THANK YOU APEX FOR LETTING ME QUIT THE HOBBY

[tastyfish]

AWhen I go on vacation, I plug my Gyre Pumps into an outside power source away from Apex. In event of failure of Apex, water flow would continue and you tank would have some sort of water circulation.... Just food for thought....

Always have redundancy.

For example, my return pump is now plugged into a seperate socket and not on the Apex, as is one of my cross flows.

So if I lose the controller, I don't lose all the flow.

 

[DarthSimon]

Exactly.... My Gyre's are controlled simply by an Energy Bar outlet for purposes of feed mode, but If I am away, it will be on seperate outlet to ensure water movement.

I do own an apex but instead of blaming equipment that can fail. Maybe it would be better to talk about redundancy in a reef tank.

For example I have a heater stashed in my overflow box with its own thermostat on a different plug in separate from the power bar that’s set at 75 degrees. (Lesson learned from a return pump going out)

Heater in sump no longer controlled by the apex. ( lessons learned when temp prob failed on me once and a second time my ato stopped working on vacation)

Light runs on a separate controller. But par meter from apex allows me to see if it’s working from away.

My 2 gyres also rub separate from my apex.

 

[Ranjib]

Just wanted to share couple of things here,
I was watching reef builders video around this, and I think Mike Paletta or Dr Sanjay Joshi spoke about this as well, which I tend to agree. While it is possible to do all sorts of sophisticated controls, almost always its not a necessity and comes at an increased risk of failures. At the end, the effectiveness of a controller is not a function of its features, but a complex concoction of our setup, how we wire it, and our personal aptitude with these systems (controller).

I would also agree with @Lasse that the state of reef controllers are way way lagging compared to industrial PLCs (though I feel this is due to reef keeping being a niche hobby with relatively small consumer base, but i may be wrong).
My lessons from this:
- Educate users of the fact that a controller is not a necessity, but adds an extra level of protection or ease. The effectiveness of this vary depending on your tank setup & chores. Bring the focus back to reef keeping, and approach the controller usage from reliability perspective instead.
- If you are not sure, its almost always safer to run multiple individual controllers geared for specific tasks. This reduces the impact radius of things when they fail. i.e. an ink bird temperature controller, a dedicated dosing system, an independent power bar (controller) will be more robust but less sophisticated.
I am really sorry about your loss, I hope things recover in time. If you were local, I could have offered some free frags, and together as a community, we could rebuild the broken.

 

[ca1ore]

And while u guys sit there trying to figure it out your fish and corals are dyeing! Maybe I’m ranting but whatever the reason turns out to be ask yourself why doesn’t this happen to the GHL guys?

GHL may well be a more reliable option, but absent any actual data, it is pure supposition on your part. As to 'corals and fish dying (correct spelling)' that's just another foolish statement. Does this look like dying ......

 

[ca1ore]

A more sensible debate is whether complex automation helps or hinders. I'm heavily 'invested' in apex, but I also have implemented many forms of redundancy that will keep my tank going even if the controller fails. I also NEVER use the controller to add stuff, only as a monitor and alerting device .... well other than half my heaters and one of my ATO devices. That would be an intelligent debate rather than foolish rants.

 

[Lasse]

@Ranjib

It was not me that state that - it was Gerybeard.

However I have also been working with automation outside the hobby.

I know that every system has its limitation and it is humans that program the system. In one of my jobs a small bug destroyed heatpumps for more than $ 30 000. It took 6 months with observation of the system before we could see the tiny fault in the programming code. The correction took 1 minute - to find the fault took took 6 months and a lot of money.

I have no experiences with the Apex but have use another brand for many years and I'm very impressed of both what you can do with it and to what cost. I think that people that have used Apex for many years have the same experiences with that system.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[chefjpaul]

I had a major tank flood a bit ago, as My controller did its job and shut the system down when a union blew on my manifold, yet I did miss a critical program function and it didn't work how I needed it to completely.

It was my fault, not double checking.
(Talk about thousands in damage and a forced downgrade)

My controller, & yes I have used them all, are ONLY a convenience and a bit of safety, NOT the only safety, NOT only to be relied upon as an end all be all, but for secondary & redundancies.
I now own the controller I want for it's conveniences and ease of mind rather reliability.

They are a tool, a convenient tool, a fun tool, but just a tool, in the end we are responsible for our own systems redundancies and tools, as all tools can and will fail.

 

[Mark Gray]

Sorry for your loss, I really depend on my Apex, I am away not for a real long time 2 to 4 weeks at a time, So far Apex has worked out well for me. So good my 2nd one will be online soon.

 

[Ranjib]

@Ranjib

It was not me that state that - it was Gerybeard.

However I have also been working with automation outside the hobby.

I know that every system has its limitation and it is humans that program the system. In one of my jobs a small bug destroyed heatpumps for more than $ 30 000. It took 6 months with observation of the system before we could see the tiny fault in the programming code. The correction took 1 minute - to find the fault took took 6 months and a lot of money.

I have no experiences with the Apex but have use another brand for many years and I'm very impressed of both what you can do with it and to what cost. I think that people that have used Apex for many years have the same experiences with that system.

Sincerely Lasse

Oops, my apologies.

 

[Greybeard]

My Apex does temp control... and if it fails that, I've got a real problem. Some research on the AutoAqua Smart Temp is on my TODO list... as an added level of safety. Anybody run one of these between the Apex and the heater? No problems powering it up/down all the time?

Outside of that, the Apex handles lights, wave pumps, skimmer... stuff that doesn't really matter much if the Apex dumps. My ATO reservoir refill system, and my mixing station refill system, neither of those directly affect the tank, and both have a mechanical float valve in place to catch a flood. ATO itself is a Tunze stand alone, with the Apex alerting and disconnecting if sump level rises. Dosing (Kalk + ESV B-Ionic) is a stand alone dosing pump, with Apex alerting and disconnecting on pH swing.

About as safe and redundant as I know how to make it... except for that heater.

 

[Sin City Coral Addict]

Condolences. Sucks man. **** happens. I still love my apex as its the most reliable things I have seen so far for my very elaborate system. 4 eb8s and no restarts or issues in years. I offer to send some free frags when you are ready for any.

 

[DLHDesign]

So if the energy bar goes out, wouldn't the brain lose connection, and hence, the heartbeat notification?

I didn't see that this was answered, but no - that's not how the heartbeat works.
The heartbeat is when Neptune (from their servers) "pings" (quickly tries to connect to without doing anything) the Apex brain to see if it responds*. If it does, then it can be assumed that the brain can effectively send out notifications (not technically always the case, but close enough for the use case), so this is the only alert that needs to function this way. If no response is received, then it's assumed that the brain can't send out notifications itself, so the Neptune servers will send out a "heartbeat failure" alert. There is a delay involved between the two because all sorts of temporary situations can occur that resolve themselves. It would be nice if the heartbeat delay could be configured, of course, but that's a more complicated thing to offer than it might seem on the face of it.

This is the kind of feature (heartbeat check) that you can get when there is a company supporting a product. I've no idea if GHL offers this feature?

(* - There is another way (likely several) that they could handle the heartbeat feature (which is actually something close to the reverse of the above), but the result is the same - the notification comes from their servers; not the brain.)

 

[WWIII]

In all seriousness, very sorry for your losses from the powerbar failure. I do use an aquarium controller, but also try to add redundancy for the major items (2 heaters on 2 seperate circuits, multiple powerheads on seperate circuits, etc...) That said, it's very difficult to plan for every possible failure, especially when we are away for any extended period of time. I hope that you don't take my meme the wrong way, also really hope you are able to overcome this equipment failure and stay in this hobby we all love! ... most of the time anyways.

 

[Rakie]

That sucks, I have 2x eb8 classics. Going on a few years now with no problems. *knock on wood

I have an EB8 that's a little more than a year old. One day channel 6 decided it wasn't going to automate anymore -- It's just going to be on all the time, or physically off. If that happened to be a dumb doser (like say the BRS 1.1) or a heater without a controller (like say, a Finnex 800w Titanium heater)... Yeah, that would be the end of things for that whole tank.

Luckily it was my sump light....

 

[dealseer]

People won’t understand the comparatively low quality of Neptune Apex until something like this happens to them. I’m so glad I switched to GHL.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

I disagree. It's a piece of electronic equipment that is incredibly expensive for what it is. The quality and longevity should match the price. This is exactly why I dont use APEX anymore. The idea is that it's "cheap insurance" for your pets/corals and fish. The problem is its fraught with issues and overcomplicates an otherwise simple system.[/QUOTE

AGREED

 

[Cherub]

Get a GHL P4 next time around!

I'm liking my eKoral too. Anything but apex...

 

[BigJohnny]

Just wanting to toss in my $0.02 on this...

I'm an industrial controls engineer, deal with very extensive, and expensive, automated controls, and have been doing so for many years.

I long resisted the push to buy an aquarium controller. Why? That's my JOB... I don't want to deal with this sort of thing as part of my hobby, too! A while back, I was looking at a heater controller (I DO NOT TRUST HEATERS!), and stumbled upon BRS's video discussing use of the Reefkeeper Lite as a heater controller. Price wise, it's not much more than a decent heater controller, some light timers, and a good power strip... why not. Bought one.

Once installed, my techie background took over, and I started seeing all sorts of things I could do with such a simple unit. Bought an extra PB4, and started setting up some simple, but helpful automation. Within 6 months, it crashed. PB4's started loosing communication to the base for no apparent reason, resetting them would make it work again, for a day or three. When offline, the PB4 was not obeying the offline condition rules I had in place... caught my heater stuck on, temp about 2 degrees high... That's what I bought it to prevent! Several attempts to contact DA were unsuccessful, email address from their site was returning email as undeliverable, there is no phone number... couldn't get approval to create an account on to their forum... enough is enough.

I bought an Apex (classic). So far, so good. I do keep reading posts like this one, where things go south, and major problems occur, but to this point, (knock on wood), I've not experienced any issues.

I must say, the state of the automation industry is way, way beyond this kind of garbage. I can buy a 'brick' plc with 8 digital inputs, 2 analog inputs, 6 relay outputs, RS232/485, and an ethernet port for around $100, adding as much I/O to it as I might want for a few more bucks. These devices are STABLE. No, they're not easy to program, ain't no wizards around here, you've got to learn ladder logic... but you can be sure, barring a power outage, that the inputs and outputs will do what you've told them to do. Problem is... there isn't anyone making a pre-built power bar that can be controlled by this sort of device. You've got to design and build your own power distribution system. That's where the DIY controller projects appear to be, as well.. ReefPI and so forth. Buying a Raspberry PI is cheap, programming them is pretty simple, but nobody wants a huge Frankenstein looking power distribution system under their aquarium.

I'd _love_ to see a reasonably inexpensive, pre-built power strip, based on a known, open protocol (RS485, ModBus, there's dozens of protocols that could work) that could be controlled by just about any DIY controller. Maybe one day. A quick search did turn up one ModBus controlled power distribution device... but it was not what I would call inexpensive.

I suppose, if my Apex ever goes weird on me, I may well do just that. Build myself a panel big enough to house 8x duplex outlets, and wire it up. Hm. May do it anyway, just as something to play with.

You should create this system my friend.

 

[Scorpius]

Been reefing since 2014. Have only had heater failures due to my ignorance and a Ranco Controller fried itself on me. Been using a Cobalt heater all by itself for over a year now with no issues. I will never use a controller as it adds just more failure points to an already complex system.

 

[Dom274]

Switching controllers won't help if the flaw isn't the controller...

Read my most recent post here:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/considering-a-change-from-apex-to-ghl.390228/

I feel bad now for forgetting to respond last week. I could have saved you a headache.

I'm not here to be a fanboy, but I don't believe switching to GHL will solve the problem(s) you are running into. I could type up a paragraph explaining why you should listen to my IT advice, but would it really make a difference lol? Nobody listens to IT it seems hahaha.

A generator is great, but you are missing a critical piece that is causing you issues. Any tank controller should absolutely, positively, no exceptions, be on a backup battery (In addition to a generator if applicable). The backup battery is not intended to run the tank for anything more than a couple min (Though it can go much longer if you wanted), in order to give the equipment a chance to turn off or "Fail gracefully". Another reason is that a tank controller is basically a mini-computer that loads a custom OS dedicated to a specific function. These IOT devices use what's called flash memory to store their data, which can be very sensitive to heat and power issues. Most people over-look this nowadays because we are used to using cell phones, laptops and tablets which have built-in batteries, eliminating the need for a backup battery. If you still run a desktop though, you are probably familiar with what a power outage does to a running computer. The same thing happens to a controller - Say your AC and fridge turn on at the same time, dropping the voltage from 120ish to 90ish (I'm just making this up). You would probably never notice a 25% power fluctuation, maybe the lights dimmed ever so slightly, but any device that uses flash memory (Modem, router, wireless cameras, cable box, etc) very likely locked itself up and needs a reboot (Best case senario), or has corrupted files (Worst case).

At the very least, use something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/APC-Battery-Protector-Back-UPS-BE425M/dp/B01HDC236Q/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1527298115&sr=8-3&keywords=apc+battery+backup+&+surge+protector+450

Our lighting setups can be power hogs so I'm not sure if 450VA would be enough for anything other than small or med sized tanks. These cheaper units also lack features, like the ability to turn off the on battery alarm that can be annoying, so I would highly recommend a little bit more...

I would recomend something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AX9Z7R4/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_9?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

With the LCD panel, you get much more info regarding the input voltage, unit health & operations as well as much more juice to last longer.


You should also add an additional power cord to the controller so it can sense the power outage and take appropriate measures. For Apex, it's a simple check box is the Misc settings I believe - and the below power cable that goes from the "Surge only" outlet to the controller head unit (Not sure what it is for GHL).

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/12v-power-supply-neptune-systems.html




I'll grab some pictures of my setup later tonight as well if it helps.