Tank birthday, 47+ years

[Paul B]

Picasso, I doubt the existing fish pass anything along to new fish. I just think all fish in the sea have an immunity to everything to an extent. They have to or they would all die because the oceans have been mixing for a long time so diseases including crypto are everywhere and do not bother fish until we put them in something like quarantine or even shipping containers.

It is our job, and it is a very easy job or I wouldn't do it, to just help the fish keep it's immunity by doing what I suggested dozens of times.

Many of my fish scratch a little for a day and may even display a spot here and there. Those parasites are always on wild fish and we only see them depending on where they are in their cycle. They will grow and fall off to try to infect something else, but they can't in a healthy immune system.

Some of them may get hold of a fish and make it to maturity and that is the basis of my theory/system.

I keep hearing silly things like my sponges eat the parasites, my UG filter traps them, my Ozone kills them etc.
This is nonsense. Parasites are probably all over my tank. I want them there.

 

[Susan Edwards]

I just added 5 tangs, a foxface and a tiny goby. I yellow tang disappeared overnight the first night. Never saw it again, yet it seemed fine. For the most part, I'm going no QT. My tank is 2 years established (though going thru a reboot to get pretty again after a disaster{primer paint for smoker in one room killed half of all my livestock in 2 tanks}) I am resetting up a 40 gal aio for QT for fish from live aquaria for their 14 days warranty as they need pictures as proof now and a dead fish in a display is usually just gone. LFS have no warranty so they go right in. I had taken my old qt and frag qt tank down for the last year after that disaster and didn't do much last year at all--no new stock (mom had died which is why the primer on her room). I am adding rock I saved which will need to recycle and will toss in a few pieces from the sump and add bacteria.

 

[Paul B]

Sounds like a plan Susan

 

[PicassoDan]

So Paul, you say that newly introduced fish show crypto for a couple days in your tank (more so than existing fish). Are you thinking that new fish have lost some of their immunity in the time it takes for them to make it from the ocean to your tank?

Susan, as an interesting side note, Rabbitfish (like the Foxface) have a better natural resistance to crypto:

A novel protein isolated from the serum of rabbitfish (Siganus oramin) is lethal to Cryptocaryon irritans - PubMed

The susceptibility of eight marine fish species cultured in South China were tested for infection by the parasitic ciliate, Cryptocaryon irritans, via a challenge examination and an immobilization assay. All species of fish (representing six different families) that we investigated were infected...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[atoll]

I took my redline tang back to the LFS I bought it from last week after having it several months. In that time it grew well and never caught as much as a spot that I could see. I will be honest, like Paul, I am not a tang fan in fact I am not a fan of fish that get big and like to roam the reef over thousands of yards or miles of the reef. So why did I buy it? First to predate on a small amount of GHA, not much but it was there. Secondly I wanted to put a tang in to show I had a fish that's is regarded as a itch magnet although I have other fish you could attach that label to like Royal grammas. The tang was also jet black in colour and if any white spot so much as looked at the tang I would see it. This tang never even got a spot soon after introduction unlike my Royal grammas which did do.
Tangs, are to my mind, are not a very interesting fish, feel free to disagree. Tangs are also quite feisty and mine was a bit of a bully in truth, it would be fine one minute swimming amongst the other fish then decide for no apparent reason to chace one around before settling back down. I much prefer smaller fish that mostly like to stay close to my reef structure in pairs, trios or small shoals. Kept this way fish are much more interesting watching their interactions, spawning and displays often with more vibrant colours. Even that little boring (to some) damsel takes on a whole new persona when kept in a pair or more. I was once told one of my favourite fish the Royal gramma is a boring fish, well all I can say is he never kept two.
So I gave my tang to the LFS which had been sold by the following day when I went back I guess as it was in such good overhauled condition. I now have 2 nice torpedo gobbies which are swimming together and getting to know my reef, maybe one day when they are mature they will spawn like many of my fish.
Something this evening spawned in my tank am not sure what but could have been my yellow wrasse as my Anthias, damsels clowns and other fish suddenly started a feeding frenzy. I could quite see what it was they were eating but quite possibly eggs that had been scattered just below the waters surface.

 

[KyRo]

What are your oldest corals?

 

[LovesDogs_CatsRokay]

I stopped QT'ing. Have since introduced 2 tangs and 3 anthias. Some of the fish showed a few ich spots for a couple days, but all recovered. I feed frozen LRS reef frenzy daily, and thanks to you, Paul, I started feeding a whole frozen clam (purchased live, frozen by me) once per week. The fish love it and seem much healthier and are growing faster it seems like. I did have a wrasse die from a spinal injury, but I don't think that counts?

Paul, what are your thoughts on an observational period before putting fish in the main display? if the observation tank is also full of live rock and bacteria? Ich does not worry me, but velvet does still scare me, as it can kill so fast. I'm planning on upgrading to a 300 gallon and the thought of wiping out a tank that size from velvet is frightening.

 

[Deezill]

Well, there could be some validity to what @Paul B is saying. For those of you that believe in the flu shots, which I don't, get injected with what is said to be the virus but it is dead. Your body builds immunity to it. I do agree with the fact that if your tank is too clean your fish won't be able to build an immunity to anything because they have not been exposed to it. Common sense tells us that there is no QT going on in the ocean, There is no API General Cure, Copper Power, Prazipro or Seachem Curpimane in the ocean. I am not telling anyone to not QT. That is for you to decide. But I can say this. Spend your life inside a sterile environment and walk inside a school with children or any public building and you will definitely be in bed the next few days coughing, sneezing with some type of flu or cold. Pay me no mind, as I just wanted to comment on this wonderful thread.

 

[Paul B]

So Paul, you say that newly introduced fish show crypto for a couple days in your tank (more so than existing fish). Are you thinking that new fish have lost some of their immunity in the time it takes for them to make it from the ocean to your tank?

PicassoDan. My new fish rarely show maybe one spot and they may even scratch once or twice for a day or two. That is what they are doing in the store where their immunity is at a very low level from stress and whatever food they give them, most likely brine shrimp.

They could have crypto, ich velvet, whatever, I don't care as it always disappears in a couple of days as it should. I don't know how long it takes for a fish to lose immunity and I am sure it slowly fades and doesn't dissapear suddenly on a certain date. I am also sure different species lose immunity at different times. Maybe some fish never lose immunity but I doubt it due to all the different fish on the disease forum.

Remember most fish in a LFS are infected with everything and it is only the copper or whatever medication the store uses that suppresses that infection. When you remove that medication, the parasites try to flourish and they will if we don't get that fish healthy and stress free very soon.

Atoll as you know I also find tangs boring. I know it's just us but they are the most common fish and as schooling fish they are not, IMO that interesting because a tang depends on other tangs to mimic it's every movement so they don't seem to have much of a mind of their own, say like a copperband butterfly that seems to have a personality and is inquisitive. You have to look close to see this and many Noobs flock to tangs because of their striking colors and high price tag.

If you SCUBA dive you may see 5,000, tangs and one copperband probably no clingfish and maybe two pipefish.

Paul, what are your thoughts on an observational period before putting fish in the main display? if the observation tank is also full of live rock and bacteria?

I of course don't do that because I actually want whatever the fish is carrying as the heart of my theory is the tank needs ich, crypto, flukes and yes, velvet to stay immune. But if you have a tank that is not sterile with a bunch of white PVC pipes and it is large enough, I think it would be fine.

I would decorate such a tank with red clay bricks and not plastic. Bricks are inert clay and won't absorb medications, they are very porous so bacteria should fill the pores and I have used bricks for years.

The fish are not afraid of them. I guess they look more natural especially if you break them and you can make nooks for the fish to hunt food. PVC, glazed flower pots, cups and saucers are a terrible idea and the fish know that which is why they look so stressed in that type of setting.

Fish, especially new fish need to hide and if you can see the fish, he can see you and he doesn't like you so he doesn't feel safe and therefore he is stressed which is exactly what we are trying to avoid.

It is the stress we inflict on new fish that forces them to become sick, not because of what they are carrying from the sea as all fish do. Just look at the disease forum and see how many fish get sick or die shortly after going into a separate tank that we can call quarantine, hospital, condo, party palace etc. The fish call it (opposite of heaven which will be bleeped out)

When I put a new fish in my tank, it normally hides very well for a few days like it is supposed to do. If I don't see it for a week I say, good, he is getting used to my tank and acclimating, probably finding some food among the many caves.

I didn't see this guy for two weeks and now is fine, but rarely comes fully out, but that is the type of fish it is.



I put this tiny angelfish in a couple of weeks ago and he is still hiding. But now he is at the mouth of a cave and comes out to eat. That is great as these are small fish and are supposed to hide.

 

[atoll]

Paul, we have been accused of only having hardy fish in the past hence why our fish don't catch itch etc. What utter rubbish, I have had a number of tangs in the past such as regal tangs but not had one for many years. They get to big and I traded mine just like I did with my redlined tang. Whenever I have had irch magnets like Royal grammas, even firefish they nearly always showed a spot or 2 but within a day or 2 they would be gone. I have had angelfish that would do the same. I have 2 torpedo gobbies recently introduced not a sign of a spot. They are reported by some to be shy and secretive heading for the nearest bolt hole at the first sign of just about anything. Well, somebody needs to tell my 2 as they are always out. They are out when I get up in the morning before the lights come on. They are out when lights go out and were still out after 12 midnight last night. They are out when I approach the tank and dont bolt away. They are out when I put my tongs or feeding tube into the tank and dont flee, they chace the food and are eating well. So why would my fish be different to others? Well maybe they feel safe and secure and like the environment they find themselves in compared to some others. Maybe they will become shy and reclusive later but is that likely? I doubt it. These fish being smoothed skinned should also be itch magnets. My make damsel gave them a looking over when first introduced but that's it nothing I have seen interested in them today. They seem very happy in fact one sent me a box of chocolates and a bunch of flowers as a think you for rescuing them from the LFS. Where they in poison water at the LFSs they never said but their look and behaviour suggests they are happy in their new home.

 

[Paul B]

I know, am also accused of doing that. Just having very easy fish like a hippo tang which I have been keeping since way before most people were born. I have had every type of tang and they also don't die of parasites. I just don't get it.

 

[NDIrish]

It that is what you can get, then go for it. Most of the country doesn't live near the sea and I don't want them moving here, it's crowded enough and there is just so much seawater to go around.

I think you have a good plan to start this.

I use to live in Sunrise, Fl. My wife and I would scuba dive every weekend. I had access then to water, sand and rocks.

 

[NDIrish]

When I get a new fish, I float the fish to get the temperature the same as DT.
I then pour them into a different container then add water from my DT and remove some of the water from the container (put it in the DT tank).
While I'm doing this, I inspect the fish. Do this for anywhere from 1/2 - 1 hour. I don't add any chemicals.
Then I put fish and water into the DT.
Haven't lost a fish.

 

[flsalty]

How I would set up a non quarantined so called Ich Management tank and why I think people have problems. I hate that term "Ich Management" I prefer immune.

A new tank will not be healthy or immune even if I or the Pope set it up. Not the current Pope, the last one.
I am not exactly sure why, but it is the bacteria that keep the fish happy and healthy. I am now not talking about the bacteria in the fish. That is something else. But the bacteria in the gravel and rocks is what we need

We talk about cycling like that has anything to do with fish health, and it doesn't. Many people feel that after their test kit reads zero ammonia and nitrite they can go out and buy a Moorish Idol and whale shark. They can't and those fish will die. The whale shark may even get ich first. ;Bucktooth

If you want to start a new tank and not have to quarantine and have a healthy tank I feel you need to set up the tank with live rock, live sand or gravel and some water, or a lot of water from either the sea or someone elses tank. Then throw out your test kits, but feed the tank heavily.

Put in some small pieces of clam, pellets, chicken ala king or flakes if you like, anything that will rot.

If the water gets slightly cloudy, you did it correctly. You don't want the water to look like New England clam chowder, but a little cloudy.

Let it clear and do it again, maybe for a couple of weeks.
Then add a fish, not a $100.00 Purple tang. Maybe a clownfish because to kill a clownfish you have to run it over with a school bus carrying Sumo wrestlers after they came back from a hot dog eating contest.

"Do not quarantine that fish"

Add a few more fish but do not dip, medicate, perform palates or put in a separate room 10' away from your TV for 72 days as that will surely cause you to spend time on a disease forum especially if you watch reality TV such as "Who wants to Marry my Grouchy Obese Uncle Bob." ;Meh

From the first day feed those fish only frozen or live food. Live worms a couple of times a week would be great but clams work. Buy them in a grocery store or fish market not clams sold for fish food as they could have been frozen when Nancy Pelosi was born.
I use LRS food every day along with some worms occasionally.

If any of those fish get a couple of spots, don't go on a disease forum or they will have you dipping the poor creature in tree stump remover and polident.
Leave it alone and go out to dinner. Try the Merlot and crab cakes. ;Smug

I recently bought a hippo tank, a few months or a year ago. He scratched a little at first Which is actually a good sign .

Contrary to popular opinion you want living parasites in there. If you don't want them, go ahead and quarantine everything but this thread is about why do some people "not" lose fish in the beginning.

Last week I bought a tiny angelfish. It scratched a few times for a few days. Now he doesn't and no, he is not dead and will probably live 15 years. He is jet black so I would easily see parasites, which I have not seen on any of my fish for over 40 years.

My old, big copperband just died of old age a couple of days ago. No infections or diseases. So I bought a jet black gobi, a citron gobi, sunburst Anthius an angelfish and a couple I forgot. All small fish. But they will never get sick. I will bet Bobby's life on it.
So that is my plan. Other people could post theirs.

This post should be a sticky on the disease forum lol. Ever since I moved to Florida I've used some NSW to start my tanks. Not all of it, but at least 20 gallons or so. I've always felt it helps, though I've never done any testing to prove it. It certainly doesn't hurt.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Just had a friend give me his live rock and fish. After I broke down the tank for him and set up the Tunze system to soak I brought home his fish and checked temp and salinity and moved them into my old 40 gallon tank. Two weeks later and not one problem. The fish are healthy and just about suck the food out of my hands before I can get it to the tank. Not fish that I would pick out but hey they needed a home. No ozone or U.V. on this tank for 15 years or more. I am sure I will hear angels sing any moment as they expire and move to fish heaven due to my lack of chemical QT lol!

I have been using natural seawater from Petco since I am so lazy and it requires no RODI and mixing. Just make sure the temperature is close and drain 5 gallons and add 5 gallons. What is so hard about that? Looking forward to a new tank thanks to the great live rock!

 

[Paul B]

I think I found out what is wrong with my 3D printer. Nothing. It's me, or rather my computer.

The thing needs 4 gigabytes to run minimum, and my computer is 4 Gig. But it is over ten years old so that 4G is not like a quarter of a gigabyte, it's more like Tapioca pudding. ;Meh

I called Dell, who make my computer and of course they want me to buy a new computer, but I am not just another Jiboni. I am an old Geezer and I hate new stuff as I know I won't be able to get it to work.

My other computer, which my wife uses is new and it is Windows, 10 or something. I hate it and have a hard time using it. It crashes and gets in moods.

This machine is Windows 7 and I could run it over with a cement truck going 27 or more miles an hour and it keeps running without ever missing a word.

Nothing ever happens to it, I never have to re-boot, Un-sign in, go off line, choose a different network, pour Campbells Chicken Soup on it, nothing, it just keeps running.

So I told them that and I ordered another 4 gig memory card from them. Thats the biggest one I could get for this machine and they were glad I bought it because I think it was their last one and they want to throw out that file cabinet where they were storing it

So now, after I get this thing, this computer will have 8 gigabytes of memory.

Hopefully that will allow me to use my 3 D printer.

All the tutorials for that printer show people printing these stupid models of gargoyles, dragons, fictional dopey little figures that serve no purpose unless you are like 4.

I don't get it, why would you buy a $300.00 machine, spend another $100.00 on resins, alcohol, gloves, goggles and computer chips when you could buy that garbage in a gumball machine for fifty cents.

Maybe it's me. I will be printing gears, levers pulleys etc. Stuff that I need for my "artwork" and Steam Punk stuff.

By the way the Art Gallery has all my works and soon will feature just my stuff. Then they will have a "Meet the Artist" day. I will wear my Michelangelo clothes and speak with an Italian accent. ;Bucktooth

Maybe I could get Christie Brinkley as my Spokes Model.

 

[Matt Carden]

I have a computer also that is over 10 years old. Still works great. I don't want to upgrade either.

 

[Susan Edwards]

Paul, what are your thoughts on an observational period before putting fish in the main display? if the observation tank is also full of live rock and bacteria? Ich does not worry me, but velvet does still scare me, as it can kill so fast. I'm planning on upgrading to a 300 gallon and the thought of wiping out a tank that size from velvet is frightening.

What I'm doing is more in line with an observational period, and only for fish purchased online as they require photos for proof oh death. After the 14 day warranty for like Live Aquaria, all fish will go into the DT. Velvet scares me as I have had it wipe out 9 out of 13 fish, but that was on another tank that was less than 6 mo old I think. It was too new and too many fish added (my mother's day presents...) at one time. I'm hoping this new tank is sufficiently seasoned now to withstand what goes in.

 

[Paul B]

This post should be a sticky on the disease forum lol.

You will rarely see my threads as a sticky anywhere because people "say" they use my system then they get ich velvet, flukes etc and say the system can't work.
There are also people who try a reverse undergravel filter and crash their system so it can't work.

Those people never used my system which is not really "my" system,but the fishes own system and they showed me how to use it.

Remember 97.3% of people in this hobby are Noobs with less then five years experience so everything is new, including their tank.

5 years is not even half the lifespan of a blue leg hermit crab. If my systems can't work, why are they the oldest on these forums?
I think people think they are using my, or the fishes system then they will put the fish in an "Observation" tank, or feed dry foods or dip the fish, maybe slip in a little Prizapro.

It's your tank and you can put the fish in olive oil if you like. But my system is very simple. It is the simplest system because it requires no preparation, no medication, no dipping, no observation and no offering up tea leaves to the moon, although that may help if you are Greek.

Also many people want to limit parasites using ozone, UV, diatom filters or signed pictures of Nancy Pelosi hung near their sump.

For some reason people can't grasp the idea that I want parasites. We just call them parasites because we can't see them so we think they are not cute and fuzzy like a puppy. ;Bucktooth

If they were an inch long and looked like penguins we would be keeping them and feeding them tangs.

Parasites don't want to kill your fish, that would be like you killing your boss. They are just trying to make a living and if your fish are immune, the parasites have a hard time. They are fine with that as that is what they do in the sea. They find a fish, try to grab on to take a few bites of blood then the fishes immune system kicks in and the parasite says Bye Bye and looks for another fish.

But if we try to short circuit the system that Mother Nature designed, she gets mad and those parasites multiply like rabbits and have nothing to eat except your fish.

It's a balanced system in the sea and we can have that in our tanks. It just takes a mature tank and some food with bacteria and parasites

If you can feed your fish live worms like white worms once a week, most of your problems would be over.

I bet very few people on the disease forum feeds live worms. I also bet most people there quarantined their fish or have a new, sterile tank.
You should also not feed live anything to quarantined fish as they have no immunity so that would be counter productive.

Susan, if that is the ON line policy, you have to do what they say. I never bought anything live on line so I am not an expert on that, (or anything else)

 

[atoll]

Harrr yes, experts. The problem I have with SOME experts is what was correct yesterday may not be correct tomorrow and if the science god says it is not so then it can't be right. That is until some other expert comes along does more research and we start all over again.
Paul, we are both old enough and been in this hobby long enough to know how often the "experts" have been wrong about something. We could start a list of what the experts told us only for sometime later to either be disproved or to be greatly amended. The list could be called "thou shall not" or something like that.

Am no expert, don't have an ology and have little science type equipment. The only thing I have is what little knowledge I have gained over the years, mostly by trial and error. I was in building like you most of my working life and my qualifications in it didn't give me much to support my hobby. OK, I am not bad at making things but I also have an open inquisitive mind and I often think outside the box.
Perhaps we should start a veterans reefing forum on here lol.