The 240g is Imminent: Budgeting Stocking

[Wandering Albatross]

Hey all, if this job works out the way I expect it to at months’ end, I’ll be pulling the trigger on the IM 240g EXT (+75g sump) Complete Reef System. I’ve already worked out my rough budget for essential equipment to get my cycle going, now I’m trying to reign myself in to narrow down my stocking options so I can budget those. Many of you have probably seen my previous threads asking about various large/aggressive species compatibility, but now I want to bring those all together and get some feedback/ask some questions.

Below is a list of my preferred, but risky, stock, with the option to remove/ change some.

*this is intended to be my most aggressive tank, way more so then my 50g; large show fish focused*

• Zebra eel 1-2
• Achilles tang
• Sohal tang
• Clown tang
• Sailfin or gem tang
• Blue hippo tang
• Humu or clown trigger
• Blue throat trigger pair (only option as pair)
• Dogface and/or porcupine puffer
• Maroon clown pair
• Emperor angel 1-2
• Lunare and/or rainbow or sunset or red breasted wrasse or red Coris wrasse
• Pre-established adult fox face

All fish of the same type would be added simultaneously, at the same size, unless a size difference will aid said species (ex medium blue throat pair and small humu or very small clown). Tang gang can be cut back, but I was thinking this might distribute the aggression better. If everyone can fight back, it’s riskier for the fish trying to pick a fight, and it may or may not help them learn to tolerate each other.

Open to additional ideas, but I am looking for large fish ideally 6”+ at maturity, either aggressive or large enough to intimidate a potential bully. A grouper would be nice, but I feel as though he’d outgrow everyone else too fast and proceed to eat them. I’d love a lion but this I fear would be much to nippy/intense for him. A large parrot would be cool, but I’ve heard bad things about their health and how they tend to waste away without live coral for grazing. In addition, I have 2 killer tominis that could both or either in theory be thrown in as the runt/s of the group. They’ve been dang-near bulletproof, I could probably run a fish-in cycle with them in something this size. I could also add the blue spot puffer, but she’s kinda small for this tank, especially with other puffers. My juvenile undulate trigger is getting an upgrade soon as well, so while I doubt I’d trust him in this tank, even with the planned bruisers there’d be, he may be young enough to test in an acclimation box for a spell, to see how he responds. He’s currently alone so I have no way to gauge his intentions towards other fish. He may get a school of cromis or damsels in the upgrade, see if he chooses violence on pre-established fish that are realistically no threat to him. Let’s just go with he’s staying in his own place and won’t be added to this tank.

Thoughts on the stocking, and who to swap/pare down? What size tank would I need to house all listed excluding the undulate, assuming filtration was supersized for the bioload of these huge fish?

 

[i cant think]

Hey all, if this job works out the way I expect it to at months’ end, I’ll be pulling the trigger on the IM 240g EXT (+75g sump) Complete Reef System. I’ve already worked out my rough budget for essential equipment to get my cycle going, now I’m trying to reign myself in to narrow down my stocking options so I can budget those. Many of you have probably seen my previous threads asking about various large/aggressive species compatibility, but now I want to bring those all together and get some feedback/ask some questions.

Below is a list of my preferred, but risky, stock, with the option to remove/ change some.

*this is intended to be my most aggressive tank, way more so then my 50g; large show fish focused*

• Zebra eel 1-2
• Achilles tang
• Sohal tang
• Clown tang
• Sailfin or gem tang
• Blue hippo tang
• Humu or clown trigger
• Blue throat trigger pair (only option as pair)
• Dogface and/or porcupine puffer
• Maroon clown pair
• Emperor angel 1-2
• Lunare and/or rainbow or sunset or red breasted wrasse or red Coris wrasse
• Pre-established adult fox face

All fish of the same type would be added simultaneously, at the same size, unless a size difference will aid said species (ex medium blue throat pair and small humu or very small clown). Tang gang can be cut back, but I was thinking this might distribute the aggression better. If everyone can fight back, it’s riskier for the fish trying to pick a fight, and it may or may not help them learn to tolerate each other.

Open to additional ideas, but I am looking for large fish ideally 6”+ at maturity, either aggressive or large enough to intimidate a potential bully. A grouper would be nice, but I feel as though he’d outgrow everyone else too fast and proceed to eat them. I’d love a lion but this I fear would be much to nippy/intense for him. A large parrot would be cool, but I’ve heard bad things about their health and how they tend to waste away without live coral for grazing. In addition, I have 2 killer tominis that could both or either in theory be thrown in as the runt/s of the group. They’ve been dang-near bulletproof, I could probably run a fish-in cycle with them in something this size. I could also add the blue spot puffer, but she’s kinda small for this tank, especially with other puffers. My juvenile undulate trigger is getting an upgrade soon as well, so while I doubt I’d trust him in this tank, even with the planned bruisers there’d be, he may be young enough to test in an acclimation box for a spell, to see how he responds. He’s currently alone so I have no way to gauge his intentions towards other fish. He may get a school of cromis or damsels in the upgrade, see if he chooses violence on pre-established fish that are realistically no threat to him. Let’s just go with he’s staying in his own place and won’t be added to this tank.

Thoughts on the stocking, and who to swap/pare down? What size tank would I need to house all listed excluding the undulate, assuming filtration was supersized for the bioload of these huge fish?

Instantly I would remove either the Achilles or both of the Sohal and Clown Tang. Also keeping Sohal with a Clown I’d be cautious due to them being on par with aggression and albeit both are stunning when big, they can result in hell later down the line.
Similarly with the Triggers, I’d recommend the Humuhumunukunukuapua’a and the Blue Throat pair and drop the Clown Trigger out altogether again due to the aggression.

I’d also reconsider the Puffer as they don’t always worth with angels due to becoming quite nippy around their fins IME. I’ve only got experience with the Arothron species at a shop level and not in my personal systems, but even in a shop environment they can become quite nippy around angelfish fins. Not only this, they can take up a bit more time compared to other fish and with plans for an eel already it could make your system more demanding than it already would be with large, high bioload species and one or two which likely will require spot feeding.

So altogether I’d do…
• Achilles (as the only aggressive Acanthurus)
• Orange Shoulder OR Vampire (these get to similar sizes as the Clown but lack that aggression that could eventually turn on an Achilles)
• Sailfin (as I see you want big fish, the Desjardini can become quite territorial so I would opt for the Velifer)
• Gem (I’d personally question this as I find too many dark/black fish and suddenly an Achilles may become more of a background fish)
• Blue Hippo (if this is an absolute must… personally I’d drop this out as they just lose the appeal when big, I currently have a 12 inch Hippo in a coral tray and it just doesn’t look as nice to me as the 6 inch one in another coral tray)
• Tomini (I’d chose one or the other and not both - if you want to try both, possibly use an acclimation box for one rather than releasing both into the system at the same time)
•Humuhumunukunukuapua’a or Blue Throat Pair (I’d go for the BT pair just from personal preference)
• Majestic Angel OR Blue Face Angel (Emperors get BIG, we don’t realise how big they get in this hobby, but some of the ones I’ve seen at wholesalers have been at that 16-18 inch length, whilst the biggest Blue Face ive seen has been 12-14 inches and the biggest Majestic was closer to 8-10 inches)
• Genicanthus pair (for me this would be a pair of Watanabeis or maybe Caudovittatus if you can find them)
• Flag Fin Angel (to add a bit more of the yellow into the tank as Yellow Tangs aren’t appealing to me personally)
• Magnificent Fox Face (this is personal preference assuming you have an option on which adult Fox)
• Maroon Clowns
• Mexican Rainbow Wrasse (these guys are smaller Thalassoma species, and I find they are more placid than the larger Lunares and Sunsets but still hold their own without causing major problems with other wrasses)
• Coris pictoides (I find so many people own the more common Coris species, but this is a personal favourite of mine with its sleek appearance of black on yellow, plus whilst it stays smaller, much like the Mexican Rainbow it will hold its own)

I can’t help much on the eel side of it @littlefoxx may be more help than me.

#reefsquad any of you got anything to add or maybe change?#reefsquad

 

[littlefoxx]

I would not have a sohal and a clown tang together, my clown tang is a menace and he is only 3-4 inches.

I would only do one emperor angel not two, those are massive and also mean.

I would take out both the clown trigger and huma, both are just pain evil and go on killing sprees. Ive had both, both rehomed for going crazy and killing fish. My clown trigger took out my 7 inch sohal one day. The huma bit the snout off a yellow tang. Like clean off and took out a blue jaw trigger the next day. Ripped him apart. I love triggers, one of my favorites but no more for me other than Lady my indian black trigger. Shes got a great temperment. I would stick to the blue jaws, a pink tail or even an indian black trigger like Lady! Shes a great looking fish.

I really like my lunar wrasse, he is super active and no issues with other fish.

You could do two zebra morays, morays actually like to be around others. Just make sure you add both at the same time and about the same size!

I thought I wanted a super aggressive tank until I had one and had murders, its just awful really. I would look into a few of the fish you want but I really would urge you to re think the tank idea, a 240 gallon is really small for all these aggressive fish together. I used to have a 300 gallon and that I wanted the same kind of tank with and I would not recommend again honestly. When I slowly rebuild my tank Im taking it a different route if that helps

 

[tbrown]

Instantly I would remove either the Achilles or both of the Sohal and Clown Tang. Also keeping Sohal with a Clown I’d be cautious due to them being on par with aggression and albeit both are stunning when big, they can result in hell later down the line.
Similarly with the Triggers, I’d recommend the Humuhumunukunukuapua’a and the Blue Throat pair and drop the Clown Trigger out altogether again due to the aggression.

I’d also reconsider the Puffer as they don’t always worth with angels due to becoming quite nippy around their fins IME. I’ve only got experience with the Arothron species at a shop level and not in my personal systems, but even in a shop environment they can become quite nippy around angelfish fins. Not only this, they can take up a bit more time compared to other fish and with plans for an eel already it could make your system more demanding than it already would be with large, high bioload species and one or two which likely will require spot feeding.

So altogether I’d do…
• Achilles (as the only aggressive Acanthurus)
• Orange Shoulder OR Vampire (these get to similar sizes as the Clown but lack that aggression that could eventually turn on an Achilles)
• Sailfin (as I see you want big fish, the Desjardini can become quite territorial so I would opt for the Velifer)
• Gem (I’d personally question this as I find too many dark/black fish and suddenly an Achilles may become more of a background fish)
• Blue Hippo (if this is an absolute must… personally I’d drop this out as they just lose the appeal when big, I currently have a 12 inch Hippo in a coral tray and it just doesn’t look as nice to me as the 6 inch one in another coral tray)
• Tomini (I’d chose one or the other and not both - if you want to try both, possibly use an acclimation box for one rather than releasing both into the system at the same time)
•Humuhumunukunukuapua’a or Blue Throat Pair (I’d go for the BT pair just from personal preference)
• Majestic Angel OR Blue Face Angel (Emperors get BIG, we don’t realise how big they get in this hobby, but some of the ones I’ve seen at wholesalers have been at that 16-18 inch length, whilst the biggest Blue Face ive seen has been 12-14 inches and the biggest Majestic was closer to 8-10 inches)
• Genicanthus pair (for me this would be a pair of Watanabeis or maybe Caudovittatus if you can find them)
• Flag Fin Angel (to add a bit more of the yellow into the tank as Yellow Tangs aren’t appealing to me personally)
• Magnificent Fox Face (this is personal preference assuming you have an option on which adult Fox)
• Maroon Clowns
• Mexican Rainbow Wrasse (these guys are smaller Thalassoma species, and I find they are more placid than the larger Lunares and Sunsets but still hold their own without causing major problems with other wrasses)
• Coris pictoides (I find so many people own the more common Coris species, but this is a personal favourite of mine with its sleek appearance of black on yellow, plus whilst it stays smaller, much like the Mexican Rainbow it will hold its own)

I can’t help much on the eel side of it @littlefoxx may be more help than me.

#reefsquad any of you got anything to add or maybe change?#reefsquad

Nope. I'd say between you and @littlefoxx it's covered.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

I would not have a sohal and a clown tang together, my clown tang is a menace and he is only 3-4 inches.

I would only do one emperor angel not two, those are massive and also mean.

I would take out both the clown trigger and huma, both are just pain evil and go on killing sprees. Ive had both, both rehomed for going crazy and killing fish. My clown trigger took out my 7 inch sohal one day. The huma bit the snout off a yellow tang. Like clean off and took out a blue jaw trigger the next day. Ripped him apart. I love triggers, one of my favorites but no more for me other than Lady my indian black trigger. Shes got a great temperment. I would stick to the blue jaws, a pink tail or even an indian black trigger like Lady! Shes a great looking fish.

I really like my lunar wrasse, he is super active and no issues with other fish.

You could do two zebra morays, morays actually like to be around others. Just make sure you add both at the same time and about the same size!

I thought I wanted a super aggressive tank until I had one and had murders, its just awful really. I would look into a few of the fish you want but I really would urge you to re think the tank idea, a 240 gallon is really small for all these aggressive fish together. I used to have a 300 gallon and that I wanted the same kind of tank with and I would not recommend again honestly. When I slowly rebuild my tank Im taking it a different route if that helps

Everyone on my list, save the murderous tominis, are in the ‘ones I really want’ list. That’s where the problem lies. The main reason I chose so many highly aggressive fish was with the theory that they would scrap in the beginning to establish hierarchy, then learn to coexist because they knew they couldn’t really pick on each other without major risk of getting hurt. High risk no doubt, but I figured it’d spread out the aggression. If it helps, I was planning to establish a sturdy, relatively peaceful, but still dominant fish before everyone else. He owns the tank, calls the shots, and ideally keeps the others in check as juveniles at least. Ideally, he has that size and home turf advantage that establishes control of the tank, without him feeling the need to beat up on the new baby fish. Everyone else would be added small.

That’s odd about the triggers, I’ve heard more to indicate that the humu was the more docile of the family. Clown I get, he was picked as an option for that aggression to be on par with the tangs and angels. Tried covering both bases.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Instantly I would remove either the Achilles or both of the Sohal and Clown Tang. Also keeping Sohal with a Clown I’d be cautious due to them being on par with aggression and albeit both are stunning when big, they can result in hell later down the line.
Similarly with the Triggers, I’d recommend the Humuhumunukunukuapua’a and the Blue Throat pair and drop the Clown Trigger out altogether again due to the aggression.

I’d also reconsider the Puffer as they don’t always worth with angels due to becoming quite nippy around their fins IME. I’ve only got experience with the Arothron species at a shop level and not in my personal systems, but even in a shop environment they can become quite nippy around angelfish fins. Not only this, they can take up a bit more time compared to other fish and with plans for an eel already it could make your system more demanding than it already would be with large, high bioload species and one or two which likely will require spot feeding.

So altogether I’d do…
• Achilles (as the only aggressive Acanthurus)
• Orange Shoulder OR Vampire (these get to similar sizes as the Clown but lack that aggression that could eventually turn on an Achilles)
• Sailfin (as I see you want big fish, the Desjardini can become quite territorial so I would opt for the Velifer)
• Gem (I’d personally question this as I find too many dark/black fish and suddenly an Achilles may become more of a background fish)
• Blue Hippo (if this is an absolute must… personally I’d drop this out as they just lose the appeal when big, I currently have a 12 inch Hippo in a coral tray and it just doesn’t look as nice to me as the 6 inch one in another coral tray)
• Tomini (I’d chose one or the other and not both - if you want to try both, possibly use an acclimation box for one rather than releasing both into the system at the same time)
•Humuhumunukunukuapua’a or Blue Throat Pair (I’d go for the BT pair just from personal preference)
• Majestic Angel OR Blue Face Angel (Emperors get BIG, we don’t realise how big they get in this hobby, but some of the ones I’ve seen at wholesalers have been at that 16-18 inch length, whilst the biggest Blue Face ive seen has been 12-14 inches and the biggest Majestic was closer to 8-10 inches)
• Genicanthus pair (for me this would be a pair of Watanabeis or maybe Caudovittatus if you can find them)
• Flag Fin Angel (to add a bit more of the yellow into the tank as Yellow Tangs aren’t appealing to me personally)
• Magnificent Fox Face (this is personal preference assuming you have an option on which adult Fox)
• Maroon Clowns
• Mexican Rainbow Wrasse (these guys are smaller Thalassoma species, and I find they are more placid than the larger Lunares and Sunsets but still hold their own without causing major problems with other wrasses)
• Coris pictoides (I find so many people own the more common Coris species, but this is a personal favourite of mine with its sleek appearance of black on yellow, plus whilst it stays smaller, much like the Mexican Rainbow it will hold its own)

I can’t help much on the eel side of it @littlefoxx may be more help than me.

#reefsquad any of you got anything to add or maybe change?#reefsquad

Is that to imply that the Achilles is less aggressive compared to the clown and sohal? Heard mixed reviews on them, but I’ve seen a clown and sohal both about 7” in a tank smaller than this. Not saying I condone it at all, nor do I know how long they were together, but they were in what looked like a 4’ 90g, with several other mixed tangs including a gold rim, and various reef fish, and they were active and swimming together with no torn fins or wounds at all. Wasn’t a bare stock tank like a quarantine either, had some rocks and coral. Considering what I’ve heard/read about them, it was super trippy seeing them side by side like that.

I do like the sailfin idea, it’s not a stretch to me to swap the gem for a sailfin, my hearts’ on the top 3. The blue hippo was because he filled a slightly different body shape and thought he might not upset the main acanthurus trio as much. I really like the shape of those 3.

The main thinking for the clown trigger was to match up aggression levels as best I can. He looks pretty wicked too.

I thought puffers were more interested in flowy fins, that’s one of the main reasons I struck the dwarf or vol lionfish I wanted. Every pic I’ve seen of an emperor shows relatively compact looking fins, but the only puffer I have currently is small so maybe larger puffers are more nippy?

Either one it is then for the tominis. Both are certified killers and can’t go into any other tank I have, they’re too aggressive. Thought maybe with 7’ of tank to swim in and a squad of mean tankmates between them they might be distracted enough to stick to their sides, but who knows.

 

[JumboShrimp]

Lunare Wrasses are super-cool! But I would resist trying a Clown Tang (unless you are talking about the lagoon show tank at WWC.)

 

[i cant think]

Is that to imply that the Achilles is less aggressive compared to the clown and sohal? Heard mixed reviews on them, but I’ve seen a clown and sohal both about 7” in a tank smaller than this. Not saying I condone it at all, nor do I know how long they were together, but they were in what looked like a 4’ 90g, with several other mixed tangs including a gold rim, and various reef fish, and they were active and swimming together with no torn fins or wounds at all. Wasn’t a bare stock tank like a quarantine either, had some rocks and coral. Considering what I’ve heard/read about them, it was super trippy seeing them side by side like that.

I do like the sailfin idea, it’s not a stretch to me to swap the gem for a sailfin, my hearts’ on the top 3. The blue hippo was because he filled a slightly different body shape and thought he might not upset the main acanthurus trio as much. I really like the shape of those 3.

The main thinking for the clown trigger was to match up aggression levels as best I can. He looks pretty wicked too.

I thought puffers were more interested in flowy fins, that’s one of the main reasons I struck the dwarf or vol lionfish I wanted. Every pic I’ve seen of an emperor shows relatively compact looking fins, but the only puffer I have currently is small so maybe larger puffers are more nippy?

Either one it is then for the tominis. Both are certified killers and can’t go into any other tank I have, they’re too aggressive. Thought maybe with 7’ of tank to swim in and a squad of mean tankmates between them they might be distracted enough to stick to their sides, but who knows.

So, starting with the Achilles, Clown and Sohal. I may know which tank you’re referring to if it has been seen on Instagram or another social media. If it is, then I’ve noticed that system seems to swap tangs quite regularly - likely due to either getting too big or too aggressive. I’ve had a 4 inch Sohal in one coral tray and a 5 inch Clown in another (both coral trays were 8 foot by 3 foot in floorspace) and these two tangs albeit they were separated, showed a similar temperament of nasty. The Sohal was slightly more placid, likely due to its smaller size. However, every time I’ve had an Achilles - I’ve cared for around 6 now, all different sizes from small 2 inch babies to decent size 6-7 inch adults, all in different sized tanks (from 2 foot cubes to the 8 foot coral trays). None of them were as aggressive as the Sohal/Clown were. They weren’t placid, unlike the other two Acanthurus I mentioned (OS and Vampire), but weren’t anywhere to the level of aggression that the Sohal has been - even our large Regal has been more aggressive than some of those Achilles were.

If you like the more oval body of the Blue Hippo, definitely look at the Orange Shoulder Tangs or the Naso species. Namely Naso elegans or Naso lituratus. These guys are gentle giants, they don’t cause issues with aggression but they also won’t tolerate aggression towards themselves and will become more defensive. I’ve also had Naso species occasionally go in the middle bickering which was occurring between other fish.

I get the thinking behind the idea of a Clown Trigger, however like said above, these are just outright nasty, even becoming more aggressive than Sohals and Clown Tangs. But due to the horror story said above, I won’t dwell much on this as you have read what these can do.

Puffers are more interested in flowy fins, however when angels get big they can gain streamers on them, especially the Emperor and Queen angels - the Queens get some stunning streamers as they age, the Emperor does get a streamer and albeit it’s much more stout in comparison, can become interesting for a large puffer. I find Toby puffers (Canthigaster sp.) aren’t all that nippy, whilst the Arothron species definitely are - hence the slight difference that surprises you (it shocked me at first when I saw a Golden Puffer nipping a show size Queen’s already quite short streamers).

 

[littlefoxx]

Everyone on my list, save the murderous tominis, are in the ‘ones I really want’ list. That’s where the problem lies. The main reason I chose so many highly aggressive fish was with the theory that they would scrap in the beginning to establish hierarchy, then learn to coexist because they knew they couldn’t really pick on each other without major risk of getting hurt. High risk no doubt, but I figured it’d spread out the aggression. If it helps, I was planning to establish a sturdy, relatively peaceful, but still dominant fish before everyone else. He owns the tank, calls the shots, and ideally keeps the others in check as juveniles at least. Ideally, he has that size and home turf advantage that establishes control of the tank, without him feeling the need to beat up on the new baby fish. Everyone else would be added small.

That’s odd about the triggers, I’ve heard more to indicate that the humu was the more docile of the family. Clown I get, he was picked as an option for that aggression to be on par with the tangs and angels. Tried covering both bases.

Adding more aggression is going to have the opposite effect, its going to make everyone more aggressive with each other. Thats what happened in my tank, I had the same idea you did, they didnt learn to exist they just went after each other until one of them died then they moved on to the next. I removed all the aggressive ones out eventually. Just my two cents, even if it is a study it just wont end well

 

[Wandering Albatross]

So, starting with the Achilles, Clown and Sohal. I may know which tank you’re referring to if it has been seen on Instagram or another social media. If it is, then I’ve noticed that system seems to swap tangs quite regularly - likely due to either getting too big or too aggressive. I’ve had a 4 inch Sohal in one coral tray and a 5 inch Clown in another (both coral trays were 8 foot by 3 foot in floorspace) and these two tangs albeit they were separated, showed a similar temperament of nasty. The Sohal was slightly more placid, likely due to its smaller size. However, every time I’ve had an Achilles - I’ve cared for around 6 now, all different sizes from small 2 inch babies to decent size 6-7 inch adults, all in different sized tanks (from 2 foot cubes to the 8 foot coral trays). None of them were as aggressive as the Sohal/Clown were. They weren’t placid, unlike the other two Acanthurus I mentioned (OS and Vampire), but weren’t anywhere to the level of aggression that the Sohal has been - even our large Regal has been more aggressive than some of those Achilles were.

If you like the more oval body of the Blue Hippo, definitely look at the Orange Shoulder Tangs or the Naso species. Namely Naso elegans or Naso lituratus. These guys are gentle giants, they don’t cause issues with aggression but they also won’t tolerate aggression towards themselves and will become more defensive. I’ve also had Naso species occasionally go in the middle bickering which was occurring between other fish.

I get the thinking behind the idea of a Clown Trigger, however like said above, these are just outright nasty, even becoming more aggressive than Sohals and Clown Tangs. But due to the horror story said above, I won’t dwell much on this as you have read what these can do.

Puffers are more interested in flowy fins, however when angels get big they can gain streamers on them, especially the Emperor and Queen angels - the Queens get some stunning streamers as they age, the Emperor does get a streamer and albeit it’s much more stout in comparison, can become interesting for a large puffer. I find Toby puffers (Canthigaster sp.) aren’t all that nippy, whilst the Arothron species definitely are - hence the slight difference that surprises you (it shocked me at first when I saw a Golden Puffer nipping a show size Queen’s already quite short streamers).

So if in any circumstance they were added together, the Achilles would need to be bigger and/or more established then either clown or sohal? One upside, if one of the 3 turns out to be particularly placid, I do have a backup location for it, assuming I can get him out early.

I did consider using an established naso as the boss fish before adding everything else as babies, but given the size of some of these fish, all these plus a naso seems cramped. I did see a probably 10” naso in a coral tray at an lfs off island, he was super friendly and well fed. I probably could have put my hand in and pet him. Great personality no question. Read that basis get pretty big though so would he even fit without having to remove half my stock?

So humu and a blue throat pair should be okay in theory? Can I get a third more neutral trigger in there with them for 4 total triggers, 3 different types? Or would that be too much?

Would the clown trigger have any shot against the undulate, if added together to an unrelated new tank at the same size? Are they on par for aggression or do undulates still kill the cake?

Darn the dogface is so cute though. Would my blue spot Toby have a chance in here, at 4” she seems way to small to me. But she does have the puffer poison, would be about their size when added, and has a smart mouth on her. Pretty sure she’d still be too nippy to add a lionfish of any size back to the list.

Would a second moray type be too much, perhaps a jewel moray? Even a snowflake?

How many of the large wrasse listed could I swing? One, or a couple so long as they’re not related? I like me a good super male wrasse.

Would a butterfly of some kind be too timid against this lineup? Parrot I take it is still no, as is grouper. Scorpions are too easy a target, flounders probably would be too.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Adding more aggression is going to have the opposite effect, it’s going to make everyone more aggressive with each other. Thats what happened in my tank, I had the same idea you did, they didnt learn to exist they just went after each other until one of them died then they moved on to the next. I removed all the aggressive ones out eventually. Just my two cents, even if it is a study it just wont end well

It’s a fine line I think, cause if there’s only the one aggressive fish, depending on personality, he might just harass and kill any more passive fish. If everyone has spunk, they’ll be harder to pick on. But I can see how it increases the chances of fighting, as anyone could be set off. I can see dancing the edge of a knife here and a real case by case basis for success with any of these combinations.

 

[i cant think]

So if in any circumstance they were added together, the Achilles would need to be bigger and/or more established then either clown or sohal? One upside, if one of the 3 turns out to be particularly placid, I do have a backup location for it, assuming I can get him out early.

I did consider using an established naso as the boss fish before adding everything else as babies, but given the size of some of these fish, all these plus a naso seems cramped. I did see a probably 10” naso in a coral tray at an lfs off island, he was super friendly and well fed. I probably could have put my hand in and pet him. Great personality no question. Read that basis get pretty big though so would he even fit without having to remove half my stock?

So humu and a blue throat pair should be okay in theory? Can I get a third more neutral trigger in there with them for 4 total triggers, 3 different types? Or would that be too much?

Would the clown trigger have any shot against the undulate, if added together to an unrelated new tank at the same size? Are they on par for aggression or do undulates still kill the cake?

Darn the dogface is so cute though. Would my blue spot Toby have a chance in here, at 4” she seems way to small to me. But she does have the puffer poison, would be about their size when added, and has a smart mouth on her. Pretty sure she’d still be too nippy to add a lionfish of any size back to the list.

Would a second moray type be too much, perhaps a jewel moray? Even a snowflake?

How many of the large wrasse listed could I swing? One, or a couple so long as they’re not related? I like me a good super male wrasse.

Would a butterfly of some kind be too timid against this lineup? Parrot I take it is still no, as is grouper. Scorpions are too easy a target, flounders probably would be too.

I would flat out remove the idea of the Clown or Sohal. This is mainly because, whilst as juveniles these may be placid or not as aggressive as you’d expect, as they grow they will wipe out other tangs just to get to the top of the hierarchy. When it comes to it, if your heart is set on an Achilles, it’s not worth risking the loss of an already fairly sensitive species just to have that “cichlid mentality” of the more aggressive you add, the more it cancels out. I truly believe you either have a Sohal or Clown Tang and no other tangs or the other tangs and don’t risk either of these two. Tangs aren’t particularly placid, they just don’t all have the same kill all behaviour (which I do find Clown Tangs and Sohals have).

IMHO, the Naso would work, but you would need to rethink the Triggers - only going with the pair of Blue Throats, these can get fairly big (at least body shape wise rather than length wise) but don’t have the same active swimming behaviour as a much larger Humu Humu or Clown Trigger. This would also only work if you remove the ideas of the Clown Tang and Sohal.

A Humu can be good - but like Littlefox has said, these get a kill all behaviour. So it’s likely this wouldn’t work with the more placid Blue Throats and you’d have to again, pick one or the other and not all. The Clown Trigger, I think I’ve gone on and on about their nasty behaviour as has Littlefoxx and the others in this thread - the reality is, if you’re still considering it, there’s not much we can say to prevent you from wanting to have it. As for going against an undulate, I personally don’t work with these triggers together nor at a larger size as I find them not to be worth the hassle they bring.

A Canthigaster could have a shot at being in this tank, again assuming you remove the thought of a Clown or Sohal Tang as well as the Humu Trigger, Undulatus and Clown Trigger in this tank. Just because they have that Tetrodotoxin doesn’t mean they won’t get attacked by the large and aggressive triggers.

I can’t really help massively with the eel question so I’ll leave that to someone with better expertise in that field.

The wrasse question would require another list of the new fish stock you want after getting all our advice - I’m slightly lost with if we’ve narrowed down or ended up growing the list in all honesty.

A butterfly or banner is likely to be too placid for this stock - again, I won’t be able to say for sure yes or no until I see a more refined stock list.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

I would flat out remove the idea of the Clown or Sohal. This is mainly because, whilst as juveniles these may be placid or not as aggressive as you’d expect, as they grow they will wipe out other tangs just to get to the top of the hierarchy. When it comes to it, if your heart is set on an Achilles, it’s not worth risking the loss of an already fairly sensitive species just to have that “cichlid mentality” of the more aggressive you add, the more it cancels out. I truly believe you either have a Sohal or Clown Tang and no other tangs or the other tangs and don’t risk either of these two. Tangs aren’t particularly placid, they just don’t all have the same kill all behaviour (which I do find Clown Tangs and Sohals have).

IMHO, the Naso would work, but you would need to rethink the Triggers - only going with the pair of Blue Throats, these can get fairly big (at least body shape wise rather than length wise) but don’t have the same active swimming behaviour as a much larger Humu Humu or Clown Trigger. This would also only work if you remove the ideas of the Clown Tang and Sohal.

A Humu can be good - but like Littlefox has said, these get a kill all behaviour. So it’s likely this wouldn’t work with the more placid Blue Throats and you’d have to again, pick one or the other and not all. The Clown Trigger, I think I’ve gone on and on about their nasty behaviour as has Littlefoxx and the others in this thread - the reality is, if you’re still considering it, there’s not much we can say to prevent you from wanting to have it. As for going against an undulate, I personally don’t work with these triggers together nor at a larger size as I find them not to be worth the hassle they bring.

A Canthigaster could have a shot at being in this tank, again assuming you remove the thought of a Clown or Sohal Tang as well as the Humu Trigger, Undulatus and Clown Trigger in this tank. Just because they have that Tetrodotoxin doesn’t mean they won’t get attacked by the large and aggressive triggers.

I can’t really help massively with the eel question so I’ll leave that to someone with better expertise in that field.

The wrasse question would require another list of the new fish stock you want after getting all our advice - I’m slightly lost with if we’ve narrowed down or ended up growing the list in all honesty.

A butterfly or banner is likely to be too placid for this stock - again, I won’t be able to say for sure yes or no until I see a more refined stock list.

So Achilles, sohal, or clown, but not all 3, and safety says Achilles. That does reduce aggression potential, but it means there’s no way to have either of those remaining tangs any time soon. The Achilles I’d almost risk in my reef community if it was a longer tank, but the others are too big and aggressive for anything else I have. I can do a decent sized species tank for the right trigger, but with the way tangs move, I can’t justify it. Nor can I risk it with smaller fish, given the way my barely 5” tominis went nuts on totally unrelated species. No similar size or color, just crazy. I would only be willing to risk the clown or sohal with other large fish and/or sturdy aggressive fish that’ll hold their own. So this is my only chance to house them, at least for the foreseeable future, which sucks.

I was thinking clown trigger with the undulate in his new digs, not in this 240 with everyone else. Purely because I’m not sure who else would stand the slightest chance against him, if he outdoes clown tangs for aggression.

So what if I did:

• Naso
• Achilles
• Sailfin
• Blue hippo and/or another less aggressive tang and/or 1 of the tominis
• Blue throat pair
• second less aggressive trigger (pink tail maybe?)
• Emperor and/or regal angel and/or alternate angel/s
• Zebra eels x2
• Snowflake eel/s
• Maroon clown pair, maybe with carpet nem
• Would still like the dogface puffer or my blue spot if she’ll be a good fit, but not if it’ll cost me having angels
• Lunare wrasse
• Red Coris or sunset wrasse
• Rainbow or Christmas wrasse
• Newtons wrasse
• Maybe a sweetlips, fusilier, or another boisterous sturdy fish
• Not opposed to smaller-medium dither fish at the end, only if they’ll survive aggression/predation of the primary stock, they can’t cost me any of the big fish alone

 

[BryanM]

I can't really add to this convo as I've essentially decided NOT to have any sort of predator tank... I would not be able to stomach the losses.

Good luck, I think you're getting some very solid advice.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

I can't really add to this convo as I've essentially decided NOT to have any sort of predator tank... I would not be able to stomach the losses.

Good luck, I think you're getting some very solid advice.

In theory a true ‘predator’ tank doesn’t necessarily have to be aggressive, does it? An angler species-only tank is technically a predator tank. But I totally get what you mean.

 

[BryanM]

In theory a true ‘predator’ tank doesn’t necessarily have to be aggressive, does it? An angler species-only tank is technically a predator tank. But I totally get what you mean.

Fair. I should choose my words more carefully sometimes. Just a puffer solo is also still a predator tank.

Definitely I am focused more on Fish on Fish crimes... Especially when most of our fish aren't exactly cheap

 

[i cant think]

So Achilles, sohal, or clown, but not all 3, and safety says Achilles. That does reduce aggression potential, but it means there’s no way to have either of those remaining tangs any time soon. The Achilles I’d almost risk in my reef community if it was a longer tank, but the others are too big and aggressive for anything else I have. I can do a decent sized species tank for the right trigger, but with the way tangs move, I can’t justify it. Nor can I risk it with smaller fish, given the way my barely 5” tominis went nuts on totally unrelated species. No similar size or color, just crazy. I would only be willing to risk the clown or sohal with other large fish and/or sturdy aggressive fish that’ll hold their own. So this is my only chance to house them, at least for the foreseeable future, which sucks.

I was thinking clown trigger with the undulate in his new digs, not in this 240 with everyone else. Purely because I’m not sure who else would stand the slightest chance against him, if he outdoes clown tangs for aggression.

So what if I did:

• Naso
• Achilles
• Sailfin
• Blue hippo and/or another less aggressive tang and/or 1 of the tominis
• Blue throat pair
• second less aggressive trigger (pink tail maybe?)
• Emperor and/or regal angel and/or alternate angel/s
• Zebra eels x2
• Snowflake eel/s
• Maroon clown pair, maybe with carpet nem
• Would still like the dogface puffer or my blue spot if she’ll be a good fit, but not if it’ll cost me having angels
• Lunare wrasse
• Red Coris or sunset wrasse
• Rainbow or Christmas wrasse
• Newtons wrasse
• Maybe a sweetlips, fusilier, or another boisterous sturdy fish
• Not opposed to smaller-medium dither fish at the end, only if they’ll survive aggression/predation of the primary stock, they can’t cost me any of the big fish alone

So, undulate with a clown in the separate rank may work - Assuming the clown is either a similar size or smaller than the undulate, I’d suspect it may work. You may want to look into what other people have had with Undulatus though just to be a bit more certain if it’d work.

That stock plan is definitely more likely to survive better than the original would have! The Tangs would all work, again just through personal preference I’d drop the Hippo and go for a Tomini instead just for the different body shape but also it would be a smaller tang overall so won’t be an issue for the other high activity fish and risking becoming cramped.

The Triggers should mix well - Littlefoxx may be a better help with this though, especially for more placid triggers that may get along with the Blue Throat pair.

Angels look good to me! For me personally I’d go for the Regal just due to that yellow colouration. But also look into the Apolemichthys species, the Flag Fin is a personal favourite of mine as photos just never do them justice.

The Blue Spot Puffer would work a lot better and won’t be as big of an issue with nipping against the angels and other species. Plus, with fewer large truly aggressive fish, she would stand a better chance of survival in the tank.

The Wrasses look fairly good to me @Slocke any thoughts on the mix which I may be missing?

And finally, the other sturdy large fish, why not go for the Foxface? Or possibly leave this empty if something else comes up that you think may work!

As for the smaller medium sized fillers, maybe look into some of the larger anthias? These always add some nice colour - I personally love the Square Spots. They hold their own under aggression and add a stunning orange-yellow as females which then is contrasted nicely with the males getting their bright pink and purple colouring!

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Fair. I should choose my words more carefully sometimes. Just a puffer solo is also still a predator tank.

Definitely I am focused more on Fish on Fish crimes... Especially when most of our fish aren't exactly cheap

It’s a very risky move no doubt, to even get a fish as costly as an Achilles, with the fragility of it disease-wise, then have anything else that could hurt it. But as much of a holy grail as the Achilles is to me, I still can’t justify the tank size needed to keep an adult 100% solo.

 

[i cant think]

It’s a very risky move no doubt, to even get a fish as costly as an Achilles, with the fragility of it disease-wise, then have anything else that could hurt it. But as much of a holy grail as the Achilles is to me, I still can’t justify the tank size needed to keep an adult 100% solo.

I’ve found get the Achilles the right diet and man they become bulletproof, minimal stress factors and suddenly it goes from sleepless nights to relaxed mornings enjoying seeing a show piece cruising along the tank!

 

[Wandering Albatross]

So, undulate with a clown in the separate rank may work - Assuming the clown is either a similar size or smaller than the undulate, I’d suspect it may work. You may want to look into what other people have had with Undulatus though just to be a bit more certain if it’d work.

That stock plan is definitely more likely to survive better than the original would have! The Tangs would all work, again just through personal preference I’d drop the Hippo and go for a Tomini instead just for the different body shape but also it would be a smaller tang overall so won’t be an issue for the other high activity fish and risking becoming cramped.

The Triggers should mix well - Littlefoxx may be a better help with this though, especially for more placid triggers that may get along with the Blue Throat pair.

Angels look good to me! For me personally I’d go for the Regal just due to that yellow colouration. But also look into the Apolemichthys species, the Flag Fin is a personal favourite of mine as photos just never do them justice.

The Blue Spot Puffer would work a lot better and won’t be as big of an issue with nipping against the angels and other species. Plus, with fewer large truly aggressive fish, she would stand a better chance of survival in the tank.

The Wrasses look fairly good to me @Slocke any thoughts on the mix which I may be missing?

And finally, the other sturdy large fish, why not go for the Foxface? Or possibly leave this empty if something else comes up that you think may work!

As for the smaller medium sized fillers, maybe look into some of the larger anthias? These always add some nice colour - I personally love the Square Spots. They hold their own under aggression and add a stunning orange-yellow as females which then is contrasted nicely with the males getting their bright pink and purple colouring!

The undulate is about 4” now, was thinking if trying the clown it’d be in the 1.5-2.5” range, unless they’d be safer at the same size. As an alternative for him I may reconsider the Humu, as I pegged those as more placid for a trigger, but I’m now hearing otherwise. That would be easier to source. I’ve considered clown tang, clown trigger, humu trigger, maroon clown pair pre-established in his new tank before him, or a sizable group of cromis or damsels, as they are slightly less of a financial loss. His tank will be enrichment centered as well, to hopefully keep him engaged and not plotting.

Honestly if I had a decent pace to send them the tominis would be gone, it’s the fish I regret the most. They don’t do much for me shape, color, or personality wise, but I do feel bad they can’t go with anyone I have, with the exception for some reason being a green mandarin. They’d kill pretty much anything else that swims, but for whatever reason left the one green mandarin male alone.

Along with 1 or 2 large angels, think I could use some of my dither-fish space for a dwarf angel or 2? Coral beauty or flame, I’d have to look into the others more.

If the Toby puffer is less nippy by comparison, would a lion of any type be possible? Or would even the ‘peaceful’ triggers be too much? A dwarf with more compact fins perhaps to preserve some safety net for any medium dither fish, and slightly lessen the urge to nip?

I wish the parrotfish had better success stories, I’d love to try one of those. The main point of the fox face in my mind was to be the big mostly peaceful guy, which at this point would probably be better filled by a large naso. A grouper would be cool too, hear they have good personalities, but I imagine coming home to a tail sticking out of his mouth. If none of those, something weird like a flounder or sea goblin. If a butterfly would fit, a moorish idol or latticed. I also have a source for strong actively eating CBBs. Or even a fourth placid trigger type.

I’ll look into various anthias, but my luck on them has been mixed thus far, save for the purple queens. Plain old blue/green cromis are politely scrappy and thriving however.