SPS not thriving in Dead Rock system vs Live Rock system .

[Luno]

I'm going to be setting up a 300g deep deminson. Will 50lbs of live rock make much of a difference? Not sure I could fit much more than that. May be able to do a 150gal Rubbermaid

To be honest man I'd literally do 1 live rock if it was me go over it with a fine tooth comb but I'm a bit wierd like that. Imo and this is just my opinion, you don't need much it will eventually spread, like I said I literally use half a cup of live sand from a previous tank to kick start a whole new sandbed. I'm building a 300g currently and this is how I will be starting it off.
- dead rock and dead sand
- refugium with dead rock and rubble
- cycle using fresh prawns (expecting a 2 month cycle, lights off for first month, short lighting period second month ramping up to full lighting period)
- add sea grass, mangrove and cheato to refugium, as well as a couple pieces of live rubble and half cup of live sand to display.
- run tank for 1 more month
- begin to add first few fish (3 months in)
- 4 months in add all sps frags
- 4 months in add 1 fish per week till fully stocked

 

[AtlCPA]

Ok, good to know. Thanks

 

[Bmasculine]

Here’s my experience, 1st tank was 70 gal with live rock purchased from lfs, never had any problem but it was only lps. 2nd tank was a 185 gal I set up for sps with dry rock and tore it down after a year and half of constantly battling phosphates that I could never get under 1 ppm. Needless to say sps never took off in that tank, it’s now sitting in my garage. 3rd tank is a 20x20x30 bare bottom with artificial caribsea rock a 10 gal sump that is 90% Refugium that has no sand only marinepure and chaeto, tank has been running 5 months, no algae no phosphate leaching I have to overfeed and dose nitrates to keep nutrients where they should be. I put some sps in about a month ago and they’re looking great so far, I guess time will tell. But this seems like the way to go for me.

 

[Fourstars]

I would build the base with dry. Then get some good live rock from tampa bay or other good source to top off the structure. you need to put the new rock under light in tank right away so you get little die off as possible.

 

[jda]

The TBS rock is the easiest way to get hitchhikers since it comes in water.

Order a few boxes of boat rock from the Pacific. Cure it. Make your structures with it quickly and then fill the tank with water. It is cheap and ready to support life instantly once it is cured. The curing process will kill any nasty stuff on the rock - only the bacteria and coralline survive this.

 

[Bpb]

Where exactly do you get pacific boat rock from?

 

[jda]

Blue Zoo has it. Livestockusa.org usually has it.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

I know we've been using boat rock, basically live rock that's shipped very slowly and has experienced massive die-off, for years in the hobby. Does boat rock, for lack of a better term, have what SPS need? It seems that the problem with starting with dry rock is that it lacks diversity. Videos like BRS's on dry rock basically claim that boat rock is as good as dead rock. What is everyone's thoughts on this? Does any old live rock from any old vendor, even rock that obviously was boat rock, contain the biodiversity SPS need?

What do you all think?

 

[Bmasculine]

I guess I don’t understand the biodiversity that acros need from live rock. My tank runs fine without a single piece of live rock or sand. My acros look good although growth is slow but attribute that to the fact my nutrients are so low. Do I need to add “live rock” for faster growth?

 

[jda]

The rock needs to be porous, free of phosphate and able to host both anoxic and oxic bacterial. If the the rock is porous and free of phosphate, then the microfauna can populate the rock and become beneficial. If the rock is porous to the core, then anoxic bacteria can live there to denitrify.

Dense rock is not as good. Rock bound with phosphate is not as good. Rock that is solid to the core is not as good - think man-made or cement rock. "Rock" covered in purple epoxy does not allow microfauna to populate the rock or for it to denitrify very well.

Lastly, aragonite binds phosphate. Rock from the ocean has nearly none and can help smooth the phosphate swings/issues since it can bond phosphate nearly immediately and keep it stable until water is changed and the level gets lowered. Do not underestimate how much phosphate that aragonite can hold.

You can get all of the pods, worms and biodiversity that you need from a single frag plug. You can also get all of the nasty pests that you want from a single frag plug. It is more important that the rock be able to house the beneficial organisms and give them a nice place to thrive. The rock being the source to introduce them to your tank is not as important.

 

[Fourstars]

From my point of view, faster or no cycle, no algae issue and more diversity. As far as SPS I have know idea. Any answer here would just be speculation. If it's working and you are past the so called ugly stage I would not touch a thing.

 

[jda]

If any of you are chronic thinkers... to a detriment, then take a step back and stop thinking so much. More people had SPS success a decade ago with a few simple basic differences than today. Live rock, not using LED lights and not chasing parameter or nutrient levels. There were no posts about alk swings, nutrient levels (to a degree), parameter swings, etc... just tanks that grew SPS pretty well. The people who are exceptional SPS growers still do things like this. Even though the details can get clouded by man's desire to understand the minutia, this should be easy to understand at a macro level.

 

[Bmasculine]

That is what I was thinking, I used artificial rock in my display so no leaching phosphates or pest to worry about, I have a sump full of marinepure that should have plenty of surface area for bacteria to make up for the lack of with the artificial rock. I over feed my fish to try to keep nitrate detectable and my po4 is still only .015 as per Hanna Ulr checker. I just couldn’t understand what live rock contributes to thriving sps. Maybe on immediate startup liverock would have a definite advantage. This is just my 2 cents

 

[RUNVS]

FWIW I started a 65 gallon SPS Dominant Tank a little over a year ago and put about 5 pieces of dead dry (was Live a few years ago) rock that Acid washed and a few bags of live sand with a few marine pure blocks in my sump. When I started the tank I dosed 60 vials of Prodibio I put 6 fish in 24 hours later and about 10 sps frags 48 hours later, and have been adding ever since, my growth wasn't stellar by any means but slowly encrusting the rocks and I would say it has taken about a year for everything to really start taking off as I am noticing a few of my corals seem to add at least an inch a week now but never lost any corals with the dead rock, my tank was seeded with Coraline about 2 weeks in to startup and by 3 months the entire tank was purple with coraline. Just my experience I dont doubt some people tend to struggle more under different scenarios thats whats so interesting about this hobby no two setups/ tanks are alike. Knock on wood I have never had to deal with algae issues, i never use carbon or GFO in fact I dont test anything except ALK once a week or so.

 

[Denniswbliss]

Yes if the dry rock has been cured it will indeed grow a sps reef.

 

[shelbycobra1017]

+1. While there are exceptions to every rule, generally speaking, acropora tend to just do better in more mature systems. They pick up on more than just the basic 5 parameters most of us test for. Heavy sponge growth, lots of bacteria, nutrient rich but not dirty water, lots of microfauna...all of that equals happier acros and faster growth. New dry rock tanks may look great on paper but they’re pretty desolate biologically. Not much going on and the acros don’t typically appreciate that too much.

I don't know if I got lucky but I set up my nano in January. February i added a acro and today it's at least doubled in size. I did buy it as a frag though. I'm asking cause it seems like you know your stuff.

 

[Forsaken77]

For man-made rock... I think it also depends on what it's made from. The Real Reef Rock and Walt Smith are both made with concrete. Most tanks I've seen with these rocks are extremely dense and have algae issues constantly.

The best alternative, imo, is the CaribSea Life Rock, which is made of aragonite and has bacteria spores on it. It also is more porous.

 

[Bpb]

I don't know if I got lucky but I set up my nano in January. February i added a acro and today it's at least doubled in size. I did buy it as a frag though. I'm asking cause it seems like you know your stuff.

I appreciate the compliment. I’m a novice compared to most who have chimed in on here. I will speak 90% from personal observations on my own systems, 5% What I seem to see other smart folks ecperiencing, and 5% on theory.

I think you CAN get acropora to do fantastic on a dry rock started tank. You just have to introduce a lot of bacteria and not be afraid of some algae early on. Stock heavy on herbivores rather than trying to alter chemistry and lights to attack algae. I’ve seen recently one individual who took down a large acro packed tank full of large high end aquacultured colonies, dried his rocks out. Didn’t clean them, started a new tank with the same dry dirty rocks, induced an intentional bacterial bloom by overdosing prodibio biodigest. Ran a large uv sterilizer two weeks later. And loaded it with fish and acros again. 2 weeks into a dry setup. Months later it looks about as good as his old tank did before take down. Nearly all colonies thriving and growing. And yes. There’s some algae. That will fade after a year or so. He didn’t run from the nutrients. He used them to his advantage to get rapid dense bacterial growth and it seemed to work. I’ll likely take a similar approach in the future

 

[Luno]

For those that have said sponges, biodiversity, bacteria aid in sps health and health can you explain how you see this? I'm curious.

When I think coral and here referring to sps, I think water chemistry, temperature, salinity, nutrients, flow and light. These are things that directly have a response on how a coral will color, grow, and it's general health.

The only thing I see biodiversity, bacteria aiding in is stability and homeostasis. Things to control parameters, perform tasks of anaerobic and aerobic, the nitrogen cycle. This creates a stable and mature tank which allows what you want to thrive, but that doesn't directly relate to the coral health itself. It just means your tank is stable.

 

[Bpb]

I can’t explain it. Just has been the case for me and many people I know