The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[Mortie31]

A ton! Unfortunately he learned his bad habits from me, my tanks are always overstocked as well. Part of why I’ve had to “master” parasite eradication and fish behavior LOL!

I’m actually astonished by this cavalier attitude you have towards grossly overstocking your tanks.... especially given the way you almost religiously talk about QT, maybe you should put up advice “to newbies, that overstocking tanks is bad for the long term health and development of fish” again ICK isn’t the only thing to consider with keeping a fish for “the natural duration of its life” one thing Paul B seems to take seriously and with zero ego... I’m starting to question some of the motives behind what your doing!! @HotRocks looking at your stocking list and tank if you removed half of your fish you would still be overstocked by the accepted norms...

 

[Wh00pS32]

Agree 100%. The condition of fish here is so much different. I know members of R2R in Australia, UK, Sweden, to name a few that have never seen ich or velvet on a fish due to much stricter laws, regulations, practices, etc.

Sorry but thats just not true, maybe Australia as they don't really have to ship that much being sat on the largest reef in the world, plus they have very strict input laws on marine life being imported into Aus.
As for the UK and Europe, well ich, velvet and everything else is just as rampant here as it is in the US. Just check out any of the forums or facebook groups from those areas and you will see just as many posts about these problems as you will anywhere else.

 

[Mortie31]

Sorry but thats just not true, maybe Australia as they don't really have to ship that much being sat on the largest reef in the world, plus they have very strict input laws on marine life being imported into Aus.
As for the UK and Europe, well ich, velvet and everything else is just as rampant here as it is in the US. Just check out any of the forums or facebook groups from those areas and you will see just as many posts about these problems as you will anywhere else.

How differently people see things as I completely disagree with you, I’d say our (UK) incidence of these diseases are far less, a quick search on UR which is possibly the most Uk of forums will reveal that, I counted 10 possible disease threads since September...and it appears quarantining fish by reefers in the Uk is far less than in the US in particular, which would normally imply a higher incidence... the Uk does suffer with them obviously but I think the way we predominantly purchase our livestock differs, I have 10 LFS within an hours drive, I can check livestock thoroughly before purchase, I can see the husbandry of the LFS, I develop relationships with these shops... and a certain level of trust... i hope this is the case worldwide, but reading on these forums tells me it isn’t like this... I would never dream of mailordering a fish and thankfully have no need...

 

[Paul B]

This is a thread about another way to run a tank. It is not against quarantining or liberals. I did not write every aspect of my particular tank because I didn't think it was important here. If you are interested there is a thread of my tank here. It is about 9 years long and documents quite a bit.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-birthday-47-years.55423/

I have had numerous lights, heaters, algae scrubbers, skimmers, ozonizers and various inventions and feeders over the decades the tank has been running.
The tank has never crashed after the first few weeks when I filled it with driveway gravel and water from under the Brooklyn Bridge.
If your fish only die of old age, keep doing what you do. It's great.
If they ever die from something else, you are failing. It is as simple as that.
I didn't mean anyone has to change their methods. This is a reef tank discussion. Of course if someone is passionate of their methods, post an article or write a book. I would like to read it.
My original water came from near here, in the East River in Manhattan. Is that bad?

 

[Wh00pS32]

How differently people see things as I completely disagree with you, I’d say our (UK) incidence of these diseases are far less, a quick search on UR which is possibly the most Uk of forums will reveal that, I counted 10 possible disease threads since September...and it appears quarantining fish by reefers in the Uk is far less than in the US in particular, which would normally imply a higher incidence... the Uk does suffer with them obviously but I think the way we predominantly purchase our livestock differs, I have 10 LFS within an hours drive, I can check livestock thoroughly before purchase, I can see the husbandry of the LFS, I develop relationships with these shops... and a certain level of trust... i hope this is the case worldwide, but reading on these forums tells me it isn’t like this... I would never dream of mailordering a fish and thankfully have no need...

I've been a member of Ultimate Reef since the early 2000's and it's pretty much dead now and compared to the size of this forum UR has many many times fewer (active) members than here so obviously there will be far fewer disease threads.
Just check Facebook groups if you want to see how bad it is for disease in the UK almost every 2nd topic is someone with one disease or another in thier tanks.
You do know that those 10 LFS thats close to you all get thier livestock from the same suppliers as the guys in the US and it's all shipped the same way. Most UK stock comes through TMC but they still buy from the same sources as the US importers.

 

[4FordFamily]

I’m actually astonished by this cavalier attitude you have towards grossly overstocking your tanks.... especially given the way you almost religiously talk about QT, maybe you should put up advice “to newbies, that overstocking tanks is bad for the long term health and development of fish” again ICK isn’t the only thing to consider with keeping a fish for “the natural duration of its life” one thing Paul B seems to take seriously and with zero ego... I’m starting to question some of the motives behind what your doing!! @HotRocks looking at your stocking list and tank if you removed half of your fish you would still be overstocked by the accepted norms...

You are free to think and feel any way you wish, if that makes you feel better.

I probably have malicious motives behind spending hours each day here helping people, and if I had to guess, @HotRocks probably does too.

 

[Tony Thompson]

How differently people see things as I completely disagree with you, I’d say our (UK) incidence of these diseases are far less, .

I've been a member of Ultimate Reef since the early 2000's and it's pretty much dead now and compared to the size of this forum UR has many many times fewer (active) members than here so obviously there will be far fewer disease threads.
Just check Facebook groups if you want to see how bad it is for disease in the UK almost every 2nd topic is someone with one disease or another in thier tanks.
You do know that those 10 LFS thats close to you all get thier livestock from the same suppliers as the guys in the US and it's all shipped the same way. Most UK stock comes through TMC but they still buy from the same sources as the US importers.

Hi @Wh00pS32 . Thanks for saving me the need to comment. I was writing a similar response. I agree totally. All though I would not link a particular wholesaler by name. There is a direct connection between the major importer in the USA and the UK. Also it is obvious that the hobby in the USA is far greater than that in the UK , Just look at the import figures.

I do agree with @Mortie31 with regards mail order though. I would expect that the additional stress encountered by mail order could possibly have a further effect on weakening the fishes resistance to any disease it may be carrying. Always a pleasure to see fellow UK reefers on the R2R Forum. Best wishes to you both.

 

[Mortie31]

I've been a member of Ultimate Reef since the early 2000's and it's pretty much dead now and compared to the size of this forum UR has many many times fewer (active) members than here so obviously there will be far fewer disease threads.
Just check Facebook groups if you want to see how bad it is for disease in the UK almost every 2nd topic is someone with one disease or another in thier tanks.
You do know that those 10 LFS thats close to you all get thier livestock from the same suppliers as the guys in the US and it's all shipped the same way. Most UK stock comes through TMC but they still buy from the same sources as the US importers.

Fair comment, I don’t bother with FB groups and yes some of those 10 use TMC, others import “directly” from whom, I don’t know, I’m not privy to that information.

 

[Mortie31]

You are free to think and feel any way you wish, if that makes you feel better.

I probably have a negative motives behind spending hours each day here helping people, and if I had to guess, @HotRocks probably does too.

I understand and applaud your passion about QT and see how much effort you put in to help people with ICK, I’ve noticed you didn’t comment on overstocking and the impact that has on the long term health of fish...

 

[Sandbox]

This is a thread about another way to run a tank. It is not against quarantining or liberals. I did not write every aspect of my particular tank because I didn't think it was important here. If you are interested there is a thread of my tank here. It is about 9 years long and documents quite a bit.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-birthday-47-years.55423/

I have had numerous lights, heaters, algae scrubbers, skimmers, ozonizers and various inventions and feeders over the decades the tank has been running.
The tank has never crashed after the first few weeks when I filled it with driveway gravel and water from under the Brooklyn Bridge.
If your fish only die of old age, keep doing what you do. It's great.
If they ever die from something else, you are failing. It is as simple as that.
I didn't mean anyone has to change their methods. This is a reef tank discussion. Of course if someone is passionate of their methods, post an article or write a book. I would like to read it.
My original water came from near here, in the East River in Manhattan. Is that bad?

You are a breath of fresh air lol and make me laugh so much.

 

[4FordFamily]

I understand and applaud your passion about QT and see how much effort you put in to help people with ICK, I’ve noticed you didn’t comment on overstocking and the impact that has on the long term health of fish...

That’s primarily because I don’t know that answer and I can’t really comment as it’s not been a serious issue, using water parameters and behavior as a gauge, IME.

I’m very up front, so if my husbandry has a negative aspect it’s that. I always overdo my nutrient export and my fish seem as happy, if not happier, than my local peers with fewer fish based on what I know about behavior. In fact, I see less aggression based on the tangs or aggressive fish I mixed I suspect because they cannot defend a territory effectively, so they begin to behave as they would when they roam the reef looking for new places to graze— less territorial. I would say the way I’ve done it I see less aggression particularly amongst generally aggressive and territorial fish. Again though I don’t recommend people do as I have I’ve only shown @HotRocks “my way”. Which is solely based on experience and some anecdote. Perhaps I’ve been lucky all this time and I’m off-base— hence why I don’t suggest it to others. We also have several tanks so if something goes awry we have a plan B or C.

That said, I’ve spent a lot of time studying fish behavior, understanding their behavior, observing their behavior, and figuring it how to do it without issues for the fish. You won’t see me recommend stocking the way @HotRocks and I do. It’s simply playing with fire and not for most hobbyists. You’re just fine to question the ethics of it all, it’s a fair point. I personally feel differently than you about it in my case but I respect your opinion and suspect you’re not the only one that holds it.

 

[Bradley Keck]

Thank you Paul for sharing your experience and knowledge with everyone on R2R. As a "Newb" all of the knowledge gained from years of trail and error by many of the people who have posted on this thread ( 4 ford family, humblefish, and hot rocks to name a few) is invaluable to me. Your discussions provide insight into what processes work well for long-term success. Long term success to me is minimal to no mortality of the living things we place in our tanks other than due to time itself. Over the past couple of years I have read many an article on here preparing to start my own reef aquarium journey and the one thing I keep coming back to is stability of the environment. Something that initially requires constant monitoring and water changes, but over time begins to occur naturally. Regardless of what system one uses for introduction or what equipment you have on your system, you must have stability or bad things are going to happen. In regards to how to go about introducing animals into our reefs, the main difference I see here is one promotes having the pathogens in the tank while being sure to provide the nutrition necessary to stay healthy in that environment, while the other focuses on ridding the animals of all possible pathogens prior to placing them in a tank that is mostly void of these pathogens. In this case, the use of natural whole foods is less important it would seem. Does that sound about right? I like that there is no one method of keeping our fish healthy and I would argue that there will likely never be one sure method. Too many uncontrolled variables to ever be valid (for those of you who want to look at this as a controlled experiment). My tank has been up and running for only 5 months. I have 1 midas blenny, 1 yellow eye Kole tang, one Melanarus wrasse, one mystery wrasse, one line spot flasher wrasse, and one orange diamond back goby in a 150g tank. They came from various online retailers and from LFS. None were quarantined. I employed a rather fast drip acclimation (10 min) after a 15 minute float in the sump. Lights out for the first couple of hours after intro to the tank, and then really focused on getting the new addition to eat that day. I feed LRS and PE mysis soaked in Selcon and Garlic 3x/day. I add strips of Nori to this mixture for the tang. We will see how it goes, but so far everyone is happy and healthy. My process is going to be to feed well with a "lightly stocked" tank and focus on stability of the whole system. I don't plan on being a "neat freak" with my tank, but I do try to have most my algae growing down in the sump where I just let everything grow everywhere. I will keep my glass clean otherwise, its all for not. My tang, goby, and CUC more than take care of the rock and sand for me. Thank you again for all the helpful info!

 

[sfin52]

.

I'll go back to basic training (AF) the first day we got to basic we were marched over to the medical side of the base and went through immunization shots. At the end of the process we had a penicillin shot in the buttocks. Most of us still got sick. The question is would we still been sick with out the shot or would have been sicker.
I don't know if this has been said. I think there's room for both methods and use at the same time.

Qt for treatment and for restoring the immune system. Just because we or the fish are exposed to the diese doesn't mean we'll get it. We've all been sick and had to take antibiotics or at least most of us. Fish in the wild that get sick are eaten as in any habitat.

Fish that come in our care may need a hand in restoring thier health. Than we can work on the natural immune system.

 

[Mortie31]

That’s primarily because I don’t know that answer and I can’t really comment as it’s not been a serious issue, using water parameters and behavior as a gauge, IME.

I’m very up front, so if my husbandry has a negative aspect it’s that. I always overdo my nutrient export and my fish seem as happy, if not happier, than my local peers with fewer fish based on what I know about behavior. In fact, I see less aggression based on the tangs or aggressive fish I mixed I suspect because they cannot defend a territory effectively, so they begin to behave as they would when they roam the reef looking for new places to graze— less territorial. I would say the way I’ve done it I see less aggression particularly amongst generally aggressive and territorial fish. Again though I don’t recommend people do as I have I’ve only shown @HotRocks “my way”. Which is solely based on experience and some anecdote. Perhaps I’ve been lucky all this time and I’m off-base— hence why I don’t suggest it to others. We also have several tanks so if something goes awry we have a plan B or C.

That said, I’ve spent a lot of time studying fish behavior, understanding their behavior, observing their behavior, and figuring it how to do it without issues for the fish. You won’t see me recommend stocking the way @HotRocks and I do. It’s simply playing with fire and not for most hobbyists. You’re just fine to question the ethics of it all, it’s a fair point. I personally feel differently than you about it in my case but I respect your opinion and suspect you’re not the only one that holds it.

Thankyou for taking the time to answer, it sounds like you are employing a similar method as Ciclid keepers do, and it’s an interesting way to do things, and I’ll be interested to see how things go long term as your fish grow out and age... it’s funny how both you and Paul B say it’s not for newbies... sadly in my experience it’s exactly them that need the information and structure, that comes with experience and to not replicate others mistakes, and it’s good to see a few still participating in this thread..

 

[theMeat]

Thankyou for taking the time to answer, it sounds like you are employing a similar method as Ciclid keepers do, and it’s an interesting way to do things, and I’ll be interested to see how things go long term as your fish grow out and age... it’s funny how both you and Paul B say it’s not for newbies... sadly in my experience it’s exactly them that need the information and structure, that comes with experience and to not replicate others mistakes, and it’s good to see a few still participating in this thread..

so true
For how many years did chiclid people warn against not putting too many to avoid aggression. Until someone had the courage and confidence to overload a tank with them only to be surprised that instead of more aggression they started schooling. Also agree that this type of out of the box thinking should be embraced by newbs. While I would hesitate to suggest it for new unestablished tanks.

People are reactionary by nature. When we see a sick fish we want to help.

 

[User1]

Thankyou for taking the time to answer, it sounds like you are employing a similar method as Ciclid keepers do, and it’s an interesting way to do things, and I’ll be interested to see how things go long term as your fish grow out and age... it’s funny how both you and Paul B say it’s not for newbies... sadly in my experience it’s exactly them that need the information and structure, that comes with experience and to not replicate others mistakes, and it’s good to see a few still participating in this thread..

With regards to stock limits I always ask for a definition. Seems it is more of a guideline than anything else. Sure in freshwater there is number per gallon, etc but saltwater it is different, right? However, it is of my believe the onus is on the hobbyist to setup their system such that it can sustain the livestock, all of it be it coral, fish, inverts, etc, to the best of their ability. Gets back to a dog, cat, hamster, or bird comment. Routine checkups, clean, food, water, immunization, and of course sleeping environment.

Fish need food. Fish need personal space to sleep, spawn, and call their own. If you start adding fish regardless of the numbers and they all forage for the same food, graze on the same algae (or there is none in the tank due to it being new or sterile), or want the same nook to sleep in means you are already setting up to fail. On the other hand if the system has enough of that stuff to meet their needs then who is to say what is or is not overstocked?

Taking a step back sure we can have clear examples of what is over stocked - 100 Lt. Tangs in a 200 gallon tank. Sure, we would all agree that is over stocked. However, is 100 Azure damsels overstocked? Again - it is the onus of the hobbyist to set it up properly.

 

[EmdeReef]

Don’t want to derail the thread but anyone who’s dived around healthy reefs knows that they’re very crowded and seemingly chaotic places. I know it’s a limited value comparison but fwiw as someone who’s addicted to angels I’ll say that I’ve had much better success keeping angels healthy long term since I started “overstocking” some years ago.

While @4FordFamily and @HotRocks beat me by a healthy margin in “overstocking” (hats off) I’m there too and in my observations (take with as many grains of salt) there’s definitely much less territorial aggression and at least IME I’ve had fewer corals ending up as snacks.

That said, there’s a huge difference overstocking a 4ft and a 6+ ft tank and that’s why It’s not advisable for someone just starting.

 

[Jay Norris]

Kmsutos... my point is simply that the filter may be able to remove one portion of the life cycle. That filter will not serve to cure ICK if you have it in your tank.. Sorry but no google search will say that. I think we are saying the same thing. It will only kill one part of the life cycle to a point. The life cycle will live on. To the newbies here.. it is not a cure to ICK. Ozone is not a cure to ICK. You must use one of the proven methods to QT. Many systems go years and years and decades fine and with ICK. Most tanks out there have it but the fish survive due to good food, clean water ect. We need to be clear for those newbies who are told they do not need to QT.. That in my two cents of an opinion would be very bad advice to say no need to QT. Paul's tank is the rare one not the usual.

Hi, then I must be in the category of having one of the rare systems, either I have been very, very lucky or my method of reef keeping is allowing my fish to live happy lives in their new home for many, many years without showing signs of diseases. Oh, I do not use ozone or diatomaceous earth to filter my water or vacuum my sand bed, I do use GFO and Carbon continuously, I do monthly NSW water changes, vacuum the sand bed every couple months, and top off using RO/DI water, I will be adding a Auto Water change system to my system in a few months, that will allow me to do water changes on a daily basis, which I believe will help benefit the tank. I also use very high quality live rock that I have had for decades, live sand that I collect from the Outer Reefs off the Florida Keys, and NSW collected further offshore in the same area. The fish in my system are either collected locally by me, or are bought from a LFS and never quarantined, like I say, maybe I am very, very lucky, but my fish also eat live food and very high quality frozen foods only, never flakes or pellets, and I am not saying that flake foods or pellet foods are bad, I just don't feed it to my fish. Yes I have lost some fish, but it was mostly my fault, but the one fish that I lost a few months ago, has me a bit baffled, it was a beautiful Black Angelfish, that I had for about 15 yrs, and when I went to the Display Tank in the morning to greet her, she was lying in the back corner against the back wall dead. Their were no signs of disease or trauma from what I could see, and she was out and about eating and swimming the night before the lights go out, really strange, maybe she died of a heart attack or something else I could not see, unless I had an autopsy done on her. Any way I do not advocate my way of keeping a reef to anyone, but, it works for me, and good luck to you and your way of keeping your system, happy and healthy.

 

[Paul B]

Trying to help a sick fish may not always help it. Doctors now give far fewer antibiotics than when I was a kid. They learned that it is better for our body to make it's own antibiotics and cure itself. Of course if your eye is falling out and your arm already fell off, you may need some type of intervention. But if you are sneezing, coughing and have a slight fever, you are probably just letting your immune system do what it's paid for.
Antibiotics short circuit our own healing processes.

I realize many fish come in sick and many people lose those fish. For some reason, I do not. I won't buy a fish with one eye or on life support but if I get it for free or very cheap, I will take it. My fish are immune so it does not hurt to put them in my tank. If they die, the crabs can have a party.

Not long ago I got a small copperband that was covered in parasites. Most of the rest of them in the store already died. (I posted about this and it is in my book) I got him for a couple of bucks and I think I put him in copper and formalin for a couple of days then threw him in my reef.
He was fine, the spots disappeared, he ate and was fantastic. My 10 year old copperband was not impressed so I had to catch the little guy and give him away.
But I am happy that any parasites he was carrying are in my tank just as the parasites from my new clown gobi and my shrimpfish. The more parasites, the better as they just improve the immunity of everything else.
You can say that ozone, skimmers, reverse UG filters, diatom filters, or Lady GaGa cured them and that's fine but my tank is very old, has been documented for decades and never crashed. I planned my tank for very long term survival, not just 4 or 5 years as that is not even the lifespan of almost anything. Even hermit crabs live at least 12 years.
I personally still have not heard of an old tank that was quarantined and the fish are never sick and dying of old age. With tangs the tank has to run at least 15 years as they can live that long or longer. If you have a tank less than about 12 years old, you can't really call it a success yet because the fish have not lived long enough to die of old age. It may be on it's way to success but it is not there yet. Just my opinion of course but that is my gauge to success. Just like if a person dies at age 15. Is that a success?
My reef is not overcrowded even though there are maybe 25 fish in it. Except for the copperband, they are all small, interesting and not so common fish. Missing in the video are some dragon faced pipes, possum wrasse, 2 Gecko Gobies, a bunch of anemone crabs and decorator crabs, scooter bleeny etc. Most of them are hiders but that is now what I am interested in. As I said many times, tangs and angels bore me as they are to common and while diving, those are what you see most often. But when I dive, I am all into peering into crevaces and under rocks. I want things that I never see. And that is what I try to keep.
The clowns, pipefish, cardinals and mandarins are constantly spawning.

​

 

[brandon429]

This thread needs to be new builds. It cannot be distinguished from literally every other thread on the matter, the upcoming page fifty, all with snippets of tanks already set up as the total fare and pics from prior threads in it.

We’ve got one new contributor in this many pages so far

You guys don’t need to waste time convincing yourselves, source out willing new setups to document, all this energy should be in your outbound marketing. Paul, you have the sole impetus here to provide that work to back your claim. It is not about your current tank. Just once, make it about your method running ten tanks.

There is no room for personal attacks when two people have linked two NEW builds they’re consulting, you can’t fight over that type of thing. Results do the fighting, you don’t even have to provide the eval, the new reefer will update with every detail under the sun, especially non compliant details

When two reefers compare already running systems and paradigms, arguments occur, make this thread a results comparison thread where we get to see the builds here- so many new tanks in the beginners forum are ready for experimentation and they want it


I set up work threads in my deep stage rem sleep and have six cyano cures collected as participant feedback before waking, with only a goldfish bowl for a reef - why is this like pulling teeth here. Y’all have corvette reefs and tons of readers who will let you guide their tank on file, live time, in one outbound pm. You could have ten ready by today Paul.