• For a Limited Time the R2R Partner Membership is NOW OPEN! Get some cool swag and chances to win part of over $20,000 in prizes! Click here for more details

The construction of the optimal nitrification filter

Miller535

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 11, 2019
Messages
1,979
Reaction score
1,630
Location
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
I personally would not worry about detritus at all. As if I chose to use this method, I would be pumping water out of my sump, post filter sock. I would be interested to see the affect this filter would have on ph. I would imagine it having a positive affect. As it would definitely allow a lot of gas exchange as well as introduce more oxygen. I wonder what size it would have to be to be effective. As with any filtration contact time matters a lot. Idk. Just thinking out loud I guess.
 
Best reef aquarium LED lighting
OP
Lasse

Lasse

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 20, 2016
Messages
6,911
Reaction score
20,897
Location
Källarliden 14 D Bohus, Sweden
Because it is a closed system - actual contact time (the time it takes for one molecule to pas the media is not of any concern) Total contact time during a 24 hours period is the same - total Independent of flow rate.

The effect on pH is dualistic - total depended of CO2 level in the air - for the moment is the concentration of outside air in pristine areas around 400 - 415 ppm CO2. Total aeration with that air will result in a pH around 8.15 - 8.20. Higher in the air - lower equilibrium point -> lower in the air - higher pH

Sincerely Lasse
 

Miller535

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 11, 2019
Messages
1,979
Reaction score
1,630
Location
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Because it is a closed system - actual contact time (the time it takes for one molecule to pas the media is not of any concern) Total contact time during a 24 hours period is the same - total Independent of flow rate.

The effect on pH is dualistic - total depended of CO2 level in the air - for the moment is the concentration of outside air in pristine areas around 400 - 415 ppm CO2. Total aeration with that air will result in a pH around 8.15 - 8.20. Higher in the air - lower equilibrium point -> lower in the air - higher pH

Sincerely Lasse
Even if contact time doesn't matter (I still think it would matter some if it was too fast), size of the filter in relation to size of tank and bioload seems like it would matter. I couldn't make a 2" wide 5" long tube and expect it to have much affect. Would have to be large enough. Right?
 
OP
Lasse

Lasse

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 20, 2016
Messages
6,911
Reaction score
20,897
Location
Källarliden 14 D Bohus, Sweden
I couldn't make a 2" wide 5" long tube and expect it to have much affect. Would have to be large enough. Right?
Probably it should have better nitrification rate than 30 Kg of stones if it was filled with right media..

Sincerely Lasse
 
Lazys Coral House

jnvd3b

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
61
Reaction score
57
Nice write up.
@Lasse since this can be ‘off’ at times would it work well in conjunction with a batch denitrator?

Turns on 3-4 times a day (preferably around feedings) and converts the ammonia/nitrite to nitrate. Once the pump is off the water all drains directly into a batch denitrator where methanol or another carbon source is then dosed and allowed to reduce the nitrates before the next ‘cycle’

thoughts?
 
OP
Lasse

Lasse

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 20, 2016
Messages
6,911
Reaction score
20,897
Location
Källarliden 14 D Bohus, Sweden
It could but the denitrator need to be rather large IMO, but batch systems are probably the same as to use a battleship gun in order to kill a fly :D In a ref tank. It is true that the top production of NH3/NH4 has a span from feeding to around 2-3 hours after. But with time - the microbial NH3/NH4 production will be more and more important and it goes on 7/24 and a continuous function may be important.

However in system with high loads in small volumes as fish farms - a batch system would have its benefits. However in that case I would use a K1 or K5 based MBBR (Mixed Bed Bio Reactor) run as a MBR (Mixed Batch Reactor). In that case you would be able to handle the BOD (Biological Oxygen Demand) too - that means fast mineralization of organic matter - fish poop in this case.

Sincerely Lasse
 

jnvd3b

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
61
Reaction score
57
It could but the denitrator need to be rather large IMO, but batch systems are probably the same as to use a battleship gun in order to kill a fly :D In a ref tank. It is true that the top production of NH3/NH4 has a span from feeding to around 2-3 hours after. But with time - the microbial NH3/NH4 production will be more and more important and it goes on 7/24 and a continuous function may be important.

However in system with high loads in small volumes as fish farms - a batch system would have its benefits. However in that case I would use a K1 or K5 based MBBR (Mixed Bed Bio Reactor) run as a MBR (Mixed Batch Reactor). In that case you would be able to handle the BOD (Biological Oxygen Demand) too - that means fast mineralization of organic matter - fish poop in this case.

Sincerely Lasse
I have not heard of a mixed batch reactor but I assume it is kaldnes media and you turn the air pump off for periods to let the media go anaerobic?

The denitrifier I was talking about is not discussed much on R2R but from what I have read only requires a tank of roughly 5% of display volume. Basically just a way of sequestering the carbon one would already dose. They typically use eggcrate on the outer walls of a small batch tank and a small pump for some circulation (but trying to keep it anaerobic still) and let a thick bacteria population form. Then a pump moves water into the batch tank to be processed 3-4x a day.
I would agree it is likely overkill for a 10-30 gallon tank but for larger displays seems like a reasonable option for keeping the nitrates at bay.

Sorry for hijacking the thread.
 
OP
Lasse

Lasse

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 20, 2016
Messages
6,911
Reaction score
20,897
Location
Källarliden 14 D Bohus, Sweden
I have not heard of a mixed batch reactor but I assume it is kaldnes media and you turn the air pump off for periods to let the media go anaerobic?
Principally - yes but you can run it in sequences also and have an aeration process after the anaerobic before empty the reactor, hence taking care of the BOD produced during the anaerobic process too.

You are not hijacking - it is good to get other angles too.

I have not heard about that small batch reactor you speak of. But my reversed remote deep sand bed (around 5 % of my water volume) is run in a similar way. But the batches is not managed by time - they are managed by my redox probe. If redox >0 -> DOC ii injected. If redox >60 - pump is stopped. Redox below 60 - pump start again.

Maybe it can work with that size of reactor

Sincerely Lasse
 
Corals.com

jnvd3b

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
61
Reaction score
57
Principally - yes but you can run it in sequences also and have an aeration process after the anaerobic before empty the reactor, hence taking care of the BOD produced during the anaerobic process too.

You are not hijacking - it is good to get other angles too.

I have not heard about that small batch reactor you speak of. But my reversed remote deep sand bed (around 5 % of my water volume) is run in a similar way. But the batches is not managed by time - they are managed by my redox probe. If redox >0 -> DOC ii injected. If redox >60 - pump is stopped. Redox below 60 - pump start again.

Maybe it can work with that size of reactor

Sincerely Lasse
Interesting. What is a ‘reverse’ remote DSB?
I first learned about the methanol denitrifiers via youtube- But upon further research any carbon source seems like it would work. The batch process is what makes it unique as compared to other methods.

Seems to have fallen out of favor other than a niche group of reefers in Florida.
 
OP
Lasse

Lasse

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 20, 2016
Messages
6,911
Reaction score
20,897
Location
Källarliden 14 D Bohus, Sweden
What is a ‘reverse’ remote DSB?
Its my own name :p:p

This is my first outline

1601246520937.png

This is the result

1601246586411.png

Easiest to understand see from this post and three pages ahead. This post show a part too. Hear I establish the fuge over the DSB. Reversed - because there is a flow from the bottom and up in the Sandbed. Remote because it is not in the DT and DSB because it is a Deep Sand Bed

Three years ago I removed the siporax and today it is only coral gravel in the bed. Beside the water inlet - I have also an inlet for DOC.

Sincerely Lasse
 
OP
Lasse

Lasse

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 20, 2016
Messages
6,911
Reaction score
20,897
Location
Källarliden 14 D Bohus, Sweden
Interesting. What is a ‘reverse’ remote DSB?
I first learned about the methanol denitrifiers via youtube- But upon further research any carbon source seems like it would work.
Thank you for the link. What surprised me was that they only use three egg craters as media (and the walls. Probably it will also be some particles that works as media. After seeing the video - yes it could work very well and as a side effect - you will get bacteria as feed for your corals.

Sincerely Lasse
 

jnvd3b

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
61
Reaction score
57
Thank you for the link. What surprised me was that they only use three egg craters as media (and the walls. Probably it will also be some particles that works as media. After seeing the video - yes it could work very well and as a side effect - you will get bacteria as feed for your corals.

Sincerely Lasse
yes there is a much more informative thread on the matter (on RC) with details (how to size, dose, test, etc) and they actually ended up removing all eggcrate but the walls because the partitions in the middle were inhibiting flow too much due to how think the bacteria grows. It seems in this method media surface area is not super key as the bacteria is using it just to basically hold on and grow a very thick almost mucous.
 

Would you be shocked by today's reefing hobby if you had just returned after a long period of time?

  • Yes (tell us why in the thread)

    Votes: 155 52.5%
  • No

    Votes: 53 18.0%
  • Somewhat

    Votes: 83 28.1%
  • Other

    Votes: 4 1.4%

Online statistics

Members online
2,216
Guests online
5,102
Total visitors
7,318
Build Your Dream Aquarium Automation System!
Top