Tell me about your Low Nutrient / ULN system that doesn't have dinos

[taricha]

I'm intimately familiar with the most common story about dino outbreaks: PO4 was pushed very low (most often by GFO) to get rid of some algae, and voila - the characteristic brown bubbly slime of a dinoflagellate outbreak followed.
The problem is that this story, and reading the nuisance algae forums gives me a sort of a (reverse) survivorship bias. I'm most familiar with the circumstances of those with dino issues. But I know very little about the systems that can run quite low PO4/NO3/Both and never have dino issues.
There is probably a good bit to learn from those systems. Even if answers aren't obvious.

So tell me about your happy coral systems with low nutrients and no dinos. Feel free to point to some great tanks that fit the bill that others have written up as well.
Thanks!

 

[Miami Reef]

@jda keeps very low phosphates in his tank. Maybe 1-3ppb if I remembered correctly.

Zeovit tanks don’t usually get dinos for some reason. Maybe it’s the carbon dosing? This was an interesting thread and I’m not sure you read it (very recent): https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagelates-a-disruptive-treatment.926454/

 

[Johnz]

Yeah, I've been wondering about this too. I keep seeing posts of people warning not to let nutrients get too low. And people actually dose nitrates and phosphates now which I am having a hard time wrapping my head around. I mean, just feed your fish. ULNs does not necessarily equal dinos.

Just feed yo fish.

 

[njreefkeeper]

“Back in the day” many people (myself included) jumped on the bandwagon of a new methodology...the idea of taking perfectly good live rock, dumping it in a trash can of RODI water and pouring in a gallon of muriatic acid to kill EVERYTHING on the live rock; from bacteria to any algae and pests. Then we’d add it back to a tank, dump in a bottle of Microbacter7, stick in some fish, feed them heavily and start carbon dosing with vodka, white vinegar, sugar or a combination thereof to take nutrients to undetectable levels.

Funny thing is, none of us got dinoflagellates even though we were essentially 100% dry rock.

It’s my anecdotal experience and observation that bacteria in a bottle works in cycling a tank, but isn’t very effective at seriously colonizing bacterial beds like live rock or carbon dosing can. Turbo charging bacteria into multiplying like mad through carbon dosing seems to outcompete dinoflagellates from ever taking hold even in an ultra low nutrient environment. And that’s actually a tricky term. Just because you’re measuring ULNS doesn’t mean it’s done correctly. Someone who feeds very little and keeps undetectable nutrients is a far cry from someone who feeds heaving and still has undetectable levels. The corals will
look vastly different. I believe the key is in establishing that biome as fast as possible. There’s a misconception I feel that’s getting all too trendy lately of letting nitrates and phosphates rise in an effort to stave off dinoflagellates...but I feel the method is flawed. Just because you’re letting your tank get “dirtier” doesn’t seem to help with dinos: especially when you’re dosing nitrate and phosphate. You’re basically circumventing the entire denitrification and ammonia process; which is in essence what creates a need for more bacteria in the first place. So, with a lot of help through carbon dosing and heavy feeding of a good amount of fish, I feel dinos simply won’t ever get a foot hold since bacteria have a huge head start.

My .02

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I agree with above that if you have a robust and we'll established microbiome you can get away with a lot without a lot of negative consequences like dinos

 

[Screwgunner]

I ran a diy algea scrubber . Started my system with it and had 0's across the board. Feed alot of food. But got dinnos after 1 year . I cut my screens down considerably now I have .05 phosphates and 10 nitrates and my coral started growing like crazy. So, you keep your 0's they are not for me.

 

[Dan_P]

I'm intimately familiar with the most common story about dino outbreaks: PO4 was pushed very low (most often by GFO) to get rid of some algae, and voila - the characteristic brown bubbly slime of a dinoflagellate outbreak followed.
The problem is that this story, and reading the nuisance algae forums gives me a sort of a (reverse) survivorship bias. I'm most familiar with the circumstances of those with dino issues. But I know very little about the systems that can run quite low parameters and never have dino issues.
There is probably a good bit to learn from those systems. Even if answers aren't obvious.

So tell me about your happy coral systems with low nutrients and no dinos. Feel free to point to some great tanks that fit the bill that others have written up as well.
Thanks!

Great question! Are ULN systems a thing anymore?

 

[Dan_P]

Thinking out loud…

The low PO4 might just be a correlation. Doesn’t it seem awfully lucky that we can explain excessive benthic microorganism growth with exactly one water chemistry parameter?

 

[ScottB]

I'm intimately familiar with the most common story about dino outbreaks: PO4 was pushed very low (most often by GFO) to get rid of some algae, and voila - the characteristic brown bubbly slime of a dinoflagellate outbreak followed.
The problem is that this story, and reading the nuisance algae forums gives me a sort of a (reverse) survivorship bias. I'm most familiar with the circumstances of those with dino issues. But I know very little about the systems that can run quite low parameters and never have dino issues.
There is probably a good bit to learn from those systems. Even if answers aren't obvious.

So tell me about your happy coral systems with low nutrients and no dinos. Feel free to point to some great tanks that fit the bill that others have written up as well.
Thanks!

I was actually meaning to ping you regarding that article that @Miami Reef linked. I found it interesting, and I have actually restarted carbon dosing. (I have a lot of nutrient to spare).

It is starting to drop my nutrients (as expected). The most interesting CHANGE I noticed a week or two in was a very noticeable increase in bacterial slime coating on otherwise clean/smooth surfaces. Clean the glass at night and it has a distinctive slime coat by morning. Swap a dirty MP40 for a clean one? Same thing.

Bacterial slime coats seem to be VERY effective surface competitors. Maybe better than dinoflagellates? Seems a reasonable hypothesis.

As to @jda , he has a lot of nutrient throughput IIRC. Really chums for the fish. Big and very mature biome as well.

 

[Acros]

My tank sits at 0 nitrates and 0.04 phosphates after heavy feeding. I just can’t bring it up any more regardless of how much I feed (within reason).

Note: I had dinos two times in the past when I used fluconazole.

 

[radfly]

“Back in the day” many people (myself included) jumped on the bandwagon of a new methodology...the idea of taking perfectly good live rock, dumping it in a trash can of RODI water and pouring in a gallon of muriatic acid to kill EVERYTHING on the live rock; from bacteria to any algae and pests. Then we’d add it back to a tank, dump in a bottle of Microbacter7, stick in some fish, feed them heavily and start carbon dosing with vodka, white vinegar, sugar or a combination thereof to take nutrients to undetectable levels.

Funny thing is, none of us got dinoflagellates even though we were essentially 100% dry rock.

It’s my anecdotal experience and observation that bacteria in a bottle works in cycling a tank, but isn’t very effective at seriously colonizing bacterial beds like live rock or carbon dosing can. Turbo charging bacteria into multiplying like mad through carbon dosing seems to outcompete dinoflagellates from ever taking hold even in an ultra low nutrient environment. And that’s actually a tricky term. Just because you’re measuring ULNS doesn’t mean it’s done correctly. Someone who feeds very little and keeps undetectable nutrients is a far cry from someone who feeds heaving and still has undetectable levels. The corals will
look vastly different. I believe the key is in establishing that biome as fast as possible. There’s a misconception I feel that’s getting all too trendy lately of letting nitrates and phosphates rise in an effort to stave off dinoflagellates...but I feel the method is flawed. Just because you’re letting your tank get “dirtier” doesn’t seem to help with dinos: especially when you’re dosing nitrate and phosphate. You’re basically circumventing the entire denitrification and ammonia process; which is in essence what creates a need for more bacteria in the first place. So, with a lot of help through carbon dosing and heavy feeding of a good amount of fish, I feel dinos simply won’t ever get a foot hold since bacteria have a huge head start.

My .02

Carbon dosing with NP Bacto Balance is when I first observed cyano and dino when po dropped below .01, I am now dosing po and nitrate, and it is going away.

 

[GarrettT]

Great question! Are ULN systems a thing anymore?

Yes and not by choice.

Currently dealing with small cell amphidinium. I’ve beaten it once by dosing silicate, and will again, but it’s crazy how fast it can come back if you let po4 get too low. Once it gets a foothold, I find po4 gets depleted much quicker.

 

[RichReef]

Personally I am beginning to think the dinos are in the bottles of magic.

I had dinos twice in 2 different tanks and I fixed it by driving to every LFS in a 2 hour drive and buying LR and a cup of sand from their systems. Both times it was gone in 2 weeks.

I have an ULNS and it's jammed packed full of coral. There is no chance at adding anything new. Algae doesn't stand a chance. Dinos don't stand a chance. The coral will consume it. Nom Noms. Yummy, Yummy. I have to clean my ATS every 3 months, if that, because the corals are yumming everything.

In a 55gallon.

Yellow Tang
Purple Tang
Large Percula
Coral Beauty
Large Starry Blenny
Flame Angel
Flasher Wrasse
Yellow Coris Wrasse
Yellow Watchman
Adult Pistol Shrimp
2 Cleaner Shrimp
Fire Shrimp

So it's not like there aren't any fish.


Ever notice that almost all ULNS systems are packed with coral?

I still think the zero nutrients is the way and it's my way. I think when you add nutrients and your coral responds positively it's due to an underlying problem. It's not the nutrients you are dosing the coral is responding to, it's something else that's either inside what you are dosing or something is swinging because you are dosing. I don't know what. I'm not a chemist. It's just what I believe.

I will continue to strive for zero nutrients.

I went down the dosing nutrient rabbit hole because my corals were off. After reading what everyone was saying on here I decided to try it. It looked like things were better at first. Was a mistake that led to things getting worse. But in the end it was low iodine. My ATS was wiping out my iodine.

I could be wrong but it's what it working for me.

 

[TheDragonsReef]

My frag tank. I dont really understand it myself. But grows everything i put in it. 0 nitrates and phosphates. Alk is 5.5 dkh (bringing it up slowly, was 5 at the lowest). No water changes, i have a skimmer just for ph, cup drains right back into the tank, i feed it like crazy and cant get any nutrients out of it.

 

[X-37B]

All my tanks have live rock.
I run <5 no3 <.1 po4.
Just tested one system and got
No3-1 po4-0.03. I have always fed heavy and only the fish. I do feed the anemone and scoly.

 

[ReefGeezer]

Nature abhors a vacuum. When relatively sterile systems with little inorganic nutrients are loaded with organic compounds, Nature sends in the bacteria. Certain cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates are usually her foot soldiers. These guys will fill the vacuum until organisms that compete for the same organic compounds win out. Things like corals and heterotrophic bacteria come to mind.

Dry rock and bottled bacteria may set up this scenario. Inorganic nitrogen is limited by the rush of nitrifying/denitrifying bacteria; phosphate is being bound by the new dry rock and is also not available; few, if any heterotrophic organisms are present; and plenty of organic compounds are being added trying to acclimate new fish and get them to eat. It is the perfect storm. Add a little light and it becomes the perfect hurricane!

 

[sixty_reefer]

@taricha is not just the low nutrients that will create event where dinoflagellates can bloom, we can get dinoflagellates with higher nutrients also. I did try and explain in previous threads the cause, although discussing how nutrients work in our systems is fairly complicated as they exist in many forms.

the simple answer to your question is NPK and trace elements they the cause for dinoflagellates to bloom in our system. Nitrogen phosphates and potassium also known in farming as NPK fertilisers is the direct cause of many dinoflagellates in our oceans as it’s the perfect type of fertiliser for most species of phytoplankton, that includes dinoflagellates they also a type of phytoplankton.

NPK and trace elements allows dinoflagellates to bloom in our systems I’m the same manner, is not the zero nutrients that cause the bloom alone is several factors that will contribute to the event. JDA current system will most likely never have dinoflagellates and the reason is that he can manage NPK like no one else, he has a vast amount of coral that will utilise all the macro nutrients faster than the dinoflagellates can, now reefer joe that had only a handful of coral and a algae issue won’t be able to replicate what JDA does as they won’t have enough coral to manage NPK.

in the most common situation that is, low to zero nitrates and phosphates NPK becomes the main nutrient in a system, as Randy will tell you organic phosphates won’t stay organic for to long in a closed system, although if that organic phosphates is being assimilated by the dinoflagellates it will never become inorganic phosphates and therefore affecting the heterotrophic bacteria for growth as they will need inorganic phosphates. The same is happening at the nitrogen level, nitrates before becoming nitrates are in several organic forms known as nitrogen dinoflagellates will be able to utilise it and dominate the system as once more heterotrophic bacteria has become limited in nitrates and if the dinoflagellates are assimilating all the nitrogen forms that system won’t be able to produce nitrates. This is why feeding heavy during a dinoflagellates outbreak doesn’t help much as the first nutrients available in our system will be in the organic form.

why dosing silica works for some is also down to NPK, diatoms is limited in our systems by silica most marine biologist argue that silica should be considered a macro nutrient for that reason. Diatoms will not be competing with dinoflagellates for space in a tank with little to no coral, diatoms will be competing with dinoflagellates for NPK.

 

[Dan_P]

Yes and not by choice.

Currently dealing with small cell amphidinium. I’ve beaten it once by dosing silicate, and will again, but it’s crazy how fast it can come back if you let po4 get too low. Once it gets a foothold, I find po4 gets depleted much quicker.

Were you able to see the particular dinoflagellate that is tormenting you with a microscope? I ask because I am interested in knowing whether there is a co-pest growing with it, like a cyanobacteria.

 

[GarrettT]

Were you able to see the particular dinoflagellate that is tormenting you with a microscope? I ask because I am interested in knowing whether there is a co-pest growing with it, like a cyanobacteria.

Well there are multiple types of dinos that I have in my system, like every single one lol, but small cell always seems to outcompete the LCA. Checking on the cyano tonight, as I’m curious as well, just lazy….

 

[Rick5]

My non-scientific theory (based on multiple tanks) is that live rock eliminates (or at least greatly reduces) the likelihood of dinos, and is the only way I have been able to maintain lower nutrients without dinos. The one exception is when I was running a Zeovit tank with dry rock, but even then, that's when I was housing wild and maricultured coral (which could have conceivably brought in bacterial diversity from the ocean). This latter point, I think, is Anthony's argument.

I was dissatisfied with the live rock in my tank and found a vendor who was selling Australian live rock. I ordered 25 lbs. and exchanged all my old rock for new rock. I dosed Prime daily just in case for two weeks. The tank has a few dozen SPS frags . I have found that I can keep Alk high with low nutrients (without burnt tips) and even high-ish (LED) PAR (475-ish). Whereas with the old rock, if my Alk got to 8, I'd have burnt tips (even with a seemingly non-ULNS phosphate and nitrate range.

I'm presently keeping Alk at 9.5, Nitrate at 2.5 and Phoshate at .04 (or thereabouts), while feeding 2-3 cubes a day. The frags are noticeably growing and (knock on wood), I have not seen any dinos. I also dose a very small amount of diluted lanthanum chloride daily.

Needless to say, it's really nice once again being able to have the flexibility to keep Alk and the other levels where I want them without burnt tips, dinos and the like. I hope this continues to be the case with this tank.

What's odd is that the tank's glass needs cleaning at least three times a day (despite zero TDS RO/DI). This isn't a green water situation, as the water is fairly clear given that I am not running carbon - although I dose a little Zeo coral snow purely for water clarity. I just ordered a 15w UV sterilizer and Sicce 1.0 in the hope that I can reduce the amount and frequency of glass cleanings, as 2-3 times a day isn't fun.

This is largely what I've parroted in the past, including when I detailed my dino experience on here (before I relocated and set this tank back up). Thought it was worth sharing and pertinent to the OP's post.

Edit: I should add that I built up to the few dozen or so SPS frags, but admittedly put some tester frags in the same day as the rock exchange. The only thing I've lost was (my first) princess peach frag (due to shipping) which I have since replaced and a baseball to softball sized purple tipped nana (due to excessive flow in that area of the tank). I'm dealing with a small water volume and am replacing one of my two powerheads with a wave box to hopefully not have to deal with this issue again.