The Mindstream is DEAD!! I'm getting mine soon!

[dz6t]

I really hope it’s accurate and reliable.

Dave

Accuracy and reliability are my major concerns for this device.

 

[dz6t]

Are you trying to save others from making a perceived mistake?

I think this is the point. There are so many snake oil, scams, over promising, inaccurate and unreliable product for this hobby.

 

[MnFish1]

@MnFish1
Did you have any comments on the calculations? Would love to know what you think:

This is referring to a 4-5 years model earlier user and resonated with me(with some modification I did to make it apple to apple and more comparable to me personally). Pleade correct any wrong data you see here...

Mindstream would cost ~$2677. 10 paramaters testing and monitoring

Neptune based cost ~2700~$3500. Testing 7 paramaters.

Am trying to do similar calculation to xepta and ghl but some of the prices are not known yet so calculation will be missing. But what I know is in the details

Details:
MindStream
Base Unit Cost = $1,000
Service - Every five years = $0
Subscription Disk = $34.95 per month or $1677 for four years
Four Year Total Cost = $2,677

Neptune Trident
Trident Base Unit Cost = $600
Apex package= 800$ this come with 3 probs only
Apex head without probs=400$
Apex o2 prob+module=775$
Service - every 18-24 months is less than $100 for a self-service kit or $150-$200 for a factory job. = Self service $200 - Factory $300 to $400
Reagents for four years = $1080 (I confirmed the calibration standard ships with the reagents so you should recalibrate every two months according to Neptune's FAQ)
Four Year Total Cost ~ $27000 to $3500 without counting for the yearly maintenance for trident that is another adder.

GHL:
Profilux package=$1000 thinks comparable to apex package but has more functionalities..
Profilux basic=$800 this give you way more than apex head alone
Khd= $800
Iod director=??
Ion probs cost=??

Xepta:
My understanding this package that will test and dose is around 1300 to 1400$.
Probs and reagent cost=??

Yes. I agree. I did a similar analysis comparing mmindstream and apex trident 2 issues with mindstream. 1. Though it measures 10 parameters some of them I am not sure if I would use. Second you can’t control stuff with the product. Yet. I as already stated don’t use my apex for control and find the probes etc lacking. So this seema to be a great idea for monitoring. I would take it every Time over apex trident

 

[Bleigh]

I'm very excited about this product. When I first switched to salt water earlier this year, I tried super hard to buy it on impulse. Then I realized it hadn't come to market yet. Now that I have testing under my belt, I don't feel like it is super important, but is on the list of things to get eventually. That being said, the moment it has any kind of dosing connection, this product will move to the top of my wishlist.

I wonder, if you have multiple tanks and get multiple devices, is the subscription fee multiplied for each device, or is there some lower cost since *hopefully* the data would all be held in the same account and the discs would be shipped together?

 

[Jeff_H]

Yes. I agree. I did a similar analysis comparing mmindstream and apex trident 2 issues with mindstream. 1. Though it measures 10 parameters some of them I am not sure if I would use. Second you can’t control stuff with the product. Yet. I as already stated don’t use my apex for control and find the probes etc lacking. So this seema to be a great idea for monitoring. I would take it every Time over apex trident

I agree with MnFish - For me, it's not MS vs. Neptune. I'm going to pick the best tool for the job and provide extra redundancy if possible. Getting past the initial cost, I'm happy to pay $35 per month to have an electronic petsitter check, report, and alert on 10 water parameters ever 15 minutes 24X7X365.

 

[road_runner]

I agree with MnFish - For me, it's not MS vs. Neptune. I'm going to pick the best tool for the job and provide extra redundancy if possible. Getting past the initial cost, I'm happy to pay $35 per month to have an electronic petsitter check, report, and alert on 10 water parameters ever 15 minutes 24X7X365.

Agreed as well,
To me its tester against tester.. cost, abilities and convenience wise.
It's a choice between MM, Neptune, GHL, xepta..ect

 

[road_runner]

I'm very excited about this product. When I first switched to salt water earlier this year, I tried super hard to buy it on impulse. Then I realized it hadn't come to market yet. Now that I have testing under my belt, I don't feel like it is super important, but is on the list of things to get eventually. That being said, the moment it has any kind of dosing connection, this product will move to the top of my wishlist.

I wonder, if you have multiple tanks and get multiple devices, is the subscription fee multiplied for each device, or is there some lower cost since *hopefully* the data would all be held in the same account and the discs would be shipped together?

I think if the product proved to be successful they can either partner with a doser or add their own, dosers are such a commodity building one should not be a challenge.
I can see in the future doser companies use mindstream cloud APIs to dose depend on measurment results. Doser will not need to be physically connected to mindstream, just get the reading from mindstream cloud..

 

[Lasse]

It took time to read through this thread with a lot of information and maybe more no-information where - as I understand - a sponsor was insulted and more or less accused for being a fraud company

Into the real world of measurements

It's an electrical prob..

I´m not so sure of this. I have been working with the old types of ion selective probes based on electrical measurements (pH and clark´s electrodes (the most common oxygen probe) are all ion selective probes, Redox and conductivity probes measure differences in potential and conductivity) Probes that measure the potential from different ions like Ca, Mg, NO3 and others is very difficult to work with and more or less need laboratory environment. The new type of measure different ions and gases in water is IMO based on other principles, probably light and fluorescence from different dyes. I think - that technically - the MS and the other (GHL and Coral Value) is rather similar in function. And it is the future and will sooner or later compete out other methods both in reliability, repeatability and pricing

But the Alkatronic measured Total Alkalinity and the Mindstream measures Carobate Alkalinity. So these values should not be the same.

This is both good and bad :) Good - because it measure the real Carbonate alkalinity (that´s of interest for us because it tell us how much HCO3 and CO3 ions we have) The bad is that we have to rethinking and change our reference tools according to levels of alkalinity. If we normally have said that 7 dKH is good enough - the real Carbonate alkalinity maybe only is 6.6 or so.

I love that MS can measure O2 and CO2 - Two parameters that are undervalued in reefing IMO.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Regarding data logging export, from what I've read recently, Apex Fusion/Triton does not allow it and neither does the GHL solution.

For GHL - I´m not sure with the cloud bu if you have the GCC you can save it locally. But it is in a format that is not usable for Excel

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

It took time to read through this thread with a lot of information and maybe more no-information where - as I understand - a sponsor was insulted and more or less accused for being a fraud company

Into the real world of measurements

I´m not so sure of this. I have been working with the old types of ion selective probes based on electrical measurements (pH and clark´s electrodes (the most common oxygen probe) are all ion selective probes, Redox and conductivity probes measure differences in potential and conductivity) Probes that measure the potential from different ions like Ca, Mg, NO3 and others is very difficult to work with and more or less need laboratory environment. The new type of measure different ions and gases in water is IMO based on other principles, probably light and fluorescence from different dyes. I think - that technically - the MS and the other (GHL and Coral Value) is rather similar in function. And it is the future and will sooner or later compete out other methods both in reliability, repeatability and pricing

This is both good and bad :) Good - because it measure the real Carbonate alkalinity (that´s of interest for us because it tell us how much HCO3 and CO3 ions we have) The bad is that we have to rethinking and change our reference tools according to levels of alkalinity. If we normally have said that 7 dKH is good enough - the real Carbonate alkalinity maybe only is 6.6 or so.

I love that MS can measure O2 and CO2 - Two parameters that are undervalued in reefing IMO.

Sincerely Lasse

What would you find the use for o2 and co2? Curious because I’m really interested in this

 

[road_runner]

What would you find the use for o2 and co2? Curious because I’m really interested in this

Co2 will give insights about your ph when its low or high..
For o2, one thing I can see is when we treat cyano and dino ad an example, we are usually warned to watch out for o2 levels(especially when we turn off the skimmer) that's why it is recomended to drop an airstone..
I can also see o2 an indication of the skimmer health, power heads effectivness..ect

 

[road_runner]

It took time to read through this thread with a lot of information and maybe more no-information where - as I understand - a sponsor was insulted and more or less accused for being a fraud company

Into the real world of measurements

I´m not so sure of this. I have been working with the old types of ion selective probes based on electrical measurements (pH and clark´s electrodes (the most common oxygen probe) are all ion selective probes, Redox and conductivity probes measure differences in potential and conductivity) Probes that measure the potential from different ions like Ca, Mg, NO3 and others is very difficult to work with and more or less need laboratory environment. The new type of measure different ions and gases in water is IMO based on other principles, probably light and fluorescence from different dyes. I think - that technically - the MS and the other (GHL and Coral Value) is rather similar in function. And it is the future and will sooner or later compete out other methods both in reliability, repeatability and pricing

This is both good and bad :) Good - because it measure the real Carbonate alkalinity (that´s of interest for us because it tell us how much HCO3 and CO3 ions we have) The bad is that we have to rethinking and change our reference tools according to levels of alkalinity. If we normally have said that 7 dKH is good enough - the real Carbonate alkalinity maybe only is 6.6 or so.

I love that MS can measure O2 and CO2 - Two parameters that are undervalued in reefing IMO.

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks for the insight I am still trying to learn about these ion probs. Although I do not think its light based. I think they are made of gold continously measure the property which change against water chemistry

 

[Lasse]

It is not a technic I know anything about. According to the video - the replacement probes would be in the $20 range - do not sounds like gold for me :)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[road_runner]

It is not a technic I know anything about. According to the video - the replacement probes would be in the $20 range - do not sounds like gold for me :)

Sincerely Lasse

:) contain gold doesn't not neccesarily mean expensive
Your phone, tablets, computers all have gold ha ha. But I honestly also not in the weed if the technical understanding of these probs so do not get me wrong. Am guessing from readings I have dome here and there.
Its fascinating topic for me to tell you the truth, I am trying to understand how these probs functions.

 

[bluprntguy]

FWIW looking over the checkout procedures and billing procedures on the mindstream site. It says in the terms and conditions that 20% is due upon preorder and the remainder is charged when the unit is shipped. Unless I’m misreading.

I'm not really interested in joining this 'discussion' in this thread, but this is just flat out wrong. The section on their terms and conditions that you are referencing starts out with the sentence "Subscriptions may be made available for pre-order via the Services." I have no idea why someone would pre-order a service, but this section of their TOS clearly applies to services that you would add via their online portal in the future.

I assumed that you'd argue with it, because that's what you do, so I simply logged onto Facebook and asked the question of the company itself via PM. They confirmed that if you buy a mindstream now, you will be immediately charged the full purchase price even though the product will not be shipped for some time. FWIW, they said the initial orders may ship early but that they were being conservative.

 

[User1]

I don't know much about the product but I do know I'm personally not a fan of subscriptions. Everyone wants their piece of the pie and it is getting worse every day. Having said that there are some products that require some form of regent replacement be it manual test or automated. Then there are some here that use the probes. I think both have their respected place and I would use either.

What I won't do though is use a product that has something that falls in the middle or gray area and is an actual subscription by combing a regent and a portal. No thank you. And no, I'm not calling out one product for another. I just happen to have a line in the sand that works for me.

Now - I will say that some of these products may not have, or have learned from, the Trident launch. Not knocking them but the continued lack of improving product release is leaving the doors open for others to launch which will give people, rightly so, reason to pause and consider other choices. I fall into this boat because I've tried to buy the Trident now twice only to fail due to the store front issues and waiting lists not providing position in line.

So while I wait for the unit I was looking at to tie into my controller topology may end up actually letting me go back to my Reef Angel and use another product. Thus me landing here to see what all the hub bub is about :)

 

[road_runner]

I'm not really interested in joining this 'discussion' in this thread, but this is just flat out wrong. The section on their terms and conditions that you are referencing starts out with the sentence "Subscriptions may be made available for pre-order via the Services." I have no idea why someone would pre-order a service, but this section of their TOS clearly applies to services that you would add via their online portal in the future.

I assumed that you'd argue with it, because that's what you do, so I simply logged onto Facebook and asked the question of the company itself via PM. They confirmed that if you buy a mindstream now, you will be immediately charged the full purchase price even though the product will not be shipped for some time. FWIW, they said the initial orders may ship early but that they were being conservative.

Useful clarification thank you for sharing.
I agree why would you pre order subscription..
Let's see how the product perform in the market and data will show how good or bad it is..I really hope they deliver what they are promising.

 

[reeferKen]

"initial orders may ship early but that they were being conservative." May might include may-not. It's been a long wait. Now mastertronic is on the front page of reefbuilders.

 

[Lasse]

@Ohashimz If you have been at the doctor and they put a funny plastic cap over your thumb. The thumb become read and the doctor says 85 % saturation of blood oxygen - then you have test the technique I think they use.

@MnFish1 Fact about oxygen, saltwater and temperature. The content of free oxygen gas in water is mainly depended of the temperature in open systems. In freshwater 100% saturation of O2 is 8.25, 8.12, 7.97 and 7.84 mg/l (ppm) at 25, 26, 27 and 28 degree C. Saltwater contain around 1.5 ppm lower - it means around 6.75, 6.62, 6.47 and 6.34 mg/l (ppm). Source. 100 % saturation is not very common during night time - normally it is around 80% in a tank with a good skimmer - it means that the oxygen level is around 5.3 - 5.0 mg/l. During daytime (if there is photosynthetic organism in the system) oxygen levels can rise very high - more than 100% (supersaturation). But when the light turns down - the photosynthesis disappear and the coral animals (and fish, inverts, bacteria and other oxygen users) will lower the oxygen levels through the cell metabolism (even algae does that) If you have a tank with a huge biomass of corals (as I do) - there is a huge risk that oxygen levels can go below 5.0 ppm and that can be fatal. Low oxygen levels is also a stress factor for fish and many disease outbreak can be caused by this IMO. Before this tank - I run mainly without a skimmer and an oxydator. In this tank - I use an over-sized skimmer for aeration of my water (and for other type of gas exchange), an oxydator and a reversed refugium. all of this because of the problem with oxygen and saltwater. Below 5 mg/l (ppm) the second step in the nitrification process can stop too - known from fresh water.

Many issues with corals may be connected with low oxygen levels during night time. For fish - I have had one huge fish kill in an aquarium with much soft corals during one night - no skimmer in that tank. This with low oxygen levels during night time and a huge biomass of photosynthetic organisms is well known from planted fresh water aquariums.

Carbon dioxide is a underestimated problem too (IMO) to high CO2 levels can stress fish and even kill fish. It is also depended of the light regime because it is the waste from the respiration of O2. The pH drop you see during night time is caused by CO2 production from your organisms respiration. For me - this is two parameters that can crash a tank.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

I'm not really interested in joining this 'discussion' in this thread, but this is just flat out wrong. The section on their terms and conditions that you are referencing starts out with the sentence "Subscriptions may be made available for pre-order via the Services." I have no idea why someone would pre-order a service, but this section of their TOS clearly applies to services that you would add via their online portal in the future.

I assumed that you'd argue with it, because that's what you do, so I simply logged onto Facebook and asked the question of the company itself via PM. They confirmed that if you buy a mindstream now, you will be immediately charged the full purchase price even though the product will not be shipped for some time. FWIW, they said the initial orders may ship early but that they were being conservative.

And I assumed you'd show up becasuse nearly every where PS shows up you show up - with the same types of comments. Looking back you both joined and started posting on basically the same date. I'll give you the same response I gave to him: LOL.

If you had read the quote that I put on this thread (about the 20%) it said 'Unless I'm misunderstanding'. It didnt make sense to me (that it would be a subscription on pre-order). In good faith I looked up terms and read them the way I thought they were meant. WOW - Aren't I a horrible person.... LOL.

Frankly - I dont care - either way it makes no difference to me. I dont think a 20% downpayment is a big advantage for either one.

By the way - if you aren't interested in joining the discussion - don't join it. And going forward - can you please just not use my name in a post - just ignore whatever I say - rather than knee jerk pick apart 1 post out of several and post in the way you do. Thanks.

Here is my horribly inaccurate quote:

FWIW looking over the checkout procedures and billing procedures on the mindstream site. It says in the terms and conditions that 20% is due upon preorder and the remainder is charged when the unit is shipped. Unless I’m misreading.