Tank birthday, 47+ years

[Paul B]

Bloodworms for food are normally not worms but beetle larvae. There really are salt water bloodworms that we use for bait and they would be great, but pretty big so for most fish, they would have to be cut up. Lionfish and moray eels would be able to handle them as would anemones.

Earthworms are also great. I am not sure if it is the actual worms that is very healthy or the dirt and bacteria in their gut.

Like I mentioned, the lack of gut "dirt" with it's associated bacteria is the reason we have a disease forum. Fish are perfectly able to ward off any disease if they are fed correctly and by fed correctly I am not only talking about nutrition wise. But bacteria.

Most people just don't get it and insist on feeding their fish clean, sterile foods like we would eat. But most of us are not fish.

 

[atoll]

No I mean the white young guy who fixes the cabinets. Also the Lady who fixes the ceramics. Unbelievable.
The black guy is more of the fabrics expert.

Hmmm the woodworking guy is the young guy, I think he has dark skin slightly Asian. Why wife says he hadn't lol. Now am.going colour blind

 

[atoll]

Although I think they are not 100% sexually mature my 2 cleaner wrasse have been following one another around and displaying in a courting way. Perhaps they will.spawn in the not too distant future. Seems few people keep more than one in their tank. Hard to get a pic of them on my phone, this is the best I can do so far.

 

[Paul B]

I am sure they will, all healthy fish spawn and our fish are healthy.
These guys were practicing social distancing the entire time I had them staying 6' apart at opposite ends of the tank. Now they are inseparable and probably spawning unless they are just good friends.

 

[atoll]

My Royal grammas are also getting very friendly after staying apart for a couple of months.

 

[Zionas]

What do you consider to be the start of the “safe period” for a fish? What I mean is how long do you feel does it takes for a fish to be kept before you’re relatively confident that it’ll live for the duration of its natural lifespan?

 

[atoll]

What do you consider to be the start of the “safe period” for a fish? What I mean is how long do you feel does it takes for a fish to be kept before you’re relatively confident that it’ll live for the duration of its natural lifespan?

Before Paul replies I hope you don't mind if I chirp in with my 2 cents worth.

It has been reported a fish caught with cyanide can live fine showing no real signs of it for up to 6 months then just drop dead. Of course, some fish caught with cyanide will live it's life out and die of natural causes.

Many people report fish living a good few months then dying for no apparent reason. The suspicion then is cyanide caught, yes it's still common in some countries unfortunately. Once over the possible cyanide caught period we should expect our fish to live out their natural lifespan.

This all depends mainly on how the aquarist looks after his fish as to how long you can expect your fish to live and each species has it's own natural lifespan of course some fish only living a couple of years with others much more. Certainly fish should not be dying of the common disease we can read about on the diseases forum like white spot, itch, velvet or brook.

Fish should be healthy enough to be immune and fight any attack by these types of diseases off. That forum is like the chamber of horrors to me.

However, as stated, you first have to get the fish to recover from the catches methods, the holders shippers, handlers, wholesalers and LFSs and get the fish back into condition with what you feed, how often and tank conditions etc. This alone can take anything from a couple of weeks to months IMO.

Providing the fish hasn't been drug caught most fish should recover within weeks however with the right care.

 

[Zionas]

@atoll Cyanide is precisely the reason why I am extremely hesitant to buy anything from Southeast Asia or South Asia. To go over the list of species I plan to buy and their points of origin as told by my LFS in China:

x2 Ocellaris Clowns (Captive Bred)

x1 Marine Betta (this is the one that’s going to be from Indonesia, I’ve heard it’s a very hardy species though once it starts eating but being from Indonesia still somewhat concerns me)

x1 Royal Gramma (Caribbean)

x1 Flame Hawkfish (Fiji or Marshall Islands, processed via Hawaii-I was originally considering a Falco or Coral Hawk but my LFS told me they’re from Indonesia)

x1-2 dwarf angels of one of these species:

-Flame (Marshall Islands / Christmas Island, processed through Hawaii)

-Multicolor (Fiji / Marshall Islands / Christmas Island, processed through Hawaii)

-Joculator (Cocos And Keeling Islands, processed through Australia)

-Atlantic Cherub Angel (Caribbean, processed through US)

-Brazilian Flameback Angel (Brazil / Caribbean, processed through US)

-African Flameback Angel (East Africa)


If I only get 1 dwarf angel, my 7th fish will be chosen from among the following:

-Swissguard Basslet (Caribbean, processed through US)

-Yellow or McNeill’s Assessor (Australia)

-One of the 4-5” Halichoeres wrasses (most likely Fiji)


As you can see I go to great lengths to avoid fish caught in regions where cyanide is used, though the Marine Betta I’ll have to pray and hope for the best. Would you say any of the species I’m considering are particularly prone / sensitive to these diseases you’ve mentioned? Are they all hardy species?

Are you also suggesting that a 6-month observation period is necessary to determine whether a fish caught using cyanide will survive and live out it’s full lifespan?

Of course I’ll try my very best to give them a good environment and the best diet possible, I take these creatures under my care very seriously.

What about corals? Would corals sourced from Southeast and South Asia also be of concern when it comes to dying from cyanide and being carriers of disease that may kill my fish?

I’ve also selected these species based on what I’ve read of their longevity. I’m most curious about the lifespans of any Centropyge angels and Basslets / grammas, but I’m quite confident my Marine Betta, clownfish, and Hawkfish can live for pretty long. While selecting partly based on lifespan may sound ridiculous for some, it is a concern for me because I don’t see myself upgrading to a larger system any time soon.

 

[atoll]

@Zionas
What I am saying is apart from cyanide caught fish most should be fine after say 3 or 4 weeks of regular good feeding. Any fish showing no signs of the diseases mentioned should live a long natural life.

I heear people suggest corals can bring disease into the tank but I am sceptical of this. However even if a coral was to bring in itch well cared for fish should be able to fight it off.

I am no disease expert and thankful for that as my fish don't catch these common diseases and have not had a case of white spot etc in over 30 years even though I have had many tanks and fish bought from many different LFSs.

Here is an example/ observation when I add Royal grammas which I have kept many times. Often when first introduced and within a few hours they will get a few spots and scratch. However, within around 36 hours the spots will have disappeared, the fish will then be fine and no other fish will show signs of the spots.

I have never kept a marine beta so cant really comment on them other than to say they are ambush predators so any small fish would be at risk. Aren't they also mainly nocturnal?

 

[Zionas]

@atoll This is great info. The Marine Betta-from what I’ve read they may bother shrimp and inverts but I haven’t read reports of them eating small fish unless it’s one of the very streamlined, rocket-shaped fish such as a cleaner Wrasse or certain very small fish like some gobies, maybe blennies. From the videos of the fish that I’ve seen on YouTube they get along just fine with most fish and don’t seem to bother anyone.

The Marine Betta is the only chance I’m willing to take with an Indonesian fish for my first tank, I hope it goes well. Everyone says it’s incredibly durable as long as it is eating prepared foods.

Your Royal Grammas, are they a species very prone to diseases like ich and velvet? The majority of accounts seem to agree that it’s a very hardy fish and everywhere I go it’s recommended for a first-time hobbyist.

Since I plan to run my tank as a FOWLR for maybe around two months, is it OK if I put medications in the tank? Will it affect all the fish and make it hard for my corals to survive once I add them eventually?


Thanks.

 

[atoll]

@Ziona
Like I say I have not kept a beta and would only not trust them with the very small fish you don't intend to keep.
Regarding RGs they are prone to white spot when first introduced mainly due to stress and poor feeding once removed from the reef following which they are reasonably hardy IME. It's the initial introduction and first weeks until settled and well fed that they are most at risk.

I never add any meds to my tank and not for 30 years or so. I do dip my corals for 30 seconds before introduction but that's it. I once had flat worms but they disappeared of their own accord.

 

[Paul B]

I totally agree with Atoll except not in a British Accent.
I can usually, but not always tell if a fish was drugged, I wrote about that in my book and sometimes fish actually look better after they were drugged sort of like some Rap singers.

It all depends on how much of the drug they were affected by so some fish will get over it, others won't and we can't always tell which is which but the fish sometimes has some tell tale signs.

But basically a new fish usually hides for a while depending on the type of fish. A hippo tang may hide for a week. My sunburst anthius hid for 3 weeks and some fish, like my 2 possum wrasses I have for years are still hiding so you have to know if hiding is something that fish normally does.

If I see a fish I want and it looks like it will be healthy I buy it not caring where it's from. Copperband butterflies only come from the South Pacific so if I want one, I have to get it from there.

Most fish now are not drugged and I have seen them captured on reefs usually with huge traps that they set on a reef.

On many Islands most of those larger fish are eaten and the small ones are sold to us.

On Saint Lucia I saw a guy bring in his net full of fish and he dumped them on the sand for the locals to buy for 50 cents a pound for food. People got to eat and here in New York we eat flounders, fluke, porgies, stripped bass etc. In the Caribbean they eat flying fish,tangs, angels, look downs and moray eels.

It broke my heart to see all those beautiful fish dying on the sand but thats the way of the world and people (and everything else) eats fish.

I also saw a guy fishing using land hermit crabs, like we buy for pets as bait. His two little kids were patiently sitting there waiting for Dad to catch breakfast.

Years ago in Jamaica I saw corals drying in the sun for tourists. The pile of living corals was about 4' high and fifty feet long. Now there are hardly any more living corals off that Island, I wonder why.

But like I said, people got to eat and if your kids are hungry, you will do anything.

So as to your question, I feel that when a fish stops hiding (depending on the species) and was not quarantined or medicated, as that can open up a new set of problems, the fish should live out it's natural lifespan as long as you feed it "correctly" with foods that contain living bacteria at least occasionally.

If a fish was medicated, it also depends on what medication was used, for how long and in what dosage as most medications can destroy the stomach bacteria which is what actually causes fish diseases, not the other way around and a fish may succumb before it has a chance to rebuild it's bacteria. Of course if the fish is put in a sterile environment for a long time, it will never recover that bacteria and that fish will not survive unless it finds enough food with living bacteria in it's tank.
It's bacteria that run the world, not Supermodels, Sports figures or cell phones.

Many people only have a reef for 5 or 6 years so they don't know if their system is truly healthy because that is not even half the lifespan of a hermit crab. (I keep hermit crabs about 12 years so I assume that may be their lifespan but they may live longer)

This new guy ate right away and didn't hide at all. I have him maybe a month or 6 weeks so far.
He is so colorful he looks fake.

 

[atoll]

@Zionas
There is one thing I used Paul doesn't that I firmly believe in and have been using for around 30 years (again) that 8is an Oxydator. Paul I think uses Ozone with which the Oxydator shares some similarities. Basically an Oxydator raises the oxygen level of the DT to optimum levels, raises reducing doing so and helps clean the water in a similar way to an ozoniser.

Paul is a little older than me and doesn't understand this new fangled technology
BTW Paul In don't have a British accent I have a Scouse accent as I am from Liverpool, I also don't wear a bowler hat nor have a Beatles haircut.

 

[Paul B]

Atoll, didn't the Beatles come from Liverpool? They sound British to me. But then again I watch "the Good Doctor" and he is English but hides his accent. So many British actors hide that accent perfectly and it seems so weird to me to hear them speak normally.

As for your oxidator, if you remember I had this conversation with Albert Thiel a few years ago where I built one just for giggles.
I didn't see that it did anything useful, for me anyway so I must have made something else out of it. Maybe a distillery.

My ozonizer broke before I moved here 2 years ago but I want to get another one. I know a lot of people feel the ozonizer is the secret to my fish health but they are feeling wrong. And if they do feel it is Ozone, then they should do that.

What the heck is a "Scouse" accent? I have a Brooklyn accent as I was born there. Right near the Coney Island Aquarium.

This morning I made some "Paleo" waffles. No wheat flour or sugar. We don't eat that "usually".
I got some fresh "nuked" blueberries and apples on there.

 

[atoll]

Yes if course the Beatles came from Liverool as I do. We are known as Scouse or Scousers, it's a long story but Google it if interested.
I do recall your attempted a DIY Oxydator but am not sure you got it right and may have been running your ozoniser at the same time?
I am not suggesting my Oxydator is the secret to my success far from it, it's just an aid like a skimmer or ozoniser are aids.

 

[NDIrish]

@atoll
I'm interested in the Oxydator. I like the concept of dosing H2O2 slowly and on a continuous basis rather than dumping it all in at one time.
I can't seem to find one or how to make one for 125g tank.
I did the googling with not very much luck except for smaller ones for nano tanks.
Any help or direction would be appreciated.
Thanks

 

[atoll]

@atoll
I'm interested in the Oxydator. I like the concept of dosing H2O2 slowly and on a continuous basis rather than dumping it all in at one time.
I can't seem to find one or how to make one for 125g tank.
I did the googling with not very much luck except for smaller ones for nano tanks.
Any help or direction would be appreciated.
Thanks

Am in the UK and readily available online here so not much use to you. The DIY ones don't seem to work so well.
However, I understand there is now a US and Canadian supplier an LFS that sells live shrimps if I recall correctly.

 

[Paul B]

Although we live on a 120 mile long Island and I live on the east end, it is still about 45 minutes for us to go all the way out east on the North Fork of the Island where we live. WE just went out there and explored many beaches that I never knew were there. We had lunch on this one.



My wife can't walk on the sand so we had to stay on the pavement. Connecticut is probably 27 miles across from here.

Then we went to a Park at Orient Point right next to the Plum Island Ferry. I think Orient point is the most eastern part of the US beside Montauk Point which is on the South Fork of Long Island.

This is the road that goes to Orient Beach State park and that is Plum Island in the background where the Government did animal experiments with incurable diseases and all sorts of Nasty nerve poisons etc.

Now the Lab there is closed and they don't know what to do with the Island. Being what they did there, I don't want to live there but it is prime real estate and may be developed. (No Thanks)
Nelson DeMille wrote a book titled "Plum Island" about it.



This afternoon we are hosting an Anti Corona Virus party.
It will be outside in my driveway. The neighbors will all bring their own chairs, drinks, glasses and snacks. I provide the music.
We will all be at least 6' apart.

 

[Paul B]

Even at 29 years old, these fireclowns still lay eggs every 10 days or so. I don't know where they get the energy.

 

[atoll]

You live in a nice part of the world Paul. We are similarly lucky living in North Wales with lots of nice beaches. However, they well visited in summer. Our favourite place to visit is Llandudno pronounced clan dud no LI is Cl in Welsh. The Welsh fight to keep their language alive. Every roadsign here has to be in both English and Welsh. Where we live the first language is English followed by Polish not Welsh
We live in a place called Connah's Quay. Here is the town sign welcoming people coming into it.