Sulfur Denitrator questions.

[Rst]

Sorry about missing this and thanks for the bump.
I would say baby steps, take your time, try 22ml/min on the kameor then 24 and let it settle in at those set points for a day or two then check your Apex logs to see where you're settled in at for run times. Don't even worry about what your nitrate on the effluent is at this point. Try to get it at a nice, slow flow rate that keeps you anoxic. Let the bacteria population build up and do their job once they're well established. You shouldn't have to touch anything for the most part.
I use to use the fx-stp and never really calibrated it. It was more set results. The number was always just a reference and I didn't expect it to be precisely calibrated. It doesn't matter if 20 is 20 and 30 is 30 (Plus that's one less thing to have to calibrate all the time). I could get a year out of one tube on the Kamoer. I'll get 2 months on the versa tube.
As far as the nitrogen gas that builds up inside of the reactor, I pull my effluent out of the top lid of the reactor. So every time a gas bubble develops it automatically clears itself through the effluent. I don't have to touch my reactor at all and it never builds up gas anymore. This is why if you look at my picture above, you'll see that my effluent from the reactor is actually plugged with an RO fitting.

Sean, my fix-stp2 pump’s flow setpt has stayed fixed at 20ml/min. During this short time of trying your method, my OFF times still remains at 11mins and hasn’t changed at all. I would really like to find a way to lower my OFF times? What’s different are my ON times that have been slowly increasing. My ON times started at 44mins and are now just over 62mins.

I will try slowly adjusting my setpt flow up slightly every couple of days as per your advice.

Appreciate your help.

 

[14 foot reef]

Sean, my fix-stp2 pump’s flow setpt has stayed fixed at 20ml/min. During this short time of trying your method, my OFF times still remains at 11mins and hasn’t changed at all. I would really like to find a way to lower my OFF times? What’s different are my ON times that have been slowly increasing. My ON times started at 44mins and are now just over 62mins.

I will try slowly adjusting my setpt flow up slightly every couple of days as per your advice.

Appreciate your help.

@Rst

What day are you on running the Sulfur Denitrater ?

 

[Rst]

@Rst

What day are you on running the Sulfur Denitrater ?

Started the orp method on Friday night. So currently tonight Sunday is completion of day 2. But before this, I have been using the manual method of measuring my effluent nitrate focusing on keeping the effluent nitrate below 2 - 4ppm and changing the effluent flow based on this level. Currently my display tank nitrate is last measured at 10.4ppm. I have been using the manual method starting way back in July this year. Since then my nitrates have dropped from 80 to 10ppm.

 

[MikeTheNewbie]

I ran 200ml per hour through mine for a on the fly water change. Ran about 20 gallons total water through it, then dialed down flow to 20 ml per min for 2 days, now the Kamoer doser is set at 4ml per min

I did not notice any yellow dust collect on my pre-filter see photo

I just realized that your reactor has a nice pre-filter. I searched online but couldn't find replacements for the filter. Do you know their name or where to get them?
Looks like you are using an AquaMaxx TS-3 which appears to be sold at BRS but I couldn't find info on the prefilter or the replacement floss.
Thanks

 

[14 foot reef]

I just realized that your reactor has a nice pre-filter. I searched online but couldn't find replacements for the filter. Do you know their name or where to get them?
Looks like you are using an AquaMaxx TS-3 which appears to be sold at BRS but I couldn't find info on the prefilter or the replacement floss.
Thanks

They use an odd pad kinda rolled up to fit in.

I found it better and cheaper to change out to regular filter floss. I buy huge boxes from amazon - its basically free considering how long it last me for my 3 - 7" filter cups and this little pre-filter

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[MikeTheNewbie]

That is good to know, thanks. Now I just need to find that kind of inline filter casing. I've been trying with those clear blue 10" RO filters with 10" sediment filter but they are not working. I keep getting bubbles. I've tried 2 different canisters but they don't appear to work on a pull setup :(

 

[MikeTheNewbie]

Push or pull?

I went back to see the pictures on this thread but couldn't realize if people were pushing water or pulling it.
I've read recommendations for using a dosing pump to pull water out of the effluent line rather than pushing it into the reactor intake. I think this is mostly tied to reducing pressure inside the reactor.

I see new and established denitrators here could you share your approach? (What type of pump and whether it is placed at the intake or at the output of the reactor?

Thanks everyone!

 

[Sean Clark]

Push or pull?

I went back to see the pictures on this thread but couldn't realize if people were pushing water or pulling it.
I've read recommendations for using a dosing pump to pull water out of the effluent line rather than pushing it into the reactor intake. I think this is mostly tied to reducing pressure inside the reactor.

I see new and established denitrators here could you share your approach? (What type of pump and whether it is placed at the intake or at the output of the reactor?

Thanks everyone!

Depends... :confounded-face:
I would think pushing eliminates the chance of the reactor circulation pump from getting air locked as nitrogen gas builds up inside. The water on the input side is almost guaranteed to be gas free and will always help purge the gas through the circulation pump.

Pulling through would be ok if your using a peristaltic pump that can handle the gas that will wind up in the effluent.

Pulling through is the only option if you are using a gravity feed.

Pushing with a peristaltic pump is the lower maintenance option if you can't automatically bleed the gas off.

Kamoer fx-stp for the win. I currently use a versa.

 

[MikeTheNewbie]

After finally figuring out how to make my reactor stop sucking air out of my filter quick connect fittings my ORP has been steadily decreasing from around 290 to around -116 over the past day. Nitrate in the display tank is 70 ppm and I got 62 ppm at the affluent.

Does that look like things are on the right track?

I realized I got a few vials of prodibio, I wonder if adding those could be of any help

I couldn't find the bacteria strands contained in prodibio though.

Thanks for the help!

 

[MikeTheNewbie]

It is a well known fact the when using a ORP probe, it won't display any negative orp values. Very annoying. One workaround can be found on the Neptune Forum Gear under AquaBus Modules, Probes, and Breakout Boxes. Look for a thread "Question: Negative ORP Reading dated Jan25,2017". A second workaround is the route I took, attach you ORP probe to apex module, then for to Apex "Inputs" for the probe and change it to PH2. Now all negative orp values measured will be displayed as a pH >7. All positive orp values measured will be displayed as <7. See my post above for the conversion table to convert pH to ORP values. It is exactly equivalent.

Yes the maximum pH that can be used in Apex system is 10.99pH

I do not use a DOS to control the flow rate on my Sulfur reactor. Instead I use the Kameor FX-STP pump and simply set it to the ml/min I want. Note that it pulls the effluent thru the reactor at the reactor's output.

Hope that helps, Ron

Hi Ron @Rst , I'm following your method for measuring ORP as pH, using an ORP probe set up as a pH probe on a PM1 module.
The measurement went up to 10 but then it mysteriously stopped exactly at 10. It looks to me like more Neptune shenanigans. What do you think?

I have an actual pH probe connected to the Apex PH2 input and that one reads up to 13.4 (I use it for Kalkwasser).

Could it be that the pH on the base unit is limited to 13.4 while on PM1 modules it is limited to 10?

It doesn't make sense to me but that's what I'm seeing :S

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Rst]

Hi Ron @Rst , I'm following your method for measuring ORP as pH, using an ORP probe set up as a pH probe on a PM1 module.
The measurement went up to 10 but then it mysteriously stopped exactly at 10. It looks to me like more Neptune shenanigans. What do you think?

I have an actual pH probe connected to the Apex PH2 input and that one reads up to 13.4 (I use it for Kalkwasser).

Could it be that the pH on the base unit is limited to 13.4 while on PM1 modules it is limited to 10?

It doesn't make sense to me but that's what I'm seeing :S

Thanks for the advice!

Hi Ron @Rst , I'm following your method for measuring ORP as pH, using an ORP probe set up as a pH probe on a PM1 module.
The measurement went up to 10 but then it mysteriously stopped exactly at 10. It looks to me like more Neptune shenanigans. What do you think?

On my PM1, my ORP probe displays equivalent pH values well past 13. But if I try to test the probe’s Apex variable’s label(I changed my assigned name to pHorp) and then tried to use it in a “if pHorp > 11 then ON” , apex refuses to save it by giving an coding error. (If pHorp > 10.99 works fine)

I have an actual pH probe connected to the Apex PH2 input and that one reads up to 13.4 (I use it for Kalkwasser).

Could it be that the pH on the base unit is limited to 13.4 while on PM1 modules it is limited to 10?

It doesn't make sense to me but that's what I'm seeing :S

Thanks for the advice!

What kind of probe do you have attached to your PM1? ORP or PH probe? What did you set your Apex input to for this probe? PH or ORP?

Currently my ORP probe shows a pH of 10.2 inside my Sulphur reactor and in the past has shown as high as 13.1

Ron

 

[MikeTheNewbie]

On my PM1, my ORP probe displays equivalent pH values well past 13. But if I try to test the probe’s Apex variable’s label(I changed my assigned name to pHorp) and then tried to use it in a “if pHorp > 11 then ON” , apex refuses to save it by giving an coding error. (If pHorp > 10.99 works fine)

What kind of probe do you have attached to your PM1? ORP or PH probe? What did you set your Apex input to for this probe? PH or ORP?

Currently my ORP probe shows a pH of 10.2 inside my Sulphur reactor and in the past has shown as high as 13.1

Ron

I'm using Neptune's ORP probe (red) attached to the PM1 and reading the PM1's pH input value. The temperature and ORP are disabled.

I've experienced the pH alarm limit of 10.90 on the Apex main unit but the actual max level displayed by Apex is 13.4.

I tried swapping the ORP probe from the PM1 with the pH probe on the Apex main unit and the values follow the probe so it looks like it's not the PM1 but the probe reaching its limit. Or maybe the probe is working OK and the sulfur reactor really reached a point of stability exactly at 10 :flushed-face:

 

[14 foot reef]

Correct, if your water is too stagnant the ORP will drop too low and the reactor will start to produce hydrogen sulfide and smell like rotten eggs. You don't want that to happen. If it does happen, it's not the end of the world. Just turn the flow up to raise the ORP.
Apex does not report negative orp values. It'll drop to zero and then stay at zero. Even when it's negative. You have to reverse the polarity on the orp probe to get a negative number but you also have to remember it's going to look like a positive number. I have a whole write up on this on apex form here My negative orp for Apex instructions.
Your numbers are likely correct and will keep falling but you will need to reverse the polarity to keep going down this rabbit hole.

Love this forum !!!! Would never have known I could switch the polarity on my ORP probe and read an accurate negative ORP in my Sulfur denitrater. It works perfect, slowing down to 40ml per minute lowered orp to -370. So I increased my ml to 115ml / min and I am settled into a nice -250 MV in the reactor.
Thanks to this post

Display and control your negative ORP values as positive ORP values within the Apex dashboard.

Display and control your negative ORP values as positive ORP values within the Apex dashboard. A lot of people want to interface their anoxic fluid readings with their Apex controller. Typically this would be controlled via an ORP type controller that is capable of displaying and/or...

forum.neptunesystems.com

Bravo Reef2Reef for having such a great resource and thanks to all the members contributing and sharing their knowledge

 

[jman930]

What is the sweet spot for the ORP? Mine fluctuates between -130 to -180 using a 10ml per min speed. If I go much slower the gas buildup cannot exit the reactor without a significant pressure build up which pushes a lot of water out at one time.


Still struggling to get zero output and have been using the reactor for weeks.

 

[jman930]

Update:

I was able to slow the drip down to 5ml and my ORP over night went down to the -300’s. I immediately tested and was happy to report 0 coming from the effluent. So what did I do? I increased the flow and messed it all up! I increased it from 5 to 15ml which for some reason I thought wouldn't be too much but I was wrong. ORP rose up to the -240’s and my next test was assumingely high in nitrite. Dropped it back down to 5ml and the next day I was back in the -300’s. I tested again and the nitrates were in the 15-20 range. Not zero but going in the right direction.

At this point I either need more sulfur (currently have about 1.5 gallons) to allow for higher flow or I need to wait until my ORP gets to the -400’s before I try to increase the flow.

Any advice is welcome!

 

[14 foot reef]

Update:

I was able to slow the drip down to 5ml and my ORP over night went down to the -300’s. I immediately tested and was happy to report 0 coming from the effluent. So what did I do? I increased the flow and messed it all up! I increased it from 5 to 15ml which for some reason I thought wouldn't be too much but I was wrong. ORP rose up to the -240’s and my next test was assumingely high in nitrite. Dropped it back down to 5ml and the next day I was back in the -300’s. I tested again and the nitrates were in the 15-20 range. Not zero but going in the right direction.

At this point I either need more sulfur (currently have about 1.5 gallons) to allow for higher flow or I need to wait until my ORP gets to the -400’s before I try to increase the flow.

Any advice is welcome!

I'll let others chime in here, but I think running in the -300's is a little low where you might be producing sulfur gas. I thought I had read between -200 to -250 at the lowest you wanted to go to avoid sulfur gas production.
I try to pin mine at the lowest at -200.
Again, will let others with more experience on this chime in. I think if you let it run at around -200 for a couple of days you would find your numbers settling out to the 5ppm area. Just my findings from my short 3-4 months running mine. My Apex is reversed polarity so it can read the negative number as positive because Apex doesn't read negative, it stops at Zero, that's why you see a positive number represented on the screen

 

[Fliper]

I have had out of control No3 for quite a while now, I feed heavy and have a big bio load.. so I decided to try out a sulfur Denitrator.

This came online 12 days ago. At first I was pumping 260ml/min through the reactor…

ORP dropped down to -150 by day 5.

Then it rose back to -90 on Day 7.

No3 out of the effluent was still reading the same as the tank water (130ppm… yikes I know).

So on Day 8, I dropped the flow rate to 80ml/min.. ORP dropped back to -160… and on day 10 the effluent registered 3.2ppm vs 130ppm in the tank…

Unfortunately, also on Day 8… I had a couple of SPS RTN… which can’t be a coincidence.

I raised the flow rate back to 260ml/min (from my calculations, this is the correct flow rate to set at.

Questions

* I really haven’t seen No3 in the tank water start to change yet. I figured at this rate, it’s about 30 gallons a day that is getting cycled through the reactor, the total system volume is about 900 gallons, but surely if effluent is that low I would start seeing some impact by now?

* Now on Day 12, the RTN issues seem to have stabilized. What could have cause this in the first place?

* ORP in the reactor is hovering around -150, now the media is starting to clump, and then air bubbles push the media up in the reactor, it then touches the ORP probe and the value drops down to -230… I’m pretty sure it’s a false reading as eventually the media drops back down and the ORP value comes back to -150… why is the media clumping, and should/can I do something to prevent it? (Pics of the clumping attached)

This reactor has WAY too much sulfur in it. You are going to kill your fish.

 

[BZOFIQ]

This reactor has WAY too much sulfur in it. You are going to kill your fish.

Please elaborate

 

[Fliper]

Please elaborate

Sure! If your sulfur reactor has too much sulfur, you will (can I should say) create hydrogen Sulfide (gas - it’s toxic and it will kill your fish)

It smells like rotten eggs. My reactor has about 25% sulfur prills and the rest is full of aragonite (you can use reborn, crushed coral, whatever - to increase the alkalinity) Sulfur reactors will plummet your alkalinity (it’s the hydrogen ions that do this when the nitrates are stripped of their oxygen) and you are going to want to buffer this. Or, dose buffer (but keep an eye on your alkalinity - that’s my point).

1. You should also flush the reactor for 48hrs. You did that (your flow rate was really high)

2. Then slow your drip rate to 1 drop per second. Wait 48hrs and test the affluent.

3. If it’s 0, increase the flow rate (2-3ml per minute) and wait another 48hrs.

Repeat this process until you tank and the affluent’s nitrates match. If your nitrates are higher than you’d like them to be at this time - then add more pellets (about 1/4 liter or so).

But…if you still have nitrates when you test (after your 48hr wait period) then leave the reactor alone for another 48hrs. Repeat!

From your comment, you went too fast. This process takes about 2 months. Once you are done, the affluent will be coming out of your reactor at about 50 - 75ml per min. I recommend a dosing pump so you can be accurate with your flow rate increases.

Go easy on the sulfur. You can always add more if your nitrates aren’t where you want them to be 2 months from now. But too much sulfur can be deadly.

Now, I did see your flow rates we’re always high - which would prevent gas from being created, but too high of a flow rate will also prevent the reactor from doing what you want it to do.

 

[BZOFIQ]

Thank you.

Can you please clarify below, I feel like something is missing ... are we trying to match affluent with tank water?

3. If it’s 0, increase the flow rate (2-3ml per minute) and wait another 48hrs.

Repeat this process until you tank and the affluent’s nitrates match. If your nitrates are higher than you’d like them to be at this time - then add more pellets (about 1/4 liter or so).

But…if you still have nitrates when you test (after your 48hr wait period) then leave the reactor alone for another 48hrs. Repeat!