Suddenly add 20 fish to Established tank

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brandon429

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because its not a risk we think. calculated based on thousands of runs, all that open coral and clean water.

the tank is as aged and matured as possible, its actually helpful in reefing to get snippets of info like this-advances reef tank design and procedure even just one viable test



a true test is here because those rings take many days to self seed. if the corals act fine, water is clear, fish distributed, snails and inverts distributed vs taxi up, I promise this is powerful science here. +20 fish is indeed new T

that's most Ive seen. Even oxygen is being quite taxed here, this is a valid valid reefing test but ran in a way as not to be flippant. the system itself with an aged sandbed is commanding o2 like 20 more fish. this tank will rise to meet its needs I bet, we will know by water clarity and collective coral behavior Im certain. fascinating thread.

we can use literally everything in that tank as a living visual meter for nh3 = new cycling science rules.


taxing surface area like this is so 2021. what you have just done is awesome in 2021 and illegal in 1997 at the same time.
 
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Tou

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because its not a risk we think. calculated based on thousands of runs, all that open coral and clean water.

the tank is as aged and matured as possible, its actually helpful in reefing to get snippets of info like this-advances reef tank design and procedure even just one viable test



a true test is here because those rings take many days to self seed. if the corals act fine, water is clear, fish distributed, snails and inverts distributed vs taxi up, I promise this is powerful science here. 20 fish is indeed new T

that's most Ive seen. Even oxygen is being quite taxed here, this is a valid valid reefing test but ran in a way as not to be flippant. the system itself with an aged sandbed is commanding o2 like 20 more fish. this tank will rise to meet its needs I bet, we will know by water clarity and collective coral behavior Im certain. fascinating thread.

So far is been promising, everything still normal for now. *Finger Crossed*
 

brandon429

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hey can u wait till first sign of distress for the prime

I promise it wont all crash in 2 mins it takes a few hours and cloudy water is the absolute bottom line, it cannot happen in cleanwater.

*Randy pointed out already that ammonia itself doesn't cause the clouding/ its the associated bacteria spike from the + nutrients and or loss of microbenthics up the chain first, but either way ammonia events are cloud associated solidly (my claim from crash studies)
 
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brandon429

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ok perfect, a test is on for surface area mechanics in reefing. I claim we cannot source one single article on the matter you are testing, pure wild west science is happening live time. you outta twitch stream that bad boy you'd make six dollars from internet cycling hacks

You have asked of your surface area that which is claimed impossible by 100% of pollees


that makes for excellent odds.

lack of articles is why they'd vote that way :)
b
a bazillion articles exist for wastewater surface area mechanics, limnology and lake studies, just not reef tanks. I bet oceanic data exists for some areas, but not reef tanks. we're right in the void.
 

brandon429

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:)



this kind of work has implication in tank move threads, ammonia emergency threads, upgrade and downgrade threads etc. surface area prediction and outcome is just a big deal in reefing as it also affects market investments at the same time (bottle bac is nearly always sold for this kind of work, but we think not needed). bac hasn't been used yet, we maximized what's free that's part of the test too.

if your tank was any newer, or bare bottom w few rocks this might not have felt as confident but that above is one aged, packed, matured out tank. immediately upon emission ammonia will be blown against a rock or sand, without delay.

if current slowed though that'd be different. set to normal reef currents, excellence.

Im interested to know chemically if oxygen is the limiting factor or the nh3, tough call. ive never seen oxygen test data on reef tanks before the other day to know any trending. ammonia trending runs multiple industries and already has charts dedicated to aquariums, its really being tested here for sure. very neat.

*if o2 is limited, not adding bac worked out conveniently. They scrub more of it
 
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:)



this kind of work has implication in tank move threads, ammonia emergency threads, upgrade and downgrade threads etc. surface area prediction and outcome is just a big deal in reefing as it also affects market investments at the same time. bac hasn't been used yet, we maximized what's free that's part of the test too.

if your tank was any newer, or bare bottom this might not have felt as confident but that above is one aged, packed, matured out tank. immediately upon emission ammonia will be blown against a rock or sand, without delay.

if current slowed though that'd be different. set to normal reef currents, excellence.

Im interested to know chemically if oxygen is the limiting factor or the nh3, tough call. ive never seen oxygen test data on reef tanks before the other day to know any trending. ammonia trending runs multiple industries and already has charts dedicated to aquariums, its really being tested here for sure. very neat.

*if o2 is limited, not adding bac worked out conveniently. They scrub more of it

Honesty, that's too advanced for me to understand haha. All I can chip in are how my tank is doing . You can put together the data.
 

mickeysreef <*))))<

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just wondering what data are you planning on using? do you have some meter or something hooked up? visual observations arent going to amount to much. will you be taking test samples of water every few hours or?
 
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brandon429

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sounds crazy but I claim our senses beat titration ammonia kits. Our test kits tend to report free ammonia in most tanks, threads show, we never know when they're right.

five years of tank cycling, all tanks, with no testing:

The sole meter for every tank practiced there is visual cycle cuing. no tests accepted actually, they mislead too much and make surface area look unable. we accept test kits as correct in one post, wildly off base in others

*I truly think we need to assess any oxygen issues by checking the tank late at night and then once very early in the morning for changes in behavior* set a wake up alarm lol really


this is the lowest o2 period for any tank/overnite and the 4 am zone


the corals will be closed, but we want to see if fish are distributed evenly top to bottom vs hovering and any clouding. have some offsets for o2 available as backup if possible, such as a cheap bubbler etc if possible or a water change if needed.

Prime w not help w o2 at all. everyone concerns over nh3 but I bet the 02 factors here as well.

*part of the benefit in these surface area studies is we can learn to let go of one feared param and handle the others that may matter more. Oxygen is what to prepare for, not ammonia in my strongest opinion.
*if this tank runs hours normally until 3 am then the animals move to the top, o2 will be suspect not ammonia. if theres a delay that's oxygen issues I really think, and adding dosers wont help it may hurt, you'd need increased water motion or exchange. peroxide will boost o2 but it instantly kills lysmata, go for exchange if needed or bubbling.


how the tank smells is a very handy indicator of free ammonia, be smelling it from the top no joke you'll pick up on any changes if any.

*few people are ever going to test their bioload in this way, its such valuable info for all the lesser jobs. all poll takers will agree adding even 4 fish would be pushing it. this helps frame a big picture perspective.

waste acid conditions follow increased bioloading, the tank will need better water change exchanges to keep stasis
 
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mickeysreef <*))))<

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i agree that there is value in observational data but it is very limited as it is subjective and there can be many explanations for a single event. as far as far ranging tests from post to post, a lot of that has to do with method and kit quality, most reefers are not scientist, some are, but most arent. and our kits are usually hobby grade and limited. you mentioned yourself o2 would be good to measure. standard api kit doesnt come with anything like that



prefer a few objective data points that can be nailed down.
 

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Hi Reefers
I need some advice from experts here.
So my 65 gallon tank is about 2 years old and was housing 4 fish and around 20+ anemone.
Recently I converted into a clownfish harem by adding 20 clownfish all at one time. Suppose 20 is a good number for them not to fight.

Right now everything is doing great, I am checking water everyday but I am bit concerned about ammonia spike since I added So many fish at one go.

My question is if ammonia spike happens because my bacterial can't handle the bioload what should I do?
-Should I buy a bacterial in a bottle and just pour it in? I am looking at either DR. Tims one and only or instant ocean bio spira.
-Is it a good idea to pour those bacterial into an already established tank?
-if I do more frequent water change, will the bacteria start to balance out the bio load on its own?

Also any other good recommendation on product for bacterial in a bottle or idea on how to deal with this situation?
I am all ears and here to learn.
Thank you all
Sounds fun, wait for ammonia to be present and do a water change, also add bacteria as this will help the process, maybe run your refugium longer if you have one. Good luck
 

brandon429

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@Tou whats the destiny for these fish/are they being housed here permanently? very interesting

it is 100% prudent to do a decent water change with water prepped now and circulated well, tonite about 8 ish that will help ensure first safe sendoff into -oxygen photoperiod and its just good practice for bringing up variables we are predicting rather than knowing as fact in the experiment.



increased water changes would be needed for any reef about to take on this much fish and feed output, true sandbed eutrophication/separate giant thread applies if they're to be left in as a tax long term. Im seeing five impacts from them so far unrelated to raw ammonia

the water change does not invalidate the test, a single water change would do nothing for impending ammonia doom. its collectively a good idea to exchange some, because 20 is a huge amount of fish and its the first of many cpr exchanges.

No doser you could possibly add will help this, only work predictively. there might be an oxygenating liquid somehow that carries you, but I don't know what it is and now isn't the time for double experiment. the water change is 100% right and timed well by 8 pm for sure.

could you keep them in here long term if you kept up whole waste removal and increased water changes?

Yes, ive seen lfs do it.

that reef sure is nice and balanced, i'd hate to see it go eutrophic from the carried load. if you change water and remove whole waste buildup from the top layer you can carry some fish in that reef, for sure. fish disease risk seems amplified though, independent from nh3. even if those are quarantined and this tank was fallow, the crowding alone if Im not mistaken increases bacterial risk because the bioload by rule carries a mix of new degrading bacteria and the oxygen is heavily shared now, esp at night. its a risk if any degree of whole waste is allowed to gain and stay in the corners/crevices etc.

*the real test isn't how long they sit there before a crash. its us being able to assemble ordered steps, no testing kits involved, that CPR's the tank before you need it. if ammonia was ever lacking we think it would crash fast, not hours or days later that's another param building up or depleting.

I truly think you should lightly bubble some air in there from a stone and deal with the salt creep wipe off, first night.

just a low bubbling rate nothing to splash ugly. a slow rising column of multi air bubbles is specifically more efficient than a powerhead of much more speed aiming up, the surface boil by bubbles is amplified greatly.

this action is specifically what an aquaculture facility would do in preps for non nh3 risks. they would select bubbling over water pumps in 100% of high bioload suspect oxygen instances.
 
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@Tou whats the destiny for these fish/are they being housed here permanently? very interesting

it is 100% prudent to do a decent water change with water prepped now and circulated well, tonite about 8 ish that will help ensure first safe sendoff into - -oxygen photoperiod and its just good practice for evening out variables we are predicting rather than knowing as fact in the experiment.

increased water changes would be needed for any reef about to take on this much fish and feed output, true sandbed eutrophication/separate giant thread applies if they're to be left in as a tax long term. Im seeing five impacts from them so far unrelated to raw ammonia

the water change does not invalidate the test, a single water change would do nothing for impending ammonia doom. its collectively a good idea to exchange some, because 20 is a huge amount of fish tho.

Hi Brandon
I am placing them in the tank permanently. Well when it comes to water change I avoid doing it . Because I am running chaeto and algae scrubber to get the nutrients out and doing b-inoic two party and trace element dosing.
Haven't change water for 2 months haha
 
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brandon429

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hey so you have chaeto and in addition more algae from a scrubber we can light all night as an offset? two sources of photosynthesis at night/wow that's very helpful here. all of this aligns for such a very helpful test for reefing.

an article or formal written reference does not exist for what is currently underway, simple as that.
 
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hey so you have chaeto and in addition more algae from a scrubber we can light all night as an offset? two sources of photosynthesis at night/wow that's very helpful here. all of this aligns for such a very helpful test for reefing.

an article or formal written reference does not exist for what is currently underway, simple as that.
Well because my tank is All in one with only back chamber.
So I have a HOB FIJI Refugium with chaeto, but it does not provide enough nutrients export. So I added addition Santa Monica Drop algae scrubber and doing overlapping rotation with lights off rest period for algaes. But yea during night time they are both on so my PH doesn't swing at all. Sits at 8.4ish 24/7.
 

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@brandon429 I have to admire your ability to convince people that their tank won't crash and everything won't die. You are becoming a pro at it.

I agree that Tou will be fine. If I can remove my 25-30+ adult cichlid tanks sandbed in a move without a toxic ammonia event then anyone with sufficient surface area can make much larger changes to bioload without a crash than anyone in 2010 would have risked or thought possible.

I would love to do experiments of bioload vs surface area to put numbers behind these new concepts but fish respiration and eating habits are hard to match. Either way, taking it easy, observing, reducing feeding for first couple days and having supplies on hand to correct is much cheaper than a bottle of bacteria.
 
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