Super low salinity from Live Aquaria

[eatbreakfast]

It's well established that lower salinity water holds more oxygen. Oxygen availability helps biological functions and has a therapeutic affect.

Also, lower salinity helps mitigate against dehydration, which also can contribute to stress.

 

[Crashjack]

It's well established that lower salinity water holds more oxygen. Oxygen availability helps biological functions and has a therapeutic affect.

Also, lower salinity helps mitigate against dehydration, which also can contribute to stress.

I couldn't help myself and tried to find some scientific support, showing advantages of lower salinities for marine fish (salinity lower than natural habitats). I could only find the contrary. It is true that lower temperature and lower salinity holds more oxygen. However, I never found where this was ever beneficial when compared to a fish's natural environment. It all pointed back to this excerpt from one of the articles I read:

Morgan and Iwama (1991) reviewed the studies on the metabolic responses of several species of fishes from fresh-, brackish-, and saltwater. They concluded that low metabolic rates are most often associated to the water salinity in which the species are most commonly found and, therefore, most physiologically adapted to, at a particular life stage. This seems to be in agreement with the natural environment in which O. hatcheri and O. bonariensis are distributed. Odontesthes hatcheri occurs in rivers that seem to be poor in minerals (Luchini, 1981; Martty, 1992). In contrast, 0 ppt does not seem to be the usual salinity level encountered in the areas inhabited by O. bonariensis. Pampasic lakes are peculiar by the high content of Na, Cl and other elements (Mac Donagh, 1934; Ringuelet et al. , 1967) and this seems to be also the condition of the ground water in this region (Saravia et al., 1987).

If one was worried about oxygen being deficient to the point of suffocation and the salinity reduction added enough oxygen to remove the deficiency, then a reduction of salinity or temperature, or both, would make sense (you would have nothing to lose). IMHO, the notion of keeping fish at a lower salinity than their natural habitat is an old aquarists' fairy tale, unless done short-term for parasites (hypo salinity) or very short-term (FW dip) also for parasites.

 

[enveetie]

My recent LA order came in at 1.010. The one bag from the FL facility was 1.020. I called them immediately and the rep said salinity drops during shipping. THAT MUCH? Yes, she said, that much. What bull crap. One didn't make it over night.

I didn't realize they would ship over night again for you. Did you have to order anything else or pay for shipping?

 

[iemsparticus]

My recent LA order came in at 1.010. The one bag from the FL facility was 1.020. I called them immediately and the rep said salinity drops during shipping. THAT MUCH? Yes, she said, that much. What bull crap. One didn't make it over night.

I didn't realize they would ship over night again for you. Did you have to order anything else or pay for shipping?

They pay for the shipping to replace DoAs, but only ONCE per order, so you should wait for the two week window you have to request this service, in case another one of your fish also dies.

 

[Crashjack]

They pay for the shipping to replace DoAs, but only ONCE per order, so you should wait for the two week window you have to request this service, in case another one of your fish also dies.

This is what they did for me. Only problem is, if you are raising salinity in a QT, you've got a tougher acclimation. The nice thing is, if something dies after the re-shipment (but within 14 days), you still get a refund.

 

[Lazys Coral House]

I am a retailer and purchase fish every other week which are commonly in the bag for 24 hours. When the fish arrives the PH level in the bag is typically 7.3-7.5. There is also lots of ammonia and salinity is typically pretty low. The fish needs to be removed immediately and put in new saltwater. The way I found to do that is prepare new water before the fish arrives. I fill a 5g bucket with saltwater at a salinity of 1.019. Add aeration and drops of muriatic acid until I reach a PH of 7.5. Once the fish arrives I check the PH of bag and adjust it to closely match by adding a few more drops of muriatic acid if needed. This allows me to immediately take all the fish I purchased and put them into the 5g bucket of fresh clean well oxygenated saltwater with no acclimation. Then I can take my time acclimating the fish to the fish systems water.

 

[Baldguy]

My recent LA order came in at 1.010. The one bag from the FL facility was 1.020. I called them immediately and the rep said salinity drops during shipping. THAT MUCH? Yes, she said, that much. What bull crap. One didn't make it over night.

I didn't realize they would ship over night again for you. Did you have to order anything else or pay for shipping?

It has to be the same species of fish. You can't decide on to go with something else or shipping is not included.

 

[Humblefish]

I am a retailer and purchase fish every other week which are commonly in the bag for 24 hours. When the fish arrives the PH level in the bag is typically 7.3-7.5. There is also lots of ammonia and salinity is typically pretty low. The fish needs to be removed immediately and put in new saltwater. The way I found to do that is prepare new water before the fish arrives. I fill a 5g bucket with saltwater at a salinity of 1.019. Add aeration and drops of muriatic acid until I reach a PH of 7.5. Once the fish arrives I check the PH of bag and adjust it to closely match by adding a few more drops of muriatic acid if needed. This allows me to immediately take all the fish I purchased and put them into the 5g bucket of fresh clean well oxygenated saltwater with no acclimation. Then I can take my time acclimating the fish to the fish systems water.

Interesting acclimation process (I like it.) But have you ever tried using vinegar in lieu of muriatic acid to lower the pH? Just seems "safer" IMO.

 

[TerraFerma]

Interesting acclimation process (I like it.) But have you ever tried using vinegar in lieu of muriatic acid to lower the pH? Just seems "safer" IMO.

This is by far the best way to acclimate and is most helpful when batch acclimating a large shipment (such as your LFS).

There is no reason to ship at lower than NSW levels other than to save money on salt. 1.017 is neither Hypo or NSW...what's the point and I'm sure the fish would prefer the NSW it came from. Their body is tuned to run at NSW and they get plenty of oxygen at those levels when bagged right. The notable downside of shipping below NSW is that with less buffering salts you will get a larger PH drop.

I have no idea what LA/QM run their fish systems at. Hypo isn't really value add when you have so many fish coming and going. And it's taxing on their liver/kidney and a lot of fish don't do well in Hypo. So if their system runs at NSW or say 1.019 and then are sticking him in a bag with 1.010 to 1.017 it's just not helpful at the margin.

Best thing for a stressed out fish is to get it back in the water it is used to as quickly as possible.

 

[Crashjack]

I am a retailer and purchase fish every other week which are commonly in the bag for 24 hours. When the fish arrives the PH level in the bag is typically 7.3-7.5. There is also lots of ammonia and salinity is typically pretty low. The fish needs to be removed immediately and put in new saltwater. The way I found to do that is prepare new water before the fish arrives. I fill a 5g bucket with saltwater at a salinity of 1.019. Add aeration and drops of muriatic acid until I reach a PH of 7.5. Once the fish arrives I check the PH of bag and adjust it to closely match by adding a few more drops of muriatic acid if needed. This allows me to immediately take all the fish I purchased and put them into the 5g bucket of fresh clean well oxygenated saltwater with no acclimation. Then I can take my time acclimating the fish to the fish systems water.

Good stuff!

 

[cmcoker]

Am I remembering incorrectly, doesn't live aquaria orders ship from the distributor and divers den come from DFS facility?

 

[Humblefish]

Am I remembering incorrectly, doesn't live aquaria orders ship from the distributor and divers den come from DFS facility?

LA = drop ships directly from Quality Marine (a wholesaler)

DD = preconditioned fish which are eating and given some QT at their facility in Wisconsin

 

[enveetie]

They pay for the shipping to replace DoAs, but only ONCE per order, so you should wait for the two week window you have to request this service, in case another one of your fish also dies.

I had no idea they would replace and reship. No wonder they're so quick to offer the refund.

 

[Lazys Coral House]

Interesting acclimation process (I like it.) But have you ever tried using vinegar in lieu of muriatic acid to lower the pH? Just seems "safer" IMO.

I use muratic acid over vingear around the shop. As a ph reducer or to clean equipment. It is much more concentrated and pure then vingear. I think it is something like 100ml of acid is equivelent to a 1g of vingear so cheaper as well. Not exactly sure on that number but it is up there.

 

[Big G]

Bought a few fish from LA's parent company Petco a few weeks ago. Sometimes I can't resist. It's like saving animals at the pound. Those poor fish. The store "fish" person knew they kept their in store water at 1.019 but had no idea what it meant. Wow! The "fish" person was telling another employee that they made more money . . . "dealing with the fish."

 

[iemsparticus]

Bought a few fish from LA's parent company Petco a few weeks ago. Sometimes I can't resist. It's like saving animals at the pound. Those poor fish. The store "fish" person knew they kept their in store water at 1.019 but had no idea what it meant. Wow! The "fish" person was telling another employee that they made more money . . . "dealing with the fish."

This surprises you?

 

[lion king]

I got a Goldflake Angel from a very popular board sponsor retailer with the sg at 1.014; I was very disturbed. I contacted the retailer and his reasoning was to control parasites. I let him know that I have seen many fish lost trying to bring a fish to reef conditions or even fowlr conditions from such a low sg. He disregarded my concern and said the ph was all that matters. I matched the sg in my qt to the bag and acclimate to equalize ph. I've had him for week and I'm not real confident he's going to make it.

 

[Big G]

This surprises you?

Well, yeah, a bit. For several years they had a very knowledgeable young person working there that actually had both fresh and saltwater tanks at home and had been in the hobby since he was a kid. Things change

I got a Goldflake Angel from a very popular board sponsor retailer with the sg at 1.014; I was very disturbed. I contacted the retailer and his reasoning was to control parasites. I let him know that I have seen many fish lost trying to bring a fish to reef conditions or even fowlr conditions from such a low sg. He disregarded my concern and said the ph was all that matters. I matched the sg in my qt to the bag and acclimate to equalize ph. I've had him for week and I'm not real confident he's going to make it.

Wow! It's in good hands now. Best to you and your angel. Cheers!

 

[Crashjack]

I got a Goldflake Angel from a very popular board sponsor retailer with the sg at 1.014; I was very disturbed. I contacted the retailer and his reasoning was to control parasites. I let him know that I have seen many fish lost trying to bring a fish to reef conditions or even fowlr conditions from such a low sg. He disregarded my concern and said the ph was all that matters. I matched the sg in my qt to the bag and acclimate to equalize ph. I've had him for week and I'm not real confident he's going to make it.

My response is simply, show me some scientific proof that lower salinity levels than what a fish is exposed to in its natural environment is better for a fish in any situation, other than as part of an active treatment for parasites. I was out of this hobby for over 15 years, and I can't believe these old beliefs still permeate... it's as bad if not worse than, "Every tank has ich no matter what." Here's an old Ron Shimek article from back in the mid-late 90's. http://web.archive.org/web/20030218...om/fish2/aqfm/1997/nov/features/1/default.asp . It focuses more on corals but includes fish.

One 20 year-old article isn't the beat-all-end-all, but if lower salinities are actually better for fish, there has to be some mention in a study or scientific literature somewhere... something more than fish retailers telling us it is better. My hour+ long search turned up nothing. I found plenty, but lower salinities were never better but always worse... worse growth rates, less likelihood of reproduction, less offspring, higher offspring mortality, etc. Some success can be achieved at lower salinities, which is important if you want to commercially produce Florida baitfish in an inland, open system (saltwater isn't accessible and a closed system is too costly). However, success matching that of fish raised in their true environmental salinity is unlikely. 99.9% of us have closed systems so if we can easily re-create salinities closer to a fish's true habitat, why wouldn't we?

 

[Humblefish]

My response is simply, show me some scientific proof that lower salinity levels than what a fish is exposed to in its natural environment is better for a fish in any situation, other than as part of an active treatment for parasites.

I'll have to do more research when time permits, but my initial findings appear to support your argument:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...nity_on_oxygen_consumption_in_fishes_A_review

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022098115001987