Strange zoas problems

[Koh23]

OK, this is something that already cost me some zoa frags, but, really there is no way i can figure what exactly is wrong....

First - what is going on?

I get some nice zoa frag, few healthy polyps, nice colors, and size. Then, for some time (let's say, month-two-three at max) everything is great. Zoas growts is good, i have few new heads, color is great, size is enormous....

Then, first, zoa gets lighter colors. For example, from dark, almost black purple, they start to have more pinkish hue, getting brighter and brighter, but they DONT loose color, color is simply changed to very light variant of original color that frag had when i got him.

Third stage is that heads starts to shrink, getting smaller and smaller, but, still fully opened and colored in that new color.
Fourth and final stage is very quick - closed one head, two, three, then melting and leaving only rock....

Second - what it is and what is not?

I dipped all frags more than once, beside usual copepods or some snails, there was no visible pests, algae, or anything suspicious. In tank, there is nothing known for eating zoas, some asterinas, but, i rule them out as suspect. Here and there some flatworms.

Some cyano on sand, overall tank is clean.

Third - equipment, parameters and stuff

No3 - 2-5
Po4 - undetectable, <0,02
CA - 450
MG - 1500
ALK - 8
PH - 8-ish, so hard to tell with titration test....

Flow - 2x sow8 at max, random mode
Lights - 2x90w rs + 4x54w t5, leds from 10-10, 2 blue t5 from 11-6, 2 t5 actinic and white from 12-5.
Skimmer, sump, refugium, everything.

Other corals doing great, mainly LPS and softies. Most interesting is that i do have some zoas that are great, don't loose colors, don't get smaller, in fact opposite, great colors, growth and head size.

And that is what puzzles me most - how one frag can be doing great, and another, in almost same place, next one to another, can be dead and melted in matter of month-two.... Same light, same flow, same water.... they are next to each other....

Only thing that is left is that light is too strong, and that these frags who died eventually come from tank with much lower light and par, and that frags simply cannot adapt..... Other explanation why one thrive and one die i don't have....

Hope someone have any ideas, suggestions, toughts....

Thanx!

 

[brucey]

Your phosphates are too low
Assuming that every test kit has an error your phos would have been either at 0 or higher than 0.02

The reasons nothing more complicated, your phos bottomed out and they’ll melt on you

 

[Tavero]

I second PO4. I also had undetectable levels despite feeding a lot and lost several zoa frags until i started dosing 0.1 mg/l per day until corals and stones were saturated. Now i went down to dosing 0.01 mg/l

 

[Koh23]

I tought that, but, wouldnt that affect all corals, and all zoas, not just some?

Also i feed several times per day, chaeto grows like crazy, maybe she take all available po4, maybe cut down lighting schedule for chaeto?

No available product here to raise po4....

 

[Koh23]

I tought that, but, wouldnt that affect all corals, and all zoas, not just some?

Also i feed several times per day, chaeto grows like crazy, maybe she take all available po4, maybe cut down lighting schedule for chaeto?

No available product here to raise po4....

 

[Tavero]

I tought that, but, wouldnt that affect all corals, and all zoas, not just some?

Also i feed several times per day, chaeto grows like crazy, maybe she take all available po4, maybe cut down lighting schedule for chaeto?

No available product here to raise po4....

All of my other corals were fine. Even cheap zoas like alien explosions and fire and ice were growing slowly. Only higher end zoas were melting away.
Where are you from? MKP and sodiumphoshphat should be available everywhere. I mean it's a freaking food additive.

 

[Koh23]

Please can you write some specifics about mkp?

Sodium phosphate i may ask in some pharmacy, beside that, i doubt that it is available in "random" stores...

 

[Tavero]

Please can you write some specifics about mkp?

Monopotassium phosphate - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Koh23]

Sadly, no luck.....

Mkp is only available on one place, but packaging is 25kg minimum... And price is 4 digit

Sodium phosphate - nothing...

Anything else?

 

[Tavero]

Anything else?

Hmm not really.
I mean the last idea i have is yeast nutrients for home brewing which contain mainly diammonium phosphate.
Not ideal but if it's the only thing available...
Where are you from? Must be hell for shopping. Where do you get your reef salt from?

 

[Koh23]

So...

Struggle continues....

Now im so close to rip them out of tank, and throw away....

Zoas are half open, with long and thin stalks..... I dipped them, no pest, no bugs, nothing. But they are looking worse each day....

Raised po4 at 0.02, no3 are around 10-ish....

Really not sure, it simply cannot be that they are streching for more light. I consider that impossible, but, again, not sure in anything anymore....

Maybe the problem is too much light?

I accept any idea, suggestion, toughts.....

 

[Tavero]

Right now a bacterial infection is destroying several of my zoa colonies and there is nothing i can do.
Yours don't seem an infection though.
I think Zoas are as beginners friendly as acros: not at all. Only some tiny mistake and they are going downhill without any hope for recovery.

 

[Koh23]

Really dont know.....

Interesting, i have same zoas in sump, in corner, light is led flood reflector, 20w 6500k.....

Zoas are brownish and ugly, but normal in size and height. Fully open.

So, from this, i conclude that problem isnt something in the water - tank and sump have same water, also, problem is not in too weak light, because in sump they get only fraction of light and spectrum that is available in tank.

So, what can be causing this.....

 

[littlebigreef]

Right now a bacterial infection is destroying several of my zoa colonies and there is nothing i can do.
Yours don't seem an infection though.
I think Zoas are as beginners friendly as acros: not at all. Only some tiny mistake and they are going downhill without any hope for recovery.

Not looking to hijack the thread by why can’t you treat them? If they can’t be removed from the tank you could always do a chemi clean treatment on the system. I’d occasionally do that in conjunction with Metroplex dips (where I can pull them) and that’s been a winner for me time and again.

 

[Stoney]

I used to get this exact issue all the time and never had po4 under 0.05. It was usually closer to 0.1ppm. Chemiclean and furan dips were hit and miss too. Only thing I've changed is adding a UV sterilizer so I think it's a bacterial issue. Would be consistent with chemiclean treatments working for some people, but I never had the stones to use chemiclean directly in the tank.

 

[Koh23]

Not sure if reply is on my issue, but if it is, i do have uv.....

 

[littlebigreef]

I used to get this exact issue all the time and never had po4 under 0.05. It was usually closer to 0.1ppm. Chemiclean and furan dips were hit and miss too. Only thing I've changed is adding a UV sterilizer so I think it's a bacterial issue. Would be consistent with chemiclean treatments working for some people, but I never had the stones to use chemiclean directly in the tank.

Sometimes it’s bacterial some times it’s protozoan.

The chemiclean and furan (IME) are better at knocking out bacterial issues. Where as I’ve only incorporated metroplex since the beginning of the year but it’s been a godsend at resolving issues the other two can’t. That leads me to believe those other problems are protozoan issues.

I hate running system wide medication but chemiclean has been really safe for me so far- no issues tied to is use. I do, however, add an aerator while throttling down the skimmer.


I’ve considered trying a UV sterilizer for my zoa trough. Wonder what other folk’s experiences are in regards to its ability to curb zoa issues.

 

[littlebigreef]

Not sure if reply is on my issue, but if it is, i do have uv.....

Didn’t mean to get us side tracked. I’ve read the entire tread, which strains are giving you trouble, you’d mentioned high end.

Also wondering what your par is like.

Zoas are wonderful in their ability to adapt to a wide range of environments. However, in high par situations, over time, they can become stressed out, color shift and collapse. What you’ve described could be that, or a bacterial/protozoan issue. You mentioned dipping, what did you dip with?

Another thread to consider is that many of the high end ‘hard to keep zoas’ actually do better in low par, Mohicans, wolverines, mauls, Scarface’s, Stratocaster morphs. I generally keep these in 70-80par.

 

[Koh23]

Thank you.

To be honest, i'm not familiar with these fancy names, some types of zoas have name, even here where i am, most of them are just generic - red zoa, green zoa, etc....

So, from my point of view, this zoas are common, low value green and red zoas.

I dipped them in fw, and in iodine dip. Beside usual things, like copepods, snail, worm, or occasinaly few flatworms,nothing ever appeared.

Par is unknown to me. No way yo get my hands on par meter, there is no borrowing or renting option, as far as i know, no single reefer here have par meter. So i have to rely on what manufacturer claims that is par levels at certain depth. Also i tried photone app for android, but with no luck, readings from it i consider simply impossible, like 8 par on center below light. So really no way to know for sure.

Beside zoas, xenia is also problematic, no growth, small polyps, other corals do great, in my opinion. Others are various mushrooms, ricordea, leather coral, gorgonia, gsp, etc... And on the other end of scale various euphilas - torch, frogspawn, hammer, also, anemones, wich are not nice and bubbly, but, they newer been in any of my tanks, so that dont worry me much.

Also, some purple stylophora, not much of a grower, but, nice color and polyps.

Light is only conclusion i have. Too much light. Really not sure why "too much light" affect zoas that are on bottom and not everything else, including some leather coral that is directly under one lamp, 5cm below water surface. So, i'm back to square one.

If light is too low, and zoas are streching for light, wouldnt that low light affect euphilas first?

One more plus for too strong lights is that i need to clean glass daily, even two times a day. Green film. Also, sand is covered in brown "stuff", it can be diatoms,.or dinos....

I read a lot, and some general recommendation for soft/lps tanks is 4x t5 lights, or 50-90w range of leds, number of units depends on tank lenght.

So, i really cant see scenario in which 2x90w leds paired with 4x54w t5 are not enough for soft/lps tank.

That brings me back to conclusion that i have too much light.

I tought that i turn of t5 completely, and reduce leds to 50-60% range....

Judging by the manufacturer, and some people here did par testing on these lights and results are very close to what manufacturer says..... If it says that at 24" depth lights give 150par.... I really cannot see how i can go wrong by reducing light output to 50%, but i really dont want to mess my euphilias or other corals that are good....

 

[Tavero]

Not looking to hijack the thread by why can’t you treat them? If they can’t be removed from the tank you could always do a chemi clean treatment on the system. I’d occasionally do that in conjunction with Metroplex dips (where I can pull them) and that’s been a winner for me time and again.

Why do you assume i didn't treat them? Not everyone is living in the us and has the same brands available, but i went through dips of peroxide, iodine and coral rx. Also full tank treatments of Cyano solution (antibiotika), DinoX and Reefhd Flux.
The problem is, of you are patient like me and don't start the treatment instantly the zoa colonies look slightly unhappy, they are done for.
Just look how many threads are dealing with zoa problems. The overall majority of them never recover.

OP had low nutrient issues which can start the zoa degeneration on its own or make them susceptible for other diseases. In the end we never know.