Switched to carbo calcium

[Jseimo]

After learning about carbo calcium and meeting @Lou Ekus at rap Chicago I’ve made the switch from kalkwasser to carbo calcium. Kalkwasser was really making my ph way to high and I was tired of the precipitation build up. Carbo does a way better job, no buildup and my ph stays where it should. Thank you Lou for the sample and tropic Marin will be my go to

 

[ScottieB]

Thank you for sharing your experience. Can you tell me about the dose and regiment your doing ? Assuming your just adding it to the ATO reservoir?
I've considered it as an additive to replace my two part but the volume I would need made it cost probitive... adding it the top off though sounds intriguing.

 

[Jseimo]

Thank you for sharing your experience. Can you tell me about the dose and regiment your doing ? Assuming your just adding it to the ATO reservoir?
I've considered it as an additive to replace my two part but the volume I would need made it cost probitive... adding it the top off though sounds intriguing.

currently manually dosing. I use 22ml a day as per the recommendation of the calculator on the tropic Marin website. The dry powder makes a fair amount of liquid.

 

[Curtis Rose]

I’m thinking of using this with a dosing pump on my new build keep us updated as it sounds like an all around good product. Just haven’t seen many reviews or expierences

 

[malacoda]

I've been using Carbo-Calcium on both my tanks -- 24g and 65g -- for about 3 months now. Dosing with GHL Doser on one, and a Coral Box Wifi doser on the other.

Been working great for me so far.

No precip in any of my dosing containers. And it frees up space in my cabinets since I only need 1 reservoir versus 2.

The only thing to BE AWARE of is that Carbo-Calcium is not good for raising alkalinity, it's best for maintaining it once you reach your desired level. This is because ... for lack of a better term ... it holds the alk in the water column in an 'inert' state. And a portion of that alkalinity becomes 'active' when the corals need it. So, normal alk test kits will not be able to measure the amount of 'inert' alk stored in the water column...

Basically if you have, say, a dKH of 7.0, want to raise to 8.0, and increase the amount of Carbo-calcium being added to boost it ... you test kit will still only show 7.0 or so even though there is actually a lot more available in the water column.

E.g. Best to raise alk to your desired level using a carbonate buffer, then use CC to maintain that level.

Here's the link to the Tropic Marin news release that explains it way better than I can:

Aquariumversorgung mit All-For-Reef oder Carbo-Calcium.

Warum kann ich direkt nach der Zugabe von Carbo-Calcium nichts messen?

www.tropic-marin.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

After learning about carbo calcium and meeting @Lou Ekus at rap Chicago I’ve made the switch from kalkwasser to carbo calcium. Kalkwasser was really making my ph way to high and I was tired of the precipitation build up. Carbo does a way better job, no buildup and my ph stays where it should. Thank you Lou for the sample and tropic Marin will be my go to

How high of pH? I might suggest the tank could need more aeration if limewater was able to drive the pH too high.
Bear in mind that carbocalcium is a combination of organic carbon dosing and alk/calcium dosing. Not everyone wants that.

that said, calcium formate (carbocalcium) is a fine way to go, especially if cost is not a concern.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is because ... for lack of a better term ... it holds the alk in the water column in an 'inert' state. And a portion of that alkalinity becomes 'active' when the corals need it.

I sure hope Lou didn’t make that specific claim. It’s nonsense. The formate is converted into bicarbonate by bacteria that neither know nor care whether corals need anything or are even present.

it does take time for them to metabolize it. That doesn’t mean it only happens when corals need it, nor does it mean you can’t raise alk perfectly well when using it. Agreed you won’t see the alk rise instantly.

 

[Jseimo]

How high of pH? I might suggest the tank could need more aeration if limewater was able to drive the pH too high.
Bear in mind that carbocalcium is a combination of organic carbon dosing and alk/calcium dosing. Not everyone wants that.

that said, calcium formate (carbocalcium) is a fine way to go, especially if cost is not a concern.

My ph stays right around 8.2 with a spike of 8.3. When I was using kalk it was spiking to 8.4 8.45.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My ph stays right around 8.2 with a spike of 8.3. When I was using kalk it was spiking to 8.4 8.45.

ok, I think 8.4 is great, but if you don’t and aeration is insufficient to bring it down, switching to a lower pH product is certainly a fine approach.

 

[Lou Ekus]

I sure hope Lou didn’t make that specific claim. It’s nonsense. The formate is converted into bicarbonate by bacteria that neither know nor care whether corals need anything or are even present.

it does take time for them to metabolize it. That doesn’t mean it only happens when corals need it, nor does it mean you can’t raise alk perfectly well when using it. Agreed you won’t see the alk rise instantly.

@Randy Holmes-Farley , I think you are getting tied up in "semantics", and saying that the statement made is "nonsense" is a little shallow. The actual information we released in August follows. You will see that, in essence, the statement is not incorrect. Just re-worded a little:

August 2019

For all users of Carbo-Calcium and All-For-Reef (and all those who want to become users): Here is some scientific background from our Tropic Marin laboratory on the question: “why can´t I measure an increase in Ca and Alkalinity after dosing Carbo-Calcium or All-For-Reef in my aquarium?”
Carbo-Calcium and All-For-Reef are extremely effective for “maintaining” the levels of calcium and alkalinity in reef aquariums and somewhat less effective at “raising” those levels to desired concentrations. Consequently, it is recommended to start dosing these products once the desired levels of these parameters are reached. To adjust these parameters individually, we recommend using Tropic Marin Balling Part A for raising the calcium level and Tropic Marin Balling Part B for raising the alkalinity level when needed.
Carbo-Calcium powder is a pure, organic calcium salt (calcium formate Ca(HCOO)2). Calcium formate dissolves in water to form calcium ions (Ca2+) and formate anions (HCOO-). This happens gradually according to the needs in the aquarium. With the recommended daily starting dose of 5 ml of concentrated solution per 100 liters/26 US-gal. of aquarium water, 2.15 ppm of calcium and 4.8 ppm of formate are added to the aquarium water. This small but effective quantity does not result in measurable changes in pH, water hardness and calcium or alkalinity concentration in the aquarium water.
Formate is taken up by microorganisms in the aquarium and metabolized, eventually forming bicarbonates within the coral polyps, and then used to build the calcium carbonate coral skeleton as it grows.
After dosing, the Carbo-Calcium is present in the water column in a form that cannot yet be measured (by common tests at home) and is only broken down in response to the metabolic demands of the corals. Since the metabolic processes in the organisms take place in a controlled manner (supply and demand), the resulting changes in water parameters are so small they are often undetectable.
These products are highly effective at supplying the essential calcium and bicarbonate components that the coral need for growth, even at extremely low concentrations. These supplied compounds “bypass” a stage where they can be detected in the water column and are taken up by the coral polyps directly.
In summary, it can be said that the components for the growth of corals supplied by means of Carbo-Calcium (and All-For-Reef) are not detectable by conventional test kits. We are actively working on a testing method to measure these organic salt compounds in the aquarium at your home, but as of now none exists.

So the statement about being held in an "inert" state is not perfectly correct. But in principle, the idea of it being in the water column in a mostly undetectable form, is not totally incorrect either. I hope this clears up the misunderstanding.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m not concerned about the inert part, it’s the next sentence that is the issue,

I think that perhaps the statement that was posted that I strongly object to:

it holds the alk in the water column in an 'inert' state. And a portion of that alkalinity becomes 'active' when the corals need it.

Might be a misinterpretation of your statement:

This happens gradually according to the needs in the aquarium.

No one should be thinking that the alkalinity is released in response to the needs of the corals. It will be released as a function of time whether something needs it or not, as you understand, but others may not have that understanding.

 

[Cory]

What if you literally had 0 No3 and 0 po4, and added calcium formate to the water? It wouldn't be broken down until po4 or no3 were available right? Thus corals could be grown based on no3 and po4 dosed.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What if you literally had 0 No3 and 0 po4, and added calcium formate to the water? It wouldn't be broken down until po4 or no3 were available right? Thus corals could be grown based on no3 and po4 dosed.

no. Bacteria and possibly other organisms such as corals can metabolize formate without consuming N and P along with it. It’s just like you eating sugar. You do not need any N and P along with it to metabolize it. If you are alive, you can burn the sugar. You can’t gain new cells without N and P additions, but you can oxidize sugar.

 

[dmsc2fs]

I know this is an old thread but I have read this same thing about AFR and CarboCalcium. The part about adjusting your ALK to where you want it before you start dosing. Here is where I get confused. If you need to use another product to get ALK where you want it, how do you know how much to dose of CC or AFR? If you can’t use a test to measure, and your Alk is going down should you dose limewater again to bring it back up and increase CC/AFR again after the fact? It seems like a never ending cycle of trying to dial in limewater on a longer term scale so that you can go back to trying to fiddle with the dose of CC/AFR hoping you get in the right ballpark until it’s time to correct with limewater.

How would you know you overdose? you would have to correct with a water change and after use limewater to restart the entire process?

I am trying to use AFR but the more I read the more it appears that it’s a product that you have to use voodoo to hope you pick the right dose amount?

 

[Lou Ekus]

I know this is an old thread but I have read this same thing about AFR and CarboCalcium. The part about adjusting your ALK to where you want it before you start dosing. Here is where I get confused. If you need to use another product to get ALK where you want it, how do you know how much to dose of CC or AFR? If you can’t use a test to measure, and your Alk is going down should you dose limewater again to bring it back up and increase CC/AFR again after the fact? It seems like a never ending cycle of trying to dial in limewater on a longer term scale so that you can go back to trying to fiddle with the dose of CC/AFR hoping you get in the right ballpark until it’s time to correct with limewater.

How would you know you overdose? you would have to correct with a water change and after use limewater to restart the entire process?

I am trying to use AFR but the more I read the more it appears that it’s a product that you have to use voodoo to hope you pick the right dose amount?

In the long term, if you system is using the proper amount of calcium to alkalinity ratio, then the AFR or CC will do a good job maintaining both, IF you start with the values you would like to maintain. If your system uses more alkalinity, then the corals are using, in relation to the calcium, then the AFR or CC will maintain your calcium, and there will always be a drop in the alkalinity as time goes on. This is because the ration of calcium to alkalinity is "fixed" in the single solution. in those cases a periodic addition of some alkalinity is necessary to maintain your desired values.
In the end, it is not voodoo, it is math and chemistry. If you still can't seem to get a handle on this, I am always available in our office to help you by phone. It all really does make sense if you think about it.

 

[dmsc2fs]

In the long term, if you system is using the proper amount of calcium to alkalinity ratio, then the AFR or CC will do a good job maintaining both, IF you start with the values you would like to maintain. If your system uses more alkalinity, then the corals are using, in relation to the calcium, then the AFR or CC will maintain your calcium, and there will always be a drop in the alkalinity as time goes on. This is because the ration of calcium to alkalinity is "fixed" in the single solution. in those cases a periodic addition of some alkalinity is necessary to maintain your desired values.
In the end, it is not voodoo, it is math and chemistry. If you still can't seem to get a handle on this, I am always available in our office to help you by phone. It all really does make sense if you think about it.

I guess my larger point wasn’t clear. If I decide to use either of these products and I have my C and Alk where I want them. I start dosing. Let’s say I have 100g tank and I decide to start with 2ml/day. Now what do I do? I monitor and I notice my C is dropping. So so I increase the amount of CC and continue testing and keep increasing until I get to stability again? That conflicts with the the theme that you can’t accurately test C and Alk with these products. Does that leave me with using something else to bring my levels back where I want them and after that increase the amount of CC I’m using until I hit the sweet spot again? How would I know? If the products don’t test accurate as soon as I stop any other dosing of C isn’t it going to drop in my test kit always if CC doesn’t test for C accurately?

based on this comment “After dosing, the Carbo-Calcium is present in the water column in a form that cannot yet be measured (by common tests at home) and is only broken down in response to the metabolic demands of the corals.”

Wouldn’t another way of saying that be: use carbo-calcium and never have and idea how much calcium is in your water? How do we reach stability this way?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That conflicts with the the theme that you can’t accurately test C and Alk with these products.

That is not a correct statement. Calcium is correctly read at all times when using carbocalcium or AFR.

Alk is also correctly read, just with a lag from when you dose it. IMO, if you want 7 dKH, target 7 dKH with an actual test. The only time this is a worrisome issue is for the first bit of time when starting (say, a week). After that the processing of the formate to usable alk is going to be fine to allow normal testing and dosing. Certainly it is more than adequate to ensure the alk is not getting excessively high or low.

 

[Lou Ekus]

I guess my larger point wasn’t clear. If I decide to use either of these products and I have my C and Alk where I want them. I start dosing. Let’s say I have 100g tank and I decide to start with 2ml/day. Now what do I do? I monitor and I notice my C is dropping. So so I increase the amount of CC and continue testing and keep increasing until I get to stability again? That conflicts with the the theme that you can’t accurately test C and Alk with these products. Does that leave me with using something else to bring my levels back where I want them and after that increase the amount of CC I’m using until I hit the sweet spot again? How would I know? If the products don’t test accurate as soon as I stop any other dosing of C isn’t it going to drop in my test kit always if CC doesn’t test for C accurately?

based on this comment “After dosing, the Carbo-Calcium is present in the water column in a form that cannot yet be measured (by common tests at home) and is only broken down in response to the metabolic demands of the corals.”

Wouldn’t another way of saying that be: use carbo-calcium and never have and idea how much calcium is in your water? How do we reach stability this way?

I agree with what @Randy Holmes-Farley has replied to you. The calcium is able to be tested as soon as the product "(Carbocalcium or AFR) is dissolved in your system's water. This is just like if you were adding calcium chloride for calcium supplementation. When we talk about metabolism and delay in measuring, we are always just talking about the alkalinity aspect of the addition.
By the way, when you are transitioning, and you may need a small addition of either calcium or alkalinity to dial things in, the Balling Part A is a good source for your calcium, and the Balling Part B is a good source for your alkalinity. Those two are also effective is you need periodic adjustments to those values as time goes on.

 

[dmsc2fs]

Ok thank you. I understand better. You can test for both. C will indicate quickly and ALK will be a delayed but will test accurately. So you can watch trends over time for ALK to make slow deliberate changes but they will be noticed within a lag.

Would it be fair to say if you make changes to dosing at one week intervals you are seeing consistently accurate test for ALK?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok thank you. I understand better. You can test for both. C will indicate quickly and ALK will be a delayed but will test accurately. So you can watch trends over time for ALK to make slow deliberate changes but they will be noticed within a lag.

Would it be fair to say if you make changes to dosing at one week intervals you are seeing consistently accurate test for ALK?

Yes, depending on whether you dosed formate 1 minute before testing (it won't show) or 24 h later (it will mostly show, but you also had 24 extra hours of alk decline).