STN Disease in SPS

[NanPoriferan]

Hi Everyone,

Seems I have the dreaded STN/RTN disease in my tank and I'm considering options in treatment and getting back to a disease-free tank. First of all, tank breakdown including params:

32gal mixed reef biocube, no sump, no filter media whatsoever. Carbon dosing vodka. Tank 3yrs old. Two fishes reactor with biopellets also from two fishes (offlined the other day, as pump died and have to get new one).

NO3: ~5ppm
PO4: 0.04ppm
Alk: 8.2dKh
Calcium: 430ppm
Mag: ~1400ppm
Sp Gravity: 1.026
pH: 8.1-8.5

Brief breakdown of organisms in the display tank:
- Multiple species of sponges, tunicates, coco worms
- NPS: gorgonia, fat head dendro, sun coral
- SPS: birds nest, montipora, acropora, millipora, cyphastrea
- LPS: micromussa, lophyllia
- Soft: kenya trees

Additives:

- vodka, 0.3ml daily
- PNS Probio homegrown, 40ml daily
- Phytofeast, 40 drops daily
- SpongePower, 5 drops daily
- AcroPower, 5ml daily
- Night time Kalkwasser, ESV mag, alk, calcium

Light is Radion XR15 Blue on the AB+ schedule with 8hrs solid light and one hour ramp up on each side.

Water changes bi-weekly @ 15% (~5gal). Salt is ESV Saltwater (recently changed from Tropic Marin Pro Reef). Skimming daily at least 9 hours, although I had dialed this back to only 2 before the problem began to see if I could get more growth out of the sponges.

The problem:

Everything was doing great in the tank, until I added an acro frag about a month and a half ago. Thought it wasn't getting the right flow, so repositioned it. It responded with RTN that looked like brown jelly sloughing off it it. Fragged it to save some small pieces. I didn't realize one of the small pieces landed on my large montipora plate and was hidden from view, so didn't discover it until the next day when there was around a 1" area of bleach on the cap. Discovered and discarded the piece of acro. Thought the bleaching (RTN/STN) would stop, but it kept on spreading and producing the same brown jelly like sloughing off which I basted off. I decided to frag the large montipora and remove the dead area - this worked, for a time. I then noticed the disease had spread to my large setosa colony, so I decided to frag it and remove the dead branches, this worked, but i had lost a lot of the above coral colonies. Then the disease spread to my large bird's nest colony and decimated it, but I again fragged it and saved a few branches. I should mention that during this period I ramped the skimming back up to 9hrs a day. A couple of weeks passed, and I thought the issue was mitigated, until it hit one of my cyphastrea colonies. I could not frag this one since it was encrusted over a piece of live rock, so I decided to do a witch Hazel dip as specified in the Reef Moonshiner's blog. Put it back in the tank, but there was no change and I lost the whole colony. Interestingly enough, the acros have so far been fairly resistant to this disease, but I am getting white tips here and there.

At this point, I am reaching out to see what you guys might recommend I do. I am considering treating the whole tank with the Witch Hazel treatment method method above, but I fear I might lose my filter feeders and sponges if I do this - does anyone know if it is safe to do with tunicates and sponges? Any other people experience the same dire circumstances that have plagued me for the last month? Any advice as to what I should do to fix this dire situation? Any advice appreciated!

 

[djf91]

I had what I think was a coral pathogen pop up last summer as multiple SPS started to stn all at once after the addition of a few frags. I ended up treating the system with Cipro which did halt all stn but also knocked out my bio filter. Within 2 weeks nitrates climbed from 5 to 70 and cyano popped up. I am still working to get these back down 8 months later now. I would not recommend this treatment unless you can take the colonies out of the tank and treat.

Several months ago, I had another stn event start on a few SPS. After doing some reading, I decided to start dosing iodine and potassium. This had an immediate positive effect on every coral in the tank. Stopped the stn over night on a large encrusting montipora colony I have.

 

[NanPoriferan]

I had what I think was a coral pathogen pop up last summer as multiple SPS started to stn all at once after the addition of a few frags. I ended up treating the system with Cipro which did halt all stn but also knocked out my bio filter. Within 2 weeks nitrates climbed from 5 to 70 and cyano popped up. I am still working to get these back down 8 months later now. I would not recommend this treatment unless you can take the colonies out of the tank and treat.

Several months ago, I had another stn event start on a few SPS. After doing some reading, I decided to start dosing iodine and potassium. This had an immediate positive effect on every coral in the tank. Stopped the stn over night on a large encrusting montipora colony I have.

Thanks for your reply! Was definitely wary of putting anything in my tank that could knock out the microbiome, and your story affirms this. I would like to try dosing Potassium and Iodine - any particular guideline you are following for dosing, and any particular products?

 

[jda]

There is no STN disease. Unhealthy corals is the issue. There are enough types of bacteria and protozoa already in the acropora to kill them if they are not healthy enough to keep them at bay - like another other living thing.

Whatever is impacting your corals are already in them. There is no strange disease that popped up out of nowhere that is killing them.

Here is how this went... company came along offering dna testing for things in your tank. They showed some as SCTLD when they categorically were not the real SCTLD. People needlessly freaked and went to the quick-fix of antibiotics and sometimes anti fungals. Nearly everybody who treated say unintended consequences and then a return (as stated by dfj in post number two). Whole hobby was impacted in a bad way, IMO.

You are just going to lose some SPS. It happens. Make the others strong with more stable water quality, better parameters and better light if you need to. You also might just find that a few corals will never do well in your tank so focus on the others.

 

[Spare time]

What test kits do you use for nitrate and phosphate. Could the corals be starving? I'd also run activated carbon.

 

[jda]

BTW - this is not the first time that a vendor stoked fear into hobbyists when corals started to die. Prime Coral RTN was a BS product that claimed that all corals with any kind of tissue loss resulted in philaster which was the only cause for the tissue loss and also could not be killed or controlled without their product. ...only, there is philaster in every coral already and plenty of people have had tissue loss events that stopped at just one or two corals.

Some hobbyists freaked and online posts and videos kinda went wild. It was all wrongheaded like the recent antibiotic treatment threads.

I know that people yearn for simple solutions, but there is none. Just like one politician cannot really do that much, one different decision from your past will not make you happy, etc. the real answer is much more complex.

 

[Troylee]

Agreed with Jda! Stay away from antibiotics or you’re just gonna kill your biome and find it really hard to keep sps down the road… I have over 60 acros and 1 will ghost me every so often and not much you can while the rest are flourishing! You got some unstable parameters if it was a mass event and even killed a monti, cyphastrea.

 

[NanPoriferan]

@jda and @Troylee while I agree with you for the most part, I would definitely say there is something else going on in my tank that I cannot explain yet. I have been keeping SPS for years now, successfully. As I mentioned, these large colonies did take years to grow into the large, beautiful colonies that they were. I was testing on a daily basis, my parameters were as stable as can be hopeful with less than a 0.3 dkh swing in alk per day and the same with pH. I have been using Hanna test kits this whole time, results which were cross-checked for any calibration errors as well. I remain mystified by the event and the only thing that could begin to explain this is a pathogen, or perhaps a trace element that is out of wack or deficient. I think an ICP test is definitely warranted at this point? following the logic, perhaps a trace element or pollutant exists in my tank rather than a pathogen, that is making the SPS corals weak and susceptible to STN/RTN. I should mention that all the sponges and filter feeders are thriving, the LPS haven't skipped a beat, even the acros are doing well - it's only the cyphastrea, monti, and birds nest. Thoughts?

 

[jda]

That sounds like running a reef tank to me. As I am sure that you have heard, smaller tanks are less stable for lots of unknown reasons and sometimes a coral or two just die. You will risk every other coral to try and save these three if you want to go the pathogen route.

I would double and triple check your basics - refractometer, temp sensor, etc.

I don't supplement, so I don't know too much about that. Do you feed your fish a lot?

 

[Pod_01]

Any pictures to share?
As suggested check the basics, ICP can help but it is unlikely it will reveal mysterious killer, maybe if copper or zinc are at super elevated levels but most things would be suffering.

Jelly type substances might be related to carbon dosing (bacteria growth). Maybe stop for a week or three. You mentioned vodka and bio pellets, seems a lot going on in 32gal tank, sometimes less can help.
I personally would keep skimmer running all the time, oxygen is important, carbon dosing can deplete this.

 

[dwest]

I would go back to basics like JDA mentioned above. Of all things, my Apex temperature sensor shifted 6 degrees a couple years ago.

I would also not add any supplements other than water changes and maintaining calcium, magnesium, and alkalinity. I had much more STN in my tank in the 6 months that I carbon dosed vs. the 30 years I didn’t.

I’ve never learned anything directly related to my tank with ICP. Others likely have.

 

[NanPoriferan]

That sounds like running a reef tank to me. As I am sure that you have heard, smaller tanks are less stable for lots of unknown reasons and sometimes a coral or two just die. You will risk every other coral to try and save these three if you want to go the pathogen route.

I would double and triple check your basics - refractometer, temp sensor, etc.

I don't supplement, so I don't know too much about that. Do you feed your fish a lot?

Yeah, good call to check back on the basics incase I could have missed something. The thing is, this is not just 1 or two corals getting hit, but 4 large colonies, one after another. I feed my fish and corals moderately. Now the thing is that I will absolutely hesistate to put any more SPS in the tank until I feel the situation is corrected, and what makes this complicated is not having a strong idea as to what the culprit is yet or what to correct.

I'm not going to go the pathogen route, I think after the comments I've read, it's leading me to suspect that if anything, I went wrong with one of the supplements. Regardless, going back to not dosing anything for a bit and just controlling for the basics, do regular water changes, and see if the remaining SPS in the tank survive. The urgency was me trying to save what SPS I have left.

 

[NanPoriferan]

Any pictures to share?
As suggested check the basics, ICP can help but it is unlikely it will reveal mysterious killer, maybe if copper or zinc are at super elevated levels but most things would be suffering.

Jelly type substances might be related to carbon dosing (bacteria growth). Maybe stop for a week or three. You mentioned vodka and bio pellets, seems a lot going on in 32gal tank, sometimes less can help.
I personally would keep skimmer running all the time, oxygen is important, carbon dosing can deplete this.

When you mentioned zinc, something did ring a bell - I had been dosing ESV transition elements per the instructions on the bottle daily. This has zinc in it. I have stopped that. My money is that this is the culprit now...

Jelly stuff is actually the zooanthellae being expelled by the coral and dying I believe...the dead tissue. I know what to look for with carbon dosing as I have been doing it precisely for years. I have offlined my biopellet reactor however, because it stagnated when the pump was slowly dying and not receiving the proper flow - this could have led to a build-up of unwanted, harmful substances. I agree that this is alot for a 32gal. I originally installed it to create more bacteria for the sponges, but struggled with ULNS tank until i started feeding much more heavily.

My skimmer runs 24/7 although I remove the cup so it won't skim whenever I don't want to skim, but still oxygenate the water. I am actively skimming around 8-10hrs a day now.

 

[NanPoriferan]

I would go back to basics like JDA mentioned above. Of all things, my Apex temperature sensor shifted 6 degrees a couple years ago.

I would also not add any supplements other than water changes and maintaining calcium, magnesium, and alkalinity. I had much more STN in my tank in the 6 months that I carbon dosed vs. the 30 years I didn’t.

I’ve never learned anything directly related to my tank with ICP. Others likely have.

Interesting that you noted more STN in the 6 months that you were carbon dosing vs when you didn't. It does make rethink the carbon dosing even though I've been doing it for years successfully...but who knows, maybe some things could be doing better without it. Perhaps I can nutrient-control with more biomedia or otherwise...I would still need a reliable, alternate method of nutrient control if I am going to shift away from carbon dosing. Any particular method you sway towards?

 

[NanPoriferan]

Will post some pictures tomorrow. I will show the before and after

 

[dwest]

Interesting that you noted more STN in the 6 months that you were carbon dosing vs when you didn't. It does make rethink the carbon dosing even though I've been doing it for years successfully...but who knows, maybe some things could be doing better without it. Perhaps I can nutrient-control with more biomedia or otherwise...I would still need a reliable, alternate method of nutrient control if I am going to shift away from carbon dosing. Any particular method you sway towards?

Managing nitrates and phosphates long term in my current tank has been a challenge. In the past, some of my tanks stayed in acceptable (to me) range without much intervention. In the past, I have used deep sand beds (with and without plenums), siporax, gfo, vinegar dosing, and lighted refugiums to control nutrients.

In my current tank (started 2018 ish) I use a good skimmer and a small amount of gfo. I do 1% AWC. I also currently run with my nitrates in the 40’s and phosphates about 0.4 ppm. I value simplicity highly. So if I feel I need to lower nitrates, I might add another skimmer or possibly use siporax again.

However, as you probably have figured out, you can poke holes in almost any “recommended” values for nitrates and phosphates.

Here’s my latest FTS with high nitrates and phosphates. Just yesterday, I removed about a gallon of acropora trimmings.

 

[Pod_01]

Jelly stuff is actually the zooanthellae being expelled by the coral and dying I believe

If it is indeed corals expelling zooxanthellae you can end up with dinoflagellates. Dinoflagellates/dinos are ejected zooxanthellae from unhappy coral and under ideal conditions will grow on exposed surfaces.

Since you are dosing AcroPower which is amino acid it is like pouring gasoline on fire. Amino is fuel for Dino/zooxanthellae.
I am not sure what is in SpongePower but that might also contain amino.

Corals and SPS do require nutrients etc… but too much is not necessary better and limitation is preferred. For example if you over fertilizer your plants they wither and die, similar with corals. You might initially see good growth and suddenly it is down hill.

 

[djf91]

If it is indeed corals expelling zooxanthellae you can end up with dinoflagellates. Dinoflagellates/dinos are ejected zooxanthellae from unhappy coral and under ideal conditions will grow on exposed surfaces.

Is this really true? I had never heard this before. While I have heard that zooxanthellae is a type of Dinoflagellate, I didn’t think that the species that pop up on the substrate are the same species as what lives in the tissues of our corals. I figured the zooxanthellae species evolved specifically to live within coral tissue. What about FOWLR systems that get Dino’s and have no corals at all?

 

[Pod_01]

Is this really true?

Where do you think they come from? Especially when you have dead rock, dead sand and only few corals?

They do not appear from thin air, the corals expel them especially when they are stressed and because we have such ideal condition in the tank they reproduce. Dinoflagellates/dinos love bright lights, all the nice clean surfaces that are exposed and if you have nutrients locked in those surfaces, bonus feeding time.
I suspect this is what most people have in the tank.

From my experience, if you keep corals happy there are no Dino’s, if you tick them off and there is expulsion of zooxanthellae, Dino’s outbreak follows. So far this has never failed me. Experience with dead rock, dead sand…
Good quality live rock has bacteria that prevents the Dino’s from reaching plague proportions or taking hold.

It is also true that you have many types of dinoflagellates, many don’t do anything some are pest and some can hitch a ride on a fish or other critter. I might have lot of experience with one type, coral based one.

I am bit surprised by this statement:

What about FOWLR systems that get Dino’s and have no corals at all?

Most FOWLR systems should have minimal lighting so Dino’s should not be a problem. They require lights to become a pest and one of the treatments is to reduce intensity or blackout. I am actually surprised FOWLR systems have these!!! Perhaps the plague proportion in these systems follow different vectors or are different strain of dinoflagellates.
I am speculating, I have zero experience with FOWLR systems.
Perhaps it is other type of pest that is confused with Dino’s?

 

[djf91]

Where do you think they come from? Especially when you have dead rock, dead sand and only few corals?

They do not appear from thin air, the corals expel them especially when they are stressed and because we have such ideal condition in the tank they reproduce. Dinoflagellates/dinos love bright lights, all the nice clean surfaces that are exposed and if you have nutrients locked in those surfaces, bonus feeding time.
I suspect this is what most people have in the tank.

From my experience, if you keep corals happy there are no Dino’s, if you tick them off and there is expulsion of zooxanthellae, Dino’s outbreak follows. So far this has never failed me. Experience with dead rock, dead sand…
Good quality live rock has bacteria that prevents the Dino’s from reaching plague proportions or taking hold.

It is also true that you have many types of dinoflagellates, many don’t do anything some are pest and some can hitch a ride on a fish or other critter. I might have lot of experience with one type, coral based one.

I am bit surprised by this statement:


Most FOWLR systems should have minimal lighting so Dino’s should not be a problem. They require lights to become a pest and one of the treatments is to reduce intensity or blackout. I am actually surprised FOWLR systems have these!!! Perhaps the plague proportion in these systems follow different vectors or are different strain of dinoflagellates.
I am speculating, I have zero experience with FOWLR systems.
Perhaps it is other type of pest that is confused with Dino’s?

I don’t mean to be harsh but this isn’t true at all. The dinoflagellates that live within coral tissues belong to the genus Symbiodinium. These don’t live outside their coral symbiont for long. The nuisance dinoflagellates we see in our systems covering substrate belong to the genera Amphidinium, Prorocentrum, etc…. These Dinoflagellates enter our systems through rock, sand, frag plugs. They take advantage of an environment lacking biodiversity/ microbial competition. We used to see far less of these dinoflagellate plagued systems when live rock was more common in the hobby.