The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[chicago]

Good point

 

[User1]

Is this thread just about ICK? Almost all posters are just talking about ICK but isnt the thread more about an holistic approach for the total management of a fishes health? An outsider reading this thread would think fish only suffer from the 1 disease

No, it isn't.

I like the word you used, holistic. Good choice. But no, it isn't about one disease but more of a alternate process for not using a QT if one builds and maintains a system utilizing different foods such has clams, live worms, or other higher quality non-dry food like LRS or DIY seafood recipes. I don't think it has been said but I don't believe this is something someone can just start immediately. My opinion, and it is just mine, that this is (to borrow your word) a more holistic approach to keeping a healthy ecosystem. So whoever is interested needs to understand the method and how it works together otherwise the risk of failure is pretty high in my opinion.

We have all been sick here and we have all passed it along to others. Just how life works. Fish and marine life is no different. So while I get the idea, the concept, and actually see value (also note I do not QT), fish can catch, and pass along, sickness. Just like a coral can with pests. Just like humans can with flus, etc. A QT tank allows a place to medicate / treat in isolation so you don't have to tear down your display tank trying to catch it and wrecking more havoc or stress in the process. Medicating a display tank, well, is a nuclear option which usually means loss of corals and biological filtration...

Think of it this way. Let us say you have an established mixed reef with a pair of Clarion Angelfish and a few Bandits mixed in. Heck, let us add a Gem Tang just for fun. Fish price alone is pushing 20K and we didn't add up the corals. Mature corals = $ right? And let us not add in the designer stuff. But nice display full of corals and rare fish...more money.

Are you going to introduce a sick fish?
Are you going to introduce a fish without being through some form of isolation to watch?

Just to put another slant on it. Fish, and corals, are not a commodity. Again - not saying one is better. Whatever works for OP I think it is great and I sure in the heck wouldn't tell him to change, call him crazy, or anything else. I really like the discussion of how he feeds and with what. I think it is great and it makes sense. I'll leave the should, shouldn't QT thing alone because I see both good and bad in it.

Edit: And to get back to the food thing and why I like it. I had a GSD who had really bad seizures. I found her at her best both emotionally, personality wise, and health between seizures (time between them if you will) after I started to feed more natural food like chicken, cottage cheese, raw bones, and vegetables. Just like Paul noted with fish eating other fish - wolves go right for the stomach on a kill. There is a reason.

 

[Humblefish]

Also guess what my next 2 fish will be?

Blonde naso and a regal angel, temp acclimate and dumped in dt!

Where’s your build thread? I’d like to subscribe and follow your long-term progress.

 

[Paul B]

Humblefish asked me to start a thread on my practices and the first thing I told him was that there will be arguing.

. There was a ton more to his setup to the point this thread seems more like trolling for attention and make for beginners to be misinformed.

This is true, there is a ton more to my set up, and in the 9 years I have been on this forum I posted every aspect of my practices.
these are "my" theories and I can prove them.

If you read this thread I started on immunity you can see the research I put into it for this thread and my book
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-discussion-on-immunity.209701/

Here is a quote:
Immunological Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)
Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286–288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.
Non-parasitic fishes usually die following infection, but animals surviving sublethal parasite exposure become resistant to subsequent challenge. This resistance correlates with the presence of humoral antibodies in the sera and cutaneous mucus of immune fishes.
End quote

This goes on for many pages. I did not make up fish immunity as I am an electrician and not a researcher. But I try to prove what I propose in pictures. I have been showing my fish spawning and living out their lifetimes in many threads. My knowledge comes from experience and almost 300 hours underwater with the fish. None of it comes from rumors or the internet.

It seems that some people can't or won't get their fish immune so they will attack my methods. That is fine and what forums are for.
I have heard every argument and even Humblefish, my good friend disagrees with much of my theory (but we would never argue because we respect each others experience)
My tank and fish testify about my methods. I hope we can be civil here and not come up with silly things like the use of a diatom filter for a few hours a year.

 

[tehmadreefer]

Where’s your build thread? I’d like to subscribe and follow your long-term progress.

I don’t do build threads. Just not my thing.

I guess I could start something however, just won’t be a build thread, more of an update thread.

 

[Humblefish]

You know I love you, Paul. We’re just brothers from different mothers. Mine believed in QT, and yours didn’t. Other than that we might as well be twins. I just don’t know which of us is more handsome.

 

[Kremis]

I personally dont QT, however I keep this is mind when picking fish and know which ones will not work with this set up the majority of the time (acantharus tangs, etc)

 

[Humblefish]

I don’t do build threads. Just not my thing.

I guess I could start something however, just won’t be a build thread, more of an update thread.

You can start one here, and update it as often (or as little) as you like: https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/member-tanks.52/

 

[Paul B]

Well I certainly know the answer to that

I told you there would be arguments. Its a good thing I am senile and don't remember any of them.

 

[User1]

You can start one here, and update it as often (or as little) as you like: https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/member-tanks.52/

It is a trap!

 

[Humblefish]

Well I certainly know the answer to that

I told you there would be arguments. Its a good thing I am senile and don't remember any of them.

Things will settle down once all the testosterone gets used up.

 

[Tony Thompson]

Humblefish asked me to start a thread on my practices and the first thing I told him was that there will be arguing.

@Paul B .First of all may I congratulate you on an excellent article. Thanks for the link to your article and reference Immunological Defenses in Fish Skin.

I have a great respect to those who are open to put their ideas online for discussion and for that I applaud you. Its never easy in this hobby to put yourself up for what can sometimes become an interrogation. I think the most important aspect is that we discuss and explore different ideas. There is no magic bullet to reefing success. Each person needs to find a method that suites themselves.

Although I still find it difficult to fully understand the reason for not quarantining using commonly accepted methods. I wholly agree with the vast majority of your article and found it a very interesting read. Once again thanks for your input and Happy New Year.

 

[HotRocks]

Here’s a pic. I don’t run a UV or anything else in particular. Just a algae barrel and a fuge. Had my pbt for at least 6 months now.

I comment on a lot of threads you and 4ford reply on as you two think it’s absolutely necessary to qt powders and fish in general when it’s not. You specifically have been in the hobby what, 2 years? I’ve been doin this for well over a decade...

Here’s a pic of the fish in my tank along with 3 Anthias a cbb, Fox Face and clowns. Disregard the huge aiptasia outbreak lol

Add a matted file fish and bye bye aiptasia.

Yeah, in my couple of years I've probably handled more fish than your average hobbyist has in a decades time. That's besides the point. I am not trying to make an argument out if it. I spend quite a bit of time researching and retaining info. You are correct if someone asks me if you should QT an acanthurus tang or any other fish I would recommend proper QT. I have never done it any other way. I can base my opinion off of the experience of many people around me who used to do this Paul's way and have switched. I'm not saying my way is the only way. I also agree with all of Paul's feeding techniques and nutrition as it is a very important part of successful fish keeping.

Keeping a single tang will likely make this more successful not using QT due to the fact there is not much competition or stress. A lightly stocked tank is another factor.

My tank is overstocked and I am well aware. I keep 8 tangs in a 200. So would my fish survive ich management??? I can tell you one thing is for certain. I know darn good and well if I add a sick fish I'm in big trouble. I also keep a regal angel (interested in seeing how yours does and following your thread as well). I also keep 8 leopard wrasses (7 different species).

Another thing to consider is the condition of the current supply chain. I definitely get more sick fish than healthy fish arriving. So in my opinion most people are probably better off using QT in order to be successful. That's just how I feel about it. I never said the other way isn't an option, although it may be somewhat wreckless for an inexperienced person. I just want to see fat healthy fish no matter what route is taken.

 

[tehmadreefer]

This is a great discussion topic.

I wanted to extend my apologies for coming off a bit harsh. I’m particularly passionate as most others are in this hobby.

Everyone has a different way of doing things and we all strive to have the same goal: An awesome reef tank!

 

[HotRocks]

This is a great discussion topic.

I wanted to extend my apologies for coming off a bit harsh. I’m particularly passionate as most others are in this hobby.

Everyone has a different way of doing things and we all strive to have the same goal: An awesome reef tank!

I appreciate your kind words. I most definitely didn't mean any malice either, I hope it wasn't taken that way. I too am very passionate about R2R, the hobby, the fish etc! Let's keep it rolling. Oh here is a GIF of my tank.

 

[theMeat]

Cool beans

 

[Kmsutows]

Thankyou for clarifying, so to summarise...he feeds his fish very well, has wide biological variance and uses proven methods (DE, large skimmer and ozone) alongside this to maintain a healthy tank, sounds pretty good to me, and he doesn’t get any fatalities during quarantining, not sure why your so anti it, it sounds like a lot of good ideas to me...

On the contrary, I'm not anti his method at all... I am at odds with his lack of clarity on his setup and his ignoring the significance of what he does as a whole. Paul never gives credit to the two proven means he uses.

 

[PDR]

I appreciate your kind words. I most definitely didn't mean any malice either, I hope it wasn't taken that way. I too am very passionate about R2R, the hobby, the fish etc! Let's keep it rolling. Oh here is a GIF of my tank.

I thought I was overstocked! lol Looks great! I'm sure you've mentioned this, but how many fish and what size tank?

 

[4FordFamily]

I appreciate your kind words. I most definitely didn't mean any malice either, I hope it wasn't taken that way. I too am very passionate about R2R, the hobby, the fish etc! Let's keep it rolling. Oh here is a GIF of my tank.

It’s so much prettier in person when you can see those thick healthy Achilles, powder blue, powder brown, regal angel, and several other fish up close!

 

[4FordFamily]

I thought I was overstocked! lol Looks great! I'm sure you've mentioned this, but how many fish and what size tank?

A ton! Unfortunately he learned his bad habits from me, my tanks are always overstocked as well. Part of why I’ve had to “master” parasite eradication and fish behavior LOL!