my job is to sit in front of a tank all day 6 days a week. If something is going wrong I will most likely notice it because of the amount of time I am sitting there looking at it. While mike is away for business he isn't looking at his tank every 60 seconds throughout his day like I am. I am saying that possibly my success is partly because of how often I am in close viewing of my tank. I can tell you my tank at home that I only see twice a day is in WWWAAAAAYYYY worse shape than the tank that I sit 6 feet away from all day. The other people in this thread and elsewhere that started with dry rock and had success could possibly be spending a ton of time with their tank as well. That could be as much proof of why these tanks are doing fine while others have not done well just as much as the theory that it is the rock.

The point is there is no PROOF and I don't think Mike or Sanjay ever came out and said that it was the only reason why. In the little article it is said to be a theory, nothing more. These guys have a lifetime of experience and are respected in the industry, but just because Mike says that he and his buddies have a theory on why something is happening doesn't mean the rest of us should blindly follow it without doing any of our own research and looking at our own experiences and experiences of folks around us. It's great to be able to get the opinions of experienced reef keepers, but it is still on us as individuals to do our own due diligence.

Wow im sorry bud but your post is way too long for me to want to comb through all that and respond piece by piece. I read about 75% of it then had to move on. Nothing personal, I'm just not interested in debating any of that further. I think we can both agree on one thing, we don't know why some people struggle so much with dry rock and others don't.

I have a rule here on Reef2reef and thats if I start going back and forth with someone and it gets more and more complex/longer posts, I end it. Its just not something that ever works out well on forums, not to mention the time and effort required. I am even frustrated right now as im typing all of this on my stupid phone. Oh look, one of my blue star leopard wrasses has a bacterial infection...........great, g2g lol

Take it easy

 

[BigJohnny]

just had to lol at the one... 'obviously they kept parameters stable' Strong. So maybe they had toxicity from their live rock? Did they do a Triton test? To me that's not a dry/live issue that's a leaching a poison vs not leaching a poison issue. The whole idea of maligning dry rock because a couple well known hobby personalities had issues with certain varieties of hard corals when they tried it is laughable to me. But that's just my opinion. I'm sure there's toxic rock out there, but I've used BRS eco reef saver, real reef, dry old natural liverock, pukani, tonga branch, you name it - and I've never had those kinds of issues. I may have avoided having anything toxic leaching, but I've never once seeded a tank with a bottle of bacteria when cycling and I have had stony coral growing in short order in those very same tanks.

The only thing I'm going to say to you is this:

I was only using those people as examples of how it's not just about the skill of the reefkeeper in determining whether or not someone is successful with dry rock. There are plenty of people everywhere who also have had trouble. I wasn't saying that because they did that's proof dry rock causes problems, not at all. Maybe read it again.

 

[Sallstrom]

We have started up two large tanks at work using dry live rock. First one with rocks from Aquadeco and the other one with Marco Rocks. We regulary send in ICP tests to Triton lab and the only thing thats has come out of those rocks that's unwanted and possible to test was phosphate. And since we knew that would probably happen we were ready for it and treated the tank until we had the level of phosphate we wanted.
In the tank in my build tread we put in some Acroporas after 3 weeks and they are still alive after 4 years.
So sometimes it works fine

/ David

 

[jda]

It works fine if you have the correct expectations and a plan. The folks who just buy dry rock because it is cheap and does not have pests are the ones who usually fight algae and then end up getting all of the pests anyway.

Know what you are up against, have a plan and have some patience. When you figure all of this out, GFO, LC, time, etc. makes dry rock a lot more expensive. I believe that if more people knew this up-front, then they would have made different choices... but the BRS Video does not cover the indirect costs.

 

[Volcmreefer]

I got pukani rock from BRS and did an acid bath as well as the tub for 3 weeks dosing lanthanum chloride. Upon placing in the reef tank and cycling I found out that the rocks were, ans still are, loaded with phosphates, leaching into the water. Despite my Hanna tester saying that phosphates are low in the tank. First Dinos, now hair algae. Running GFO/carbon and UV on the tank. I am hoping this subsides soon. Any tips on getting phosphates out of the rock while in the reef tank? Lanthanum Chloride? NoPox? Thanks,

 

[shred5]

I got pukani rock from BRS and did an acid bath as well as the tub for 3 weeks dosing lanthanum chloride. Upon placing in the reef tank and cycling I found out that the rocks were, ans still are, loaded with phosphates, leaching into the water. Despite my Hanna tester saying that phosphates are low in the tank. First Dinos, now hair algae. Running GFO/carbon and UV on the tank. I am hoping this subsides soon. Any tips on getting phosphates out of the rock while in the reef tank? Lanthanum Chloride? NoPox? Thanks,

Yea it could be reading low because the algae was using the phosphates as fast as they are released.

As far as getting it to release just keep using a phosphate remover and it will stop leaching once it is all released.

My first rock I just let it sit for a month in saltwater with circulation and a heater. I also added bacteria and it was about a month and it was fine. Most others I did the same way.

The last batch I did the same and after a month moved it to the tank and all hell broke loose. Since I did it this way a few times I figured a month was enough. I then started using gfo and polyfilters and 6 months later it was still releasing so I pulled the rock.
I got sick of waiting so I ordered live rock from Premium Aquatics and threw the rock away.. Eventually it would have stopped but what 8 months years who knows.
You can remove the algae which can speed things up too.
You just have to wait it out.

 

[shred5]

By the way this is a picture of my first reef done with dead rock.. It is only picture I could find and actually had to do a google search... This is from early 2008 and probably 5 to 6 months in.. This picture is of the left side which was softies and all sps were on the right side. Only one superman moni in the pic but you can see no algae and the tank looks fine. By the way I still have some of those corals. I wish I had pics of how the last one went.