Stabilize

[wesleyclement85]

Alk dropped from 11dkh to 9 dkh in the past 2 days calcium went up from 350 to 450 mag dropped from 1500 to 1440. How can I stabilize this? PH 8.2 ammonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 5.00 phosphate 0.25

 

[CoralNerd]

Did you increase your ca dosage? That can drop your alk.
Try to stabilize that alk...have you increased your alk dose yet?

 

[wesleyclement85]

I dose a and b and have been dosing equally

 

[nervousmonkey]

First, I would calculate my tank's alkalinity usage. Easy to do over a specified period of time, a day, a week, whatever the case may be. The rate of alk consumption will be the same as the rate of calcium consumption. It is strange to see alk go down and calcium increase. Nothing can increase by itself though... Are you using kalkwasser? Anything else that could be increasing your CA levels? Do you run biopellets or any carbon dosing?

 

[wesleyclement85]

Absolutely nothing other than brightwell code a and code b

 

[nervousmonkey]

do you know you alk consumption? just measure it at say, 8 AM tomorrow, then again at 8 AM the next day without adding anything, see how much it dropped. If there is not enough of a drop in one day (which is typical unless you have a LOT of calcifying organisms), just do it over two days, three days, etc. until you get a good number. Divide by the number of days and then you have exactly how much alk and calc your tank consumes. The alk to calc ratio is one to one, so you should see a stabilization once you know exactly how much to add daily. If you are still off at that point, check to see if the brightwell alk is off, or bad. Unusual, but the only thing that can make alk drop and calc increase is your additions of them. If calc is added at a higher amount or rate than alk, you will see alk decline, and vice versa is also true.
First thing I would do once again, is measure alk consumption to get your alk stable. Without a stable alkalinity, your tank will not thrive.

 

[wesleyclement85]

do you know you alk consumption? just measure it at say, 8 AM tomorrow, then again at 8 AM the next day without adding anything, see how much it dropped. If there is not enough of a drop in one day (which is typical unless you have a LOT of calcifying organisms), just do it over two days, three days, etc. until you get a good number. Divide by the number of days and then you have exactly how much alk and calc your tank consumes. The alk to calc ratio is one to one, so you should see a stabilization once you know exactly how much to add daily. If you are still off at that point, check to see if the brightwell alk is off, or bad. Unusual, but the only thing that can make alk drop and calc increase is your additions of them. If calc is added at a higher amount or rate than alk, you will see alk decline, and vice versa is also true.
First thing I would do once again, is measure alk consumption to get your alk stable. Without a stable alkalinity, your tank will not thrive.

I will definitely measure this and get an accurate number on the consumption as possible and from there find out how much to add daily. I'll post again as soon as I have a good number for more advice. Thank you. Should I waterchange tomorrow as u normally do every weekend?

 

[CoralNerd]

It is strange to see alk go down and calcium increase. Nothing can increase by itself though...

Wrong

 

[wesleyclement85]

Wrong

Can you shed some light?

 

[wesleyclement85]

What is some accurate test kits? I dosed last night after testing. Normal code a and b. Tonight I'm find alk 11dkh calcium 420 and magnesium 1470. Alk and calcium is API test kit. Mag is saleferts. No way my alk and calcium recovered thay much from a single 5ml dose of a and b

 

[nervousmonkey]

Wrong

I would also be interested in learning how calcium levels can increase without addition of calcium. Nothing in the universe can increase in matter by itself my friend.
It would be cool to find out what you are talking about though. There is something to your statement I am sure....

 

[CoralNerd]

" It is strange to see alk go down and calcium increase." I said wrong to this above.

If you increase your calcium dose, your dkh can sag.

 

[wesleyclement85]

I'm dosing both equally. I never dose just 1 or the other

 

[CoralNerd]

I'm dosing both equally. I never dose just 1 or the other

Calcium and Alkalinity are not utilized at the same rate. You need to increase your alk dosage.

 

[nervousmonkey]

Calcium and Alkalinity are not utilized at the same rate. You need to increase your alk dosage.

Unfortunately they are utilized at the same rate. Calcium carbonate has a molecular formula of CaCO3. One part Ca, one part alkalinity. It is not exact due to magnesium and strontium, but it is incredibl close to a 1:1 ratio.
There are times when alkalinity is utilized at a greater rate, such as when there is incomplete cycling of nitrogenous waste, where the nitrogen cycle is not allowed to run full cycle converting nitrogenous waste all the way back to N2 gas.
A good read on the consumption of calcium and alkalinity:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.php

In re: to calcium increasing while alk goes down, I agree, that always happens if you just add calcium, but the OP isn't doing that. He stated that he is adding two part from BW in equal parts, so that is not what is causing his issues.

 

[nervousmonkey]

@wesleyclement85 , calcium and carbonate are utilized at the same rate. It is a chemical bond, with one part calcium and the other carbonate. It looks to all of us as if alkalinity is used at a higher rate, but that is a matter of the unit measures we employ to test. 1 dKH = 20 ppm calcium, so while it looks like alkalinity is being consumed at a greater rate than calcium, it simply has to do with the units of measure, combined with the fact that seawater has a lot more calcium than carbonate/bicarbonate. The largest chemical reason why the 1:1 ratio of calcium and alkalinity consumption does not follow perfectly in the 1:1 ratio is due to magnesium, which replaces calcium at a rate of 1% to 4%, percentage being very dependent on the type of corals in the tank. Another way to think about it is 1 dKH per 20 ppm calcium, without magnesium or strontium in the mix (no pun intended). Mg++ changes the ratio of 1 dKH to 20 ppm Ca++ to the tune of 1 dKH to 19.x ppm CA and (1-x) ppm Mg++, depending on the type of coral. A 1% change due to Mg++ then makes the ratio 1 dKH to 19.2 ppm Ca++, and on the more extreme side of 4% change due to Mg++, the ratio then becomes 1 dKH to 16.7 ppm Ca++. Using the math above, 1 dKH to 19.2 Ca++ means that magnesium's effect is 1dKH to 0.8 ppm Mg++.
If you have a lot of CaCO3 depositing corals or coralline algae, the effect will be more pronounced. Corals such as softies do utilize some CaCO3, but not to the extent that SPS/coralline/clams and to a much lesser extent, LPS corals do.
This is why it is important to have Mg++ in a ratio of ~3X the amount of Ca++. It provides stability for Ca++ levels, which in turn help stabilize alkalinity.

The effect of alkalinity loss due to the nitrogen cycle is zero. At a level of 50 ppm of nitrate, 2.3 dKH is depleted due to the ammonia conversion to nitrate which produces a H+ ion, which in turn depletes a carbonate ion. However, when the nitrogen cycle is allowed to go to completion, where No3 is converted to N2, or nitrogen gas (in an anoxic environment), 2.3 dKH of alkalinity is produced, making the loss of alkalinity due to the nitrogen cycle exactly zero.
The real world loss of alkalinity in the nitrogen cycle occurs when we remove nitrate from our systems before it can be converted to N2 gas, essentially due to water changes, and in this instance, alkalinity is lost that will not be replaced. This may be one of the reasons why we see a lot of old reefers that do not change more than 10% of water at a time. They may or may not have understood the chemistry behind the loss of alkalinity, but can certainly see the adverse effects of an alkalinity drop due to removal of nitrate and the consequent removal of alkalinity.

Ultimately, @CoralNerd is correct that alkalinity is utilized at a higher rate in our tanks due to unrelated chemical reactions, although the effect is relatively small unless there are a lot of organisms building CaCO3 skeletons. This is really a matter of semantics, and I get where CoralNerd is coming from. In chemistry, there is a 1:1 ratio. In the *real* world however, alkalinity will be consumed outside of skeleton building coral chemical reactions, so it appears that alkalinity and calcium are consumed at different rates.
Back to @wesleyclement85 questions:

What is some accurate test kits? I dosed last night after testing. Normal code a and b. Tonight I'm find alk 11dkh calcium 420 and magnesium 1470. Alk and calcium is API test kit. Mag is saleferts. No way my alk and calcium recovered thay much from a single 5ml dose of a and b

Salifert is what I prefer, and is pretty widely accepted as an excellent test kit. API isn't that bad for alkalinity, although I would seriously recommend going all Salifert. Since you are trying to keeping parameters stable, go with Salifert, and as stated before, calculate your alkalinity consumption. Then you will know how much to add, and you can keep it in that range. My recommendation as far as water changes and stability are dependent on a couple of things:
1. What salt mix do you use?
2. What is your target alkalinity?
A) Test your salt mixes alkalinity at 1.026.
B) Test your tank water's alk level before a WC, then make sure that when you do a WC, you are always changing the same amount by volume or by percentage, e.g., always change 10 gallons at a time, or 10%, the actual numbers are up to you. Reason why you do this is so you know that when your DT gets to an alk level of say, 10.5, you can do a WC of 10 gallons which will bring up the alk to 11, as an example. Now your alk can be stable at levels in between 10.5 and 11.
C) In between WC's, add alkalinity at the consumption rate you have calculated. Either daily additions, biweekly, whatever your schedule is that will keep your alk levels in between 10.5 and 11.
D) Then when it is time for a WC, you know what your alk level will be. When you dose your alkalinity, also dose the calcium part of the 2 part at an equal amount, which will keep your calcium levels in the ballpark until you do a WC, which should keep the levels stable. Over the long term, you'll want to monitor trends of your calcium, which will tell you when the 1:1 ratio is deviating due to organisms with high utilization rates of CaCO3, which as stated before, causes the greatest shift due to the magnesium substitution of calcium.

Long post, but I hope that helps Wesley. And thank you CoralNerd, your point is well taken, and useful for real world reefing, not classroom reefing. :D

 

[wesleyclement85]

@wesleyclement85 , calcium and carbonate are utilized at the same rate. It is a chemical bond, with one part calcium and the other carbonate. It looks to all of us as if alkalinity is used at a higher rate, but that is a matter of the unit measures we employ to test. 1 dKH = 20 ppm calcium, so while it looks like alkalinity is being consumed at a greater rate than calcium, it simply has to do with the units of measure, combined with the fact that seawater has a lot more calcium than carbonate/bicarbonate. The largest chemical reason why the 1:1 ratio of calcium and alkalinity consumption is due to magnesium, which replaces calcium at a rate of 1% to 4%, but very dependent on the type of corals in the tank. Another way to think about it is 1 dKH per 20 ppm calcium, without magnesium or strontium in the mix (no pun intended). Mg++ changes the ratio of 1 dKH to 20 ppm Ca++ to a respectable level, depending on the type of coral. A 1% change due to Mg++ then makes the ratio 1 dKH to 19.2 ppm Ca++, and on the more extreme side of 4% change due to Mg++, the ratio then becomes 1 dKH to 16.7 ppm Ca++.
If you have a lot of CaCO3 depositing corals or coralline algae, the effect will be more pronounced. Corals such as softies do utilize some CaCO3, but not to the extent that SPS/clams and to a much lesser extent, LPS corals do.
This is why it is important to have Mg++ in a ratio of ~3X the amount of Ca++. It provides stability for Ca++ levels, which in turn help stabilize alkalinity.

The effect of alkalinity loss due to the nitrogen cycle is zero. At a level of 50 ppm of nitrate, 2.3 dKH is depleted due to the ammonia conversion to nitrate which produces a H+ ion, which in turn depletes a carbonate ion. However, when the nitrogen cycle is allowed to go to completion, where No3 is converted to N2, or nitrogen gas (in an anoxic environment), 2.3 dKH of alkalinity is produced, making the loss of alkalinity due to the nitrogen cycle exactly zero.
The loss of alkalinity in the nitrogen cycle occurs when we remove nitrate from our systems before it can be converted to N2 gas, essentially in water changes, and in this instance, alkalinity is lost that will not be replaced.

Ultimately, @CoralNerd is correct that alkalinity is not utilized at the same rate in our tanks due to outside chemical reactions, although the effect is relatively small unless there are a lot of organisms building CaCO3 skeletons. This is really a matter of semantics, and I get where CoralNerd is coming from. In chemistry, there is a 1:1 ratio. In the *real* world, alkalinity will be consumed outside of skeleton building coral chemical reactions.
Back to @wesleyclement85 questions:

Salifert is what I prefer, and is pretty widely accepted as an excellent test kit. API isn't that bad for alkalinity, although I would seriously recommend going all Salifert. Since you are trying to keeping parameters stable, go with Salifert, and as stated before, calculate your alkalinity consumption. Then you will know how much to add, and you can keep it in that range. My recommendation as far as water changes and stability are dependent on a couple of things:
1. What salt mix do you use?
2. What is your target alkalinity level?
A) Test your salt mixes alkalinity level at 1.026.
B) Test your tank water's alk level before a WC, then make sure that when you do a WC, you are always changing the same amount by volume or by percentage, e.g., always change 10 gallons at a time, or 10%, whatever, numbers are up to you. Reason why you do this is so you know that when your DT gets to an alk level of say, 10.5, you do a WC of 10 gallons which will bring up the alk to 11. Now your alk can be stable at levels in between 10.5 and 11.
C) In between WC's, add alkalinity at the consumption rate you have calculated. Either daily additions, biweekly, whatever your schedule is that will keep your alk levels in between 10.5 and 11.
D) Then when it is time for a WC, you know what your alk level will be. When you dose your alkalinity, also dose the calcium part of the 2 part at an equal amount, which will keep your calcium levels in the ballpark until you do a WC, which should keep the levels stable. Over the long term, you'll want to monitor trends of your calcium, which will tell you when the 1:1 ratio is deviating due to coralline, or corals with high utilization rates of CaCO3.

Long post, but I hope that helps Wesley. And thank you CoralNerd, your point is well taken, and useful for real world reefing, not classroom reefing. :D

Wow ok let read that a few times

 

[nervousmonkey]

I know that was long man, but it warranted a discussion to clear up everything. In all actuality, @CoralNerd was right. You have an alkalinity sink somewhere in your system. We can help you if you let us know what kinds of corals you have as well as coralline algae, carbon dosing?? Esp. biopellets... too large a water change in the presence of high nitrates will drop your alkalinity out the bottom, and then as CN said, adding calcium on top of that will drop alk even further.... OK, enough for a Sat night...

 

[wesleyclement85]

I have 2 frogspawn 2 rbta 1 hammer 1 watermelon mushroom 1 orange and green recordia 1 birdsnest 2 leathers 1 mini carpet nem 1 plate coral 3 zoa colonies 1 tiny xenia colony 1 Hollywood stunner chalice. Only dosing bw code a and b. No sump no carbon no pellets just a HOB skimmer. Pretty plain and simple. Using Fritz pro salts

 

[nervousmonkey]

Cool. Those corals shouldn't be using much calcium or alk, at least not enough to merit adding 2 part. What if I may ask, prompted you to dose BW a and b? A good WC schedule should keep your levels stable. @Sabellafella has a great system for keeping his alk stable. Involves waiting until alk drops to a specific level then a WC brings alk and other parameters back to the goal level, essentially an alk swing of only 0.4 dKH. I am quite sure that your tank doesn't need 2 part to keep you in the range you decide on. By adding the BW a and b, I think you are making the system less stable. Your last parameters showed an alk higher than what Fritz normally produces (8.5) and your calcium and magnesium levels are off. I would just do a WC , then test for levels and keep your alkalinity within those ranges.