The fate of my tank…ich after fallow & QT.

[Elliott ll]

Live clams from the grocery store and nori were all mine would eat at first. It gave him time to pick at them on his time.

I have nori both on a clip and tied to a rock. I will grab some live clams today. Feed on the half shell?

 

[Lionfish hunter]

lionfish i think what people are trying to convey is the theory that fish do better in older tanks than new ones...and no one really has a definative explanation as to why...and there's a good chance that the answer is bacteria...and not just the bacteria responsible for the nitrogen cycle itself but countless others that process things we dont understand and cant test for or dose...and maybe they only show up in sufficient numbers after a long time and/or after introduction of rock that actually came out of the ocean...and when they do, the fish are healthier and able to fight off disease...if this hobby was easy everyone would have instant success and obviously not everybody does....at this point the OP's tank has devolved into the way we kept fish 40 years ago...fish only, dosing meds....its like a setup from the show "Tanked"...can you keep fish alive this way? of course you can...but its no longer a reef tank

I have instant success with fish when I start up new tanks from scratch. Literally after 2 days because of fritz turbo start bacteria. Fish do not benefit from additional bacteria assuming the tank is properly cycled. There is no secret bacteria that does something magical we don’t know about. If you want to keep fish, inverts, and corals that eat copepods and bacteria. Then they need a older tank so their food is in sufficient number. Like sand sifting stars, mandarins, and those blue linchia starfish. But this in not what the OP has. Give fish clean parasite free water with space and proper food. That is what they need. 99% of people do not give their fish this. The OP has a 250 gallon tank, he is giving more space that almost everybody, this is the real key for fish. New tanks are often set up by people who dont know what they are doing and are 100 times more likely to get ich because everything is new and almost all new fish these days have ich hidden. New or old tank, you do not want to practice ich management with tangs and sensitive fish. There are parasite experts on here and almost all if not all of them agree with that.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

I have nori both on a clip and tied to a rock. I will grab some live clams today. Feed on the half shell?

Yes. Watch the ammonia. I also found that having another fish was a key to getting him to eat other foods. I put a new sailfin tang in with him. Not sure if it is the feeding response for competition or just showing him what to eat. And be carefull with ich and velvet. I am on my second moorish idol because 7 days in he went from being fine to totally covered in parasites and dead in 12 hours. My new one is on his last day of copper with his sailfin tang buddy and eat hundreds of pellets a day.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

Maybe my Hannah test kit is faulty? I really really don’t understand how these critters are alive with copper…

I don’t think my test kit is faulty. I’ve made copper standards and it tested them fine. Maybe inverts are hardier than we thought?

The copper killed all my aiptasia! It’s an excellent eradication technique for a FOWLR.

Edit: maybe copper works best for smaller, simpler organisms. I think all my copepods and amohipods are dead? Let me check because I know a spot where there are TONS of them.

It does not always kill them instantly if my hermit crab in cupramine is like the rest of the inverts out there, but they won’t last longterm. Get them out when you see a chance to, they may or may not make it if you get them out in a reasonable amount of time.

 

[Miami Reef]

Evening update. Copper at 2.53ppm. I definitely see more absorption during night time when tank lights are off. Photoperiod does not have much (if at all) decrease in copper.

 

[Miami Reef]

edit

 

[Paul B]

Paul never kept a group of tangs in his tank.

Never is a strong word. Tangs used to be the most common fish in the hobby and I always had them in my tank. I have a Hippo now and my last Hippo lived about 10 years.

. He advocates for good food, OLD aged tank/rock, TONS of rock...

Good food meaning food with "living" bacteria in it. That is the key. Most food is good and will have the nutrients for a fish to live, but only living bacteria will keep a fishes immunity. Living bacteria and parasites if you want your fish to be immune to them. That is why quarantined or medicated tanks have so many disease problems. They are not immune.

If you only feed LFS bought food, you may have a problem.

And ich management with tangs and a especially a moorish idol is a horrible idea. Also not what he is doing, so...

Tangs have no problems in my tank and I was one of the first people to keep a moorish Idol for 5 years. 5 years with almost any fish is a failure, but for a moorish Idol in a home tank, that is almost a record and was a record in the years I kept them.

I just find them the most boring and common fish except for Hippo's.

If you SCUBA dive you will see more tangs than anything.

 

[Paul B]

All the bacteria in the world could not solve this parasite problem. Why are we talking about bacteria! Somebody please tell me 1 specific scenario were bacteria changes anything in his tank. The only problem is parasites, bacteria does absolutely nothing for parasites, please try and be helpful.

LOL. You are correct, all the bacteria in the world would not kill ich. But it will keep the fish immune from most diseases as bacteria control 50% of a fishes immunity. The other 50% is from parasites because you need living parasites to have an immunity from them

Give fish clean parasite free water with space and proper food.

Can you name "one " old, "healthy" parasite free tank? Old is not 5 or 10 years as that is not even the life span of a hermit crab.

Healthy tanks are where fish only die of old age. For most fish that is about 12 years or more and any fish that can spawn in a tank are spawning or filling with eggs.

If there are no parasites, the fish have no immunity to them and a fish with no immunity is not a healthy fish just as a Human with no immunity is not healthy. We find them in cancer hospitals all over the place. They are living, but not healthy at all.

 

[Miami Reef]

If there are no parasites, the fish have no immunity to them and a fish with no immunity is not a healthy fish just as a Human with no immunity is not healthy. We find them in cancer hospitals all over the place. They are living, but not healthy at all.

I don’t understand how blood sucking parasites can make a fish healthier? I don’t see why a person can’t combine good nutrition with prophylactic treatment?

You are correct, cancer patients are not considered healthy, but with most things in medicine, it’s usually choosing between the better of the 2 evils. Chemotherapy is toxic, but dying of cancer is more likely to happen sooner.

Same as with parasites: In my personal experience, non quarantined fish died much sooner than those that were quarantined.

You keep saying how a tank cannot survive long when you quarantine fish, but you also say new tanks cannot handle the immunity protocol. I quarantine because in a closed system parasites will outnumber the fish and even the strongest fish will become overpowered.

 

[Miami Reef]

We treat humans with antibiotics all the time. I don’t understand the claim that medicine will kill fish faster. Medicine actually increased the human lifespan.

At the end, I believe there is more than one way to become successful in this hobby. There are also different definitions of success, so that in itself is a loaded term.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

LOL. You are correct, all the bacteria in the world would not kill ich. But it will keep the fish immune from most diseases as bacteria control 50% of a fishes immunity. The other 50% is from parasites because you need living parasites to have an immunity from them

Can you name "one " old, "healthy" parasite free tank? Old is not 5 or 10 years as that is not even the life span of a hermit crab.

Healthy tanks are where fish only die of old age. For most fish that is about 12 years or more and any fish that can spawn in a tank are spawning or filling with eggs.

If there are no parasites, the fish have no immunity to them and a fish with no immunity is not a healthy fish just as a Human with no immunity is not healthy. We find them in cancer hospitals all over the place. They are living, but not healthy at all.

Properly Quarantine everything that goes in to your tank, and there will be no parasites. It is that simple. Have moorish idols and tangs with ich living in the same tiny little environment is the absolute dumbest thing I can image.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

I don’t understand how blood sucking parasites can make a fish healthier? I don’t see why a person can’t combine good nutrition with prophylactic treatment?

You are correct, cancer patients are not considered healthy, but with most things in medicine, it’s usually choosing between the better of the 2 evils. Chemotherapy is toxic, but dying of cancer is more likely to happen sooner.

Same as with parasites: In my personal experience, non quarantined fish died much sooner than those that were quarantined.

You keep saying how a tank cannot survive long when you quarantine fish, but you also say new tanks cannot handle the immunity protocol. I quarantine because in a closed system parasites will outnumber the fish and even the strongest fish

I have a moorish idol and 5 tangs. There is no ich or velvet, and it is going to stay that way. Period.

 

[Miami Reef]

I have a moorish idol and 5 tangs. There is no ich or velvet, and it is going to stay that way. Period.

I definitely need a FTS asap!

 

[Tamberav]

Even a tank without parasites it’s not a sterile environment. Lots of bacteria. A person doesn’t need pin worms to fight off the flu and such.

Live foods and foods that mimic a natural diet is a great choice though. I go so far as to feed my cats raw food based on a whole prey diet. It even took care of some health issues they had.

 

[Miami Reef]

Even a tank without parasites it’s not a sterile environment. Lots of bacteria. A person doesn’t need pin worms to fight off the flu and such.

Live foods and foods that mimic a natural diet is a great choice though. I go so far as to feed my cats raw food based on a whole prey diet. It even took care of some health issues they had.

I used to feed my cats raw too! But I ended up going with wet canned because the process of thawing daily and meal prepping was not sustainable for me. But it’s great!

 

[Paul B]

At the end, I believe there is more than one way to become successful in this hobby. There are also different definitions of success, so that in itself is a loaded term.

To me the only successful tank is where the fish only die of old age, Jumping out or bullying. Also if the fish can spawn in a tank they are spawning as only healthy fish will spawn.

I don’t understand how blood sucking parasites can make a fish healthier? I don’t see why a person can’t combine good nutrition with prophylactic treatment?

Blood sucking parasites are needed to keep fish immune to blood sucking parasites. All fish in the sea harbor blood sucking parasites and all fish in the sea are healthier than they are in a tank.

Some of my fish are over 30 years old and spawn constantly. If you have a tank full of moorish Idols, tangs, mandarins and butterflies and they have lived in there for 5 years, that is not a success because all those fish live longer than that. If they live maybe 10- 15 years, that can be called a success if those fish didn't die of disease.

A 5 year old tang is like a teenage Human. Not very old.

Prophylactic treatment if it isn't done to long will probably not hurt fish to much. But keeping parasites out of a tank forever will.

That is also the reason there are no old quarantined, medicated healthy tanks.

 

[Tamberav]

I used to feed my cats raw too! But I ended up going with wet canned because the process of thawing daily and meal prepping was not sustainable for me. But it’s great!

Ya it is a bit of work.. although I save a ton of money on cat food. Chicken thighs are like $1 a lb on sale at Sam's club vs a 3oz can of high quality canned is like $2-$3. I don't thaw daily... keep some on the fridge and when it starts to get low. Put another portion in to thaw by the time that one is gone.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

To me the only successful tank is where the fish only die of old age, Jumping out or bullying. Also if the fish can spawn in a tank they are spawning as only healthy fish will spawn.


Blood sucking parasites are needed to keep fish immune to blood sucking parasites. All fish in the sea harbor blood sucking parasites and all fish in the sea are healthier than they are in a tank.

Some of my fish are over 30 years old and spawn constantly. If you have a tank full of moorish Idols, tangs, mandarins and butterflies and they have lived in there for 5 years, that is not a success because all those fish live longer than that. If they live maybe 10- 15 years, that can be called a success if those fish didn't die of disease.

A 5 year old tang is like a teenage Human. Not very old.

Prophylactic treatment if it isn't done to long will probably not hurt fish to much. But keeping parasites out of a tank forever will.

That is also the reason there are no old quarantined, medicated healthy tanks.

Let ich or velvet into a tiny environment like a fish tank where it's number can easily over take any fish with any amount of stress is a horrible idea and horrible advice. There are countless experts on disease on this forum, listen to them. Keep parasites out, it may not be convenient for you to do that, maybe that's why you're so dead set on telling people to let parasites into their tanks. You're wrong, your advice is terrible, and I bet it is because you're too lazy to quarantine every fish and piece of coral that enters your tank. Giving ich to tangs and moorish idols is horrible. This may be why you have not been able to keep moorish idols to age. If you are giving them ich, you have already lost.

 

[Miami Reef]

Ya it is a bit of work.. although I save a ton of money on cat food. Chicken thighs are like $1 a lb on sale at Sam's club vs a 3oz can of high quality canned is like $2-$3. I don't thaw daily... keep some on the fridge and when it starts to get low. Put another portion in to thaw by the time that one is gone.

Do you supplement with taurine? Do you ensure you have organs like chicken liver/heart in the mix? Cats are obligatory carnivores which means they only get essential nutrients (like taurine) from their food. Humans can produce it without eating meat.

The hardest part for me was sourcing the chicken liver/heart. I completely forgot about that issue until now. I know it’s possible to only use chicken breasts and load with supplements.

Ps: My knowledge on cat nutrition is very limited. I am not an authority on this subject.

 

[Tamberav]

Do you supplement with taurine? Do you ensure you have organs like chicken liver/heart in the mix? Cats are obligatory carnivores which means they only get essential nutrients (like taurine) from their food. Humans can produce it without eating meat.

The hardest part for me was sourcing the chicken liver/heart. I completely forgot about that issue until now. I know it’s possible to only use chicken breasts and load with supplements.

Ps: My knowledge on cat nutrition is very limited. I am not an authority on this subject.

I use no supplements.

I follow Cats Completely Raw and Proud (Cat CRAP) recipes and calculator on face book.

All you need for the most basic recipe is bone and boneless chicken (not breast unless it is a small portion), and liver. You can use pork or beef or so on as well. Walmart always have beef liver in stock so that is my go-to. I will pick up other organs when I find them for variety. I do add sardines in water and the raw egg as well.

Some people use bone meal or eggshell (can't use eggshell with kittens) instead of bone.

Here is a small batch I made last night. Still had the calculator open.

I de-bone my own thighs sometimes and keep the bones (freeze em) to make either homemade broth for humans or home made broth for the cats (no seasoning in this case). I just add some broth to their food instead of water.

I have a grinder that can handle bone as 1 of my 3 cats won't chew up bone (she is a diva). The other two will chew up whole bones just fine though.