The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[rkpetersen]

In my opinion, and I know we've argued at length about, you should point out all that encompasses your setup. I know you insist the ozone and diatom filtration doesnt do anything (even though you've always used them for 40yrs) but many others like myself would argue this is just as important as good nutrition for your fish and should be pointed out for those interested in replicating your setup.

Not mentioning those details in the first post is inexcusable. And the explanation of this method, no matter how successful it is, is mostly unreproducible and unverifiable hand-waving, which we see so often in this hobby from commercial interests as well as individuals who've had some success.

Don’t believe everything you read by the so called “experts” on this site.

Seriously, you again? You are a legitimate troll. There are forums that ban people like you without hesitation, although apparently not this one.

Alright, I need to hear the logic on this one. As a biologist it doesnt exactly make sense his tank is magical simply by bacteria. You and everyone else including Paul seem to be avoiding his true proven method of filtration that he also uses but disregards or some reason. UV and Ozone are PROVEN methods to kill parasites and have been used for decades. Why is everyone ignoring this? I assume they want an excuse for the easy way of just plop a fish in their tank and throw it some food and itll be good.

Exactly. The lack of legitimate scientific explanation in this thread is disheartening. Let's just make a lot of random observations for a few decades and then invent explanations out of thin air. That's the vibe I'm getting.

 

[tehmadreefer]

Not mentioning those details in the first post is inexcusable. And the explanation of this method, no matter how successful it is, is mostly unreproducible and unverifiable hand-waving, which we see so often in this hobby from commercial interests as well as individuals who've had some success.



Seriously, you again? You are a legitimate troll. There are forums that ban people like you without hesitation, although apparently not this one.



Exactly. The lack of legitimate scientific explanation in this thread is disheartening. Let's just make a lot of random observations for a few decades and then invent explanations out of thin air. That's the vibe I'm getting.

A forum troll? Wow, so my experience in the hobby with pics of my livestock is trolling, ok? Want more pics of my tank? Want to come to Florida and come inside my lovely home and see it first hand?

 

[Paul B]

Calm down guys, we are keeping fish, not curing ingrown toenails or building space shuttles. It's not important.

 

[tehmadreefer]

Calm down guys, we are keeping fish, not curing ingrown toenails or building space shuttles. It's not important.

True Paul. But when it’s forced down peoples throat, that’s it’s their way or no way. Being successful without a qt is something that they just cannot comprehend and unfortunately most haven’t been in the hobby long enough to know anything else.

Soo, human nature is to attack and find fault with those against the “mainstream” thinking.

 

[fulltang]

@yungreefer2410

I'm having to thumb scroll twenty times to reply heh

Yes that's great. You are testing the method very well, as the counter option of quarantine is an exercise in precision materials handling and time

They don't use environmental controls other than starvation/host removal, so to use uv, ozone, or any other method cannot confound. We already know bare white live rock + pre rinsed sand (consider bumming a scoop out of an asymptomatic main display somewhere/seeding) will commute infection

The literal opposite method is as aged and diverse of surfaces you can get, aquacultured rock with life knurls being ideal. Powerful skip cycle setup, a diversity transfer not an ammonia up/down transfer, you know what I mean by skip cycle. The heart of the TBS method of transfer. Strong water changes after install like cpr pumps, transfer all that life it'll stick in place just fine.

Thank you very much, you're going to have a great reef regardless of any outcome, and in my opinion you're aligning every variable I can think of because any combination of environmental control + feeding is a strong validation of tenets offered.

If you used a combo of UV, ozone, high micron straining/whatever, those don't confound a claim of time and isolation so I say align what you can to be infection free. if you pull it off from lfs to display skipping the normal ttm method and you can use a couple higher challenge fish it will be great.

Ps
I don't think an initial loss or two to a perhaps diseases ruins your test at all. Keep going if it occurs. I'm willing to accept and investigate if merely aging those awesome surfaces in place in your tank a while, on site maturation, makes your tank disease resistant over time.

We just need someone who will keep updates for a couple years as it progresses, this too is a time test. Initial fail is not even a confound. Arriving at disease resistance counts as a win for Paul's method.

First off, Brandon, thank you for the knowledge you've dropped across all the various reef forums. I'm in the research and set up phase of my first tank ever (Fluval 13.5), and I've pretty much scoured your post history which has been very helpful. With that in mind, how does this no QT method and your concept of aggressive tank reworking coincide, if at all?

My plan as of right now is to start with TBS live rock/sand only (and a clean up crew), stick with that until I'm comfortable caring for the hitchhikers, and just caring for a reef tank in general. Overall though, I'd say that fish are secondary to my interest in coral (right now).

I'll be posting up a journal soon.

 

[Mortie31]

Not mentioning those details in the first post is inexcusable. And the explanation of this method, no matter how successful it is, is mostly unreproducible and unverifiable hand-waving, which we see so often in this hobby from commercial interests as well as individuals who've had some success.

Not sure why you and @Kmsutows are so hung up about the diatom filter, it’s just mechanical filtration that’s used occasionally, why is it so important to you? If your implying it has a beneficial impact on disease resistance that @Paul B isn’t disclosing, then it’s genius in its simplicity and effectiveness. As for ozone, does it have any proven benefit in disease resistance or is it’s only benefit to get rid of yellowing? Just wondering why u both make such a big deal of these as I don’t get it..

 

[chicago]

Not sure if it is hung up on or to be clear.. as mentioned above... what this theard reaffirms.. so lets be positive.. is
1. Good nutrition aids in the ability to fight ICK.
2. Ozone helps to reduce ICK.. but does not cure it.
3. Diatom filtration can help clear water but does not remove ICK.
4. Healthy fish can withstand ICK and some become immune to it. In the sense they can live and fight bouts of it but would then be carriers.
5. Paul thank you for putting forward ideas. In the end, having been in the hobby for 4 decades. I have gone all routes. I currently am insanely QT. Anything wet. It is simply not worth the chance when it is so easy to QT.. See other threads for that.

To new hobby members.. I would never recommend NOT doing QT. Simply to much can go wrong. I do not see quality food ect being able to allow a fish to fight off Velvet or Brook. I would love for someone to come up with a cure for ICK.. until then QT. QT. QT. Just my 2 cents worth..

 

[Mark Gray]

I have this to say, Paul has been in this hobby for a little longer than I have, witch means he must be a lot older than me. I think I started in 1976 or 1977, I have run very similar to paul;s tank, but I have not had any as long as he has I have had tio move seveal time broken them down and sold them. My current 2 tanks have both had ICK introduced to them. The first one with a very small yellow tang I bought from a Petco for 15 or 20 dollars it was dyeing. That was at least 2 years ago it's a big fat heathy fish now did not treat it with anything. I believe the fish in the ocean are exposed to Ick and everything else but they don't die, if you can get them eating and keep them eating they will slowly become strong and live. This tank that the Yellow Tang is in has an UG filter. My newest tank is about 6 or 7 months old, I have a Purple Tang in it that came in with Ick scratching the first day. Eatting like a champ now and very heathy no meds. This tank is new style has a Fuge and no UG filter And a bad case of Dino's now.

 

[User1]

However the main reason for quarantine is not necessarily to save the life of a new acquisition, but to protect the whole community within your main display from unnecessary harm.

Bold for emphasis because it is a great point.

 

[Kmsutows]

Not sure why you and @Kmsutows are so hung up about the diatom filter, it’s just mechanical filtration that’s used occasionally, why is it so important to you? If your implying it has a beneficial impact on disease resistance that @Paul B isn’t disclosing, then it’s genius in its simplicity and effectiveness. As for ozone, does it have any proven benefit in disease resistance or is it’s only benefit to get rid of yellowing? Just wondering why u both make such a big deal of these as I don’t get it..

Diatom filters can filter out the free floating stage of ich. Ozone kills parasites that come in contact with it. Both methods will reduce the numbers of parasites allowing the well fed fish to come in contact with reduced numbers and hence able to just use their immune systems. Just like the UV I use. Proven in industry methods. Nothing new. Up until his recent move, Paul would show his huge like 6ft skimmer and long run where the ozone gets used up before the water goes back to the tank. There was a ton more to his setup to the point this thread seems more like trolling for attention and make for beginners to be misinformed.

 

[Kmsutows]

Not sure if it is hung up on or to be clear.. as mentioned above... what this theard reaffirms.. so lets be positive.. is
1. Good nutrition aids in the ability to fight ICK.
2. Ozone helps to reduce ICK.. but does not cure it.
3. Diatom filtration can help clear water but does not remove ICK.
4. Healthy fish can withstand ICK and some become immune to it. In the sense they can live and fight bouts of it but would then be carriers.
5. Paul thank you for putting forward ideas. In the end, having been in the hobby for 4 decades. I have gone all routes. I currently am insanely QT. Anything wet. It is simply not worth the chance when it is so easy to QT.. See other threads for that.

To new hobby members.. I would never recommend NOT doing QT. Simply to much can go wrong. I do not see quality food ect being able to allow a fish to fight off Velvet or Brook. I would love for someone to come up with a cure for ICK.. until then QT. QT. QT. Just my 2 cents worth..

Unless that was a typo you are very incorrect with point #3. Even just a quick google search bounces back "Diatomaceous Earth or DE is the only filter media that can filter out pathogens as small as one micron."

 

[Mortie31]

Unless that was a typo you are very incorrect with point #3. Even just a quick google search bounces back "Diatomaceous Earth or DE is the only filter media that can filter out pathogens as small as one micron."

This is interesting, wonder why its use isn’t widely known and it isn’t used more?

 

[Lowell Lemon]

@rkpetersen
Really we should expect more civility from someone who has all those shiny awards like reef squad and excellence awards don't you think? Calling someone names you disagree with is very counterproductive. You can simply say in your experience....and leave it at that.

I have been at his game both as a professional and a hobbiest since 1984. I often encounter different opinions but the strength of a good demonstration goes a long way. It is harder to educate than to dismiss and belittle.

Show us your excellence in the future and it will be rewarded by people who will respect and listen to what you have to say. Wishing you well on your journey and reef keeping experiance.

 

[Mortie31]

Diatom filters can filter out the free floating stage of ich. Ozone kills parasites that come in contact with it. Both methods will reduce the numbers of parasites allowing the well fed fish to come in contact with reduced numbers and hence able to just use their immune systems. Just like the UV I use. Proven in industry methods. Nothing new. Up until his recent move, Paul would show his huge like 6ft skimmer and long run where the ozone gets used up before the water goes back to the tank. There was a ton more to his setup to the point this thread seems more like trolling for attention and make for beginners to be misinformed.

Thankyou for clarifying, so to summarise...he feeds his fish very well, has wide biological variance and uses proven methods (DE, large skimmer and ozone) alongside this to maintain a healthy tank, sounds pretty good to me, and he doesn’t get any fatalities during quarantining, not sure why your so anti it, it sounds like a lot of good ideas to me...

 

[me & my baby]

This is a really good because I never lost fish till I started QT

 

[Tony Thompson]

Tony. All fish in the sea have immunity to just about everything. Fish in the sea get their immunity from their Mother who is immune. But if a fish (or us) is not exposed to those pathogens for a period of time (that varies with species) we lose that immunity.

Quarantining for 72 days would severely weaken a fishes immunity to a specific pathogen because it is not exposed to it. If that fish then lives in a tank, especially a quarantined tank, it will certainly have no immunity to anything and will succumb to any thing that gets in to that tank. No live foods can be fed to that tank which is a fishes stable in the sea. [/QUOTE]


I agree that some animals, can and do fight of infection. However I must disagree with your explanation of the fishes immune system.

The animals complete immune system is not transferred maternaly. Only part of the immune defence and non specific mechanisms are transfered.

It would be highly implausible for Active Immunity to be affected over a period as short as 72 days. That's why immunization shots are administered periodically as part of a booster system. I fail to understand your reasoning for the immune system to become ineffective simply because it is in quarantine or on medication for parasites.

Different species have varied nutritional requirements. The vast majority of foods can and are offered during quarantine. Good nutrition is a vital part of any quarantine procedure. Frozen foods can be fortified with HUFA and Vitamins.

For the medication of internal infections, it is highly desirable to include the medication in the animals food.

Quarantine is not a method of sterilisation, it is simply a method used to segregate an animal from the DT for a period of time, reducing the chance of cross contamination through bio security and observation. Medications are used in a generally targeted way to fight specific pathogens or parasites. They do not kill all the bacteria in the tank. In many cases quarantine is used to boost the immune system.

 

[DSC reef]

I think it's important for everyone to have an open mind with threads like these. Everyone is passionate about their opinions and there is no reason why we all can't discuss what works for one another. Some QT, some don't, I get it. I like reading everyone's views even if I disagree with a certain method. Keep reefing everyone

 

[chicago]

Kmsutos... my point is simply that the filter may be able to remove one portion of the life cycle. That filter will not serve to cure ICK if you have it in your tank.. Sorry but no google search will say that. I think we are saying the same thing. It will only kill one part of the life cycle to a point. The life cycle will live on. To the newbies here.. it is not a cure to ICK. Ozone is not a cure to ICK. You must use one of the proven methods to QT. Many systems go years and years and decades fine and with ICK. Most tanks out there have it but the fish survive due to good food, clean water ect. We need to be clear for those newbies who are told they do not need to QT.. That in my two cents of an opinion would be very bad advice to say no need to QT. Paul's tank is the rare one not the usual.

 

[chicago]

I think what we are really talking about here is nicely put in this thread.. ick managment vs. ick eradication.. Strongly urge newbies to read this and other threads .

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-eradication-vs-ich-management.188775/

 

[Mortie31]

I think what we are really talking about here is nicely put in this thread.. ick managment vs. ick eradication.. Strongly urge newbies to read this and other threads .

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-eradication-vs-ich-management.188775/

Is this thread just about ICK? Almost all posters are just talking about ICK but isnt the thread more about an holistic approach for the total management of a fishes health? An outsider reading this thread would think fish only suffer from the 1 disease