Sudden bacterial infection

[nanomania]

Is it possible that a different brand of nauplii can cause bacterial infection?

My pipe was doing fantastic, and suddenly today it had bacterial infection.
I had added bangais, and they were feeding too. Also have a mandarin.

I added a pair of peppermints and changed the brine shrimp brand. Im from india, we get OSI and salt lake brand. I was using saltlake brand before, which hatched in 12hrs, the OSI brand takes much more time, 15-24hrs, and the hatch rate is also pretty low.

 

[vlangel]

Do you sterilize your hatchery after every hatch and enrichment?

I suppose it is possible for some brands to be more prone to contributing to bacteria although I have never experienced that.

Adding the bangaiis could have helped bring it on. Pipefish, like seahorses are vulnerable to bacterial infections.

 

[nanomania]

I just remembered, that rwcently i had forgotten to switch in the air pump, i switched it on in the morning, then fed it at night. Can that be the cause..

Do nauplii have bacterial infection?
I wash it with freshwater, then let it dry, then use it again.

 

[vlangel]

I just remembered, that rwcently i had forgotten to switch in the air pump, i switched it on in the morning, then fed it at night. Can that be the cause..

Do nauplii have bacterial infection?
I wash it with freshwater, then let it dry, then use it again.

Yes, forgetting to turn on the air pump I would think could definitely contributed to elevated bacteria.

 

[nanomania]

The pipe and bangai is dead.. mandarin looks fine.. is it coz mandarins have thick slime, it didnot affect it?

 

[rayjay]

Sorry to hear of the demise of your fish.
While artemia cysts are WELL known to harbour nasty bacteria, the majority of hobbyists don't often, or never, experience losses from using them.
Most fish are more resistant to these bacteria than seahorses are, but I don't know what the sensitivity is really like for pipefish.
Personally, I bleach my cysts before hatching, and after hatching I treat the nauplii with peroxide which combined, lessens the chances of any infections from artemia.
Does the tank have other circulation in addition to the air pump? Did the bangai have visible signs of bacterial infection?
All that being said, I'd hesitate to blame the artemia cysts OR the air pump being off as there are other possibilities as well. i.e. with other circulation the lack of air in the short term should not result in deaths that fast.
One other possibility could be addition of pathogens from other fish added to the system.
Over the years I've found early on I was too quick to assign blame for a death, but as time went on, I realized that without pathological testing, I would never know for sure.
I have evolved now to just assume the problem is due to water issues and to rethink whatever my husbandry protocol has been at the time. It may not be the actual remedy for that immediate problem, but, over the years, it certainly seems to have been the answer for most of the problems I've had, and now, with my present extreme protocols, I've only had one death in many years, (other than fry) and that reduced me to 13 from 14 seahorses, barbs and abs.
Whether or not this is of any help to pipefish keepers I just don't know, but being they are basically a close cousin to seahorses it might be worth considering.

 

[nanomania]

Sorry to hear of the demise of your fish.
While artemia cysts are WELL known to harbour nasty bacteria, the majority of hobbyists don't often, or never, experience losses from using them.
Most fish are more resistant to these bacteria than seahorses are, but I don't know what the sensitivity is really like for pipefish.
Personally, I bleach my cysts before hatching, and after hatching I treat the nauplii with peroxide which combined, lessens the chances of any infections from artemia.
Does the tank have other circulation in addition to the air pump? Did the bangai have visible signs of bacterial infection?
All that being said, I'd hesitate to blame the artemia cysts OR the air pump being off as there are other possibilities as well. i.e. with other circulation the lack of air in the short term should not result in deaths that fast.
One other possibility could be addition of pathogens from other fish added to the system.
Over the years I've found early on I was too quick to assign blame for a death, but as time went on, I realized that without pathological testing, I would never know for sure.
I have evolved now to just assume the problem is due to water issues and to rethink whatever my husbandry protocol has been at the time. It may not be the actual remedy for that immediate problem, but, over the years, it certainly seems to have been the answer for most of the problems I've had, and now, with my present extreme protocols, I've only had one death in many years, (other than fry) and that reduced me to 13 from 14 seahorses, barbs and abs.
Whether or not this is of any help to pipefish keepers I just don't know, but being they are basically a close cousin to seahorses it might be worth considering.

Any procedure for bleaching the eggs? Also how u add h2o2 to the nauplii? Dont they die?

Another thing iv noticed is that the salt lake ones hatch in 12hrs, but the OSI ones take 20-24hrs to completely hatch.

Is it possible that the lfs sold me expiered eggs loose? As he did not tell me the expiery. What do I do?

 

[rayjay]

From http://www.marinebreeder.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=144&t=6664

By Dan Underwood of seahorsesource.com
Artemia come preloaded with bacteria. The hatching of cysts releases metabolites in the water and is the perfect breeding ground for heterotrophic bacteria. Virtually all hatches of artemia will have some bacteria including Vibrio's and other potentially pathogenic bacteria. The key is negate this as much as possible.

First one should always use decapsulated cysts. Decapping achieves 2 primary goals. First it reduces bacterial counts on the cysts. Second it increases the nutritional content of newly hatched artemia as it takes less energy to hatch. *DAN NO LONGER DOES THIS: SEE LINK BELOW

Never use old tank water that is already inoculated with bacteria. Always use new clean seawater. If old water must be used, it should be sterilized before use.

Containers and equipment should be cleaned and sterilized between uses.

Rinse cysts extremely well with tap water before placing in the hatching vessel.

Once the cysts begin hatching, we take down the hatching vessel and rinse all the cysts and artemia for several minutes under tap water, sterilize the cone and restart the hatch. This reduces the amount of metabolites in the container and gives a clean environment again.

Once the hatch is complete, we take down the hatch and rinse again for several minutes under tap water and then sterilize the hatch with peroxide at 8000 mg/L for 5 minutes. It is then rinsed again. If you are going to feed newly hatched it should be fed immediately or stored in the refrigerator where it slows the metabolism of the nauplii and slows down most bacterial growth.

We don't like using newly hatched and prefer to enrich and feed out enriched artemia. Our own observations are that fry and dwarfs have higher survival using enriched artemia than newly hatched. This could be in part that we use different enrichment's, thus has a better and varied nutritional profile or it could be as I suspect that seahorses digest Instar II and Instar III artemia easier.

For growing out and enriching the artemia, we place it in a sterile 2 gallon container with new saltwater and preferably a live algae such as T. iso, tetraselmis or a mix of algae. Artemia are unable to feed until they reach Instar II which can be anywhere from 8 to 12 hours post hatch. Since they don't all hatch at the same time, the early hatchers are able to feed. There is also some evidence that some live algae can have a probiotic or antibiotic effect. After 12 hours, we take down the vessel, rinse the artemia again under tap water, sterilize the container and restart it. Now we add enrichments and allow it to go for another 12 hours. At the end of this we take about half of the artemia rinse it under tap and feed out part of it and store the extra in the refrigerator until the next feeding. The remainder of the artemia that is enriching is taken down later in the day when we need it and it continues to enrich until it is needed.

Dan used to recommend decapping but now doesn't do it for his own use.
See this thread here: http://forum.seahorse.org/index.php?showtopic=49762&hl=peroxide+artemia

Now as to buying artemia cysts, it pays IMO to research sources. I personally buy from Brine Shrimp Direct. They ship all around the world.
Artemia cysts come in various levels of hatch rate and good sites like BSD offer choices which vary in price with the highest hatch rate commanding the highest price.
I personally use the best grade always, but many people are satisfied with the cheapest.
I've never done any testing to see for sure which way gives best value but anecdotally over the years I've made myself believe that the top hatch rate is best.
I've come across LFSs that have packaging without the % hatch rate on the container but tell people they are Premium Grade or Grade A which is almost as good, but in fact the cysts are usually economy type with the lowest hatch rate.
Cysts from different companies may also be collected from different sources and that too can affect how LONG it takes to hatch when hatching conditions are similar.
Then too, method of storage is important as some stores have the cysts on shelves or hooks when in fact they should be stored in a refrigerator.
I buy 1 pound cans of premium cysts and store them in the freezer where they can remain for years. I take out a quantity that I need for about a month and store them in the fridge, removing just what I need at each hatch time.
To hatch, I hydrate the cysts and then add bleach to sterilize. I used to use about 4ml per litre and aerate for 30 minutes but now I add about 30 ml and aerate for about 5 minutes. Then I rinse well under cold water tap and then add to my hatch water of 1.018.
For me, I get about half hatched in a day or so but usually I leave it for two days because I'm hatching at 68°F (20°C) or colder which is the normal temp in my basement in summer. I used to heat the cultures but I found that I had more bacteria growth in the cultures and in my growout containers when at 80°F so I stopped. Now it takes me 8 weeks to get artemia to the stage they are producing live nauplii but I end up with much higher overall yields.
My separation procedure is a bit different that what others do. I first let the culture sit for five minutes and then I siphon off from the bottle cap end of the inverted pop bottle until the floating cyst remains are just going to be siphoned. I then wash out the cyst remains and return the culture to the bottle and then sterilize with peroxide for five minutes. Let sit for five for settlement of unhatched cysts and then siphon off from ABOVE those cysts just down until you are going to siphon unhatched ones up. Give a good rinse and then move to enrichment process or growout container.
Sometimes I then add new water to the remaining unhatched cysts and let go another day and more will hatch out.
Sorry for being so "wordy" but I've never learned how to say something in just a few words and now I'm too old to learn anyway.

 

[nanomania]

From http://www.marinebreeder.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=144&t=6664

By Dan Underwood of seahorsesource.com
Artemia come preloaded with bacteria. The hatching of cysts releases metabolites in the water and is the perfect breeding ground for heterotrophic bacteria. Virtually all hatches of artemia will have some bacteria including Vibrio's and other potentially pathogenic bacteria. The key is negate this as much as possible.

First one should always use decapsulated cysts. Decapping achieves 2 primary goals. First it reduces bacterial counts on the cysts. Second it increases the nutritional content of newly hatched artemia as it takes less energy to hatch. *DAN NO LONGER DOES THIS: SEE LINK BELOW

Never use old tank water that is already inoculated with bacteria. Always use new clean seawater. If old water must be used, it should be sterilized before use.

Containers and equipment should be cleaned and sterilized between uses.

Rinse cysts extremely well with tap water before placing in the hatching vessel.

Once the cysts begin hatching, we take down the hatching vessel and rinse all the cysts and artemia for several minutes under tap water, sterilize the cone and restart the hatch. This reduces the amount of metabolites in the container and gives a clean environment again.

Once the hatch is complete, we take down the hatch and rinse again for several minutes under tap water and then sterilize the hatch with peroxide at 8000 mg/L for 5 minutes. It is then rinsed again. If you are going to feed newly hatched it should be fed immediately or stored in the refrigerator where it slows the metabolism of the nauplii and slows down most bacterial growth.

We don't like using newly hatched and prefer to enrich and feed out enriched artemia. Our own observations are that fry and dwarfs have higher survival using enriched artemia than newly hatched. This could be in part that we use different enrichment's, thus has a better and varied nutritional profile or it could be as I suspect that seahorses digest Instar II and Instar III artemia easier.

For growing out and enriching the artemia, we place it in a sterile 2 gallon container with new saltwater and preferably a live algae such as T. iso, tetraselmis or a mix of algae. Artemia are unable to feed until they reach Instar II which can be anywhere from 8 to 12 hours post hatch. Since they don't all hatch at the same time, the early hatchers are able to feed. There is also some evidence that some live algae can have a probiotic or antibiotic effect. After 12 hours, we take down the vessel, rinse the artemia again under tap water, sterilize the container and restart it. Now we add enrichments and allow it to go for another 12 hours. At the end of this we take about half of the artemia rinse it under tap and feed out part of it and store the extra in the refrigerator until the next feeding. The remainder of the artemia that is enriching is taken down later in the day when we need it and it continues to enrich until it is needed.

Dan used to recommend decapping but now doesn't do it for his own use.
See this thread here: http://forum.seahorse.org/index.php?showtopic=49762&hl=peroxide+artemia

Now as to buying artemia cysts, it pays IMO to research sources. I personally buy from Brine Shrimp Direct. They ship all around the world.
Artemia cysts come in various levels of hatch rate and good sites like BSD offer choices which vary in price with the highest hatch rate commanding the highest price.
I personally use the best grade always, but many people are satisfied with the cheapest.
I've never done any testing to see for sure which way gives best value but anecdotally over the years I've made myself believe that the top hatch rate is best.
I've come across LFSs that have packaging without the % hatch rate on the container but tell people they are Premium Grade or Grade A which is almost as good, but in fact the cysts are usually economy type with the lowest hatch rate.
Cysts from different companies may also be collected from different sources and that too can affect how LONG it takes to hatch when hatching conditions are similar.
Then too, method of storage is important as some stores have the cysts on shelves or hooks when in fact they should be stored in a refrigerator.
I buy 1 pound cans of premium cysts and store them in the freezer where they can remain for years. I take out a quantity that I need for about a month and store them in the fridge, removing just what I need at each hatch time.
To hatch, I hydrate the cysts and then add bleach to sterilize. I used to use about 4ml per litre and aerate for 30 minutes but now I add about 30 ml and aerate for about 5 minutes. Then I rinse well under cold water tap and then add to my hatch water of 1.018.
For me, I get about half hatched in a day or so but usually I leave it for two days because I'm hatching at 68°F (20°C) or colder which is the normal temp in my basement in summer. I used to heat the cultures but I found that I had more bacteria growth in the cultures and in my growout containers when at 80°F so I stopped. Now it takes me 8 weeks to get artemia to the stage they are producing live nauplii but I end up with much higher overall yields.
My separation procedure is a bit different that what others do. I first let the culture sit for five minutes and then I siphon off from the bottle cap end of the inverted pop bottle until the floating cyst remains are just going to be siphoned. I then wash out the cyst remains and return the culture to the bottle and then sterilize with peroxide for five minutes. Let sit for five for settlement of unhatched cysts and then siphon off from ABOVE those cysts just down until you are going to siphon unhatched ones up. Give a good rinse and then move to enrichment process or growout container.
Sometimes I then add new water to the remaining unhatched cysts and let go another day and more will hatch out.
Sorry for being so "wordy" but I've never learned how to say something in just a few words and now I'm too old to learn anyway.

Wow.. thats really in detailnand a long proceedure. Ill try it.