The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

mshonk · Feb 22, 2019

Paul B said:
Of course it is.

Ha! Let the skeptics continue a stressfull process! I have only been reefing for 10 years and I don't think I have lost a fish due to disease. Tank conditions, yes; abusive tank mates, yes; unfortunately negligence, yes; but not to disease.

REEFIN RIOS · Feb 22, 2019

Finally I don’t feel alone! lol! I actually learned a lot of things I diddnt know. But I don’t qt fish, to me or just seemed like a waste of time and a waste of a tank. I knew there was a good and reasonable reason as to why I didn’t qt!

mshonk · Feb 22, 2019

REEFIN RIOS said:
Finally I don’t feel alone! lol! I actually learned a lot of things I diddnt know. But I don’t qt fish, to me or just seemed like a waste of time and a waste of a tank. I knew there was a good and reasonable reason as to why I didn’t qt!

I just want to say that you can be successful with a qt. I just prefer not to. I feel the risks with that method outweigh the gain. I do usually dip corals. I also inspect before a purchase if I can. ReefBeauties.com is where the fish came from so there was no inspection before purchasing and the prices were phenomenal and the packaging, customer service, and quality were excellent.

REEFIN RIOS · Feb 22, 2019

mshonk said:
I just want to say that you can be successful with a qt. I just prefer not to. I feel the risks with that method outweigh the gain. I do usually dip corals. I also inspect before a purchase if I can. ReefBeauties.com is where the fish came from so there was no inspection before purchasing and the prices were phenomenal and the packaging, customer service, and quality were excellent.

I dip my corals too, and I inspect as well, I don’t buy if it looks week, or doesn’t eat right away a when I feed the tank
They are in. And I have had a QT, but it never worked for me, all my fish died in qt and all my fish i have now are still alive. I get and respect every ones will to do as they plz with there new fish.

Frogger · Feb 22, 2019

REEFIN RIOS said:
t fish, to me or just seemed like a waste of time and a waste of a tank. I knew there was a good and reasonable reason as to why I didn’t qt!

The longterm success of not quarantining fish is the result of well established tanks with immense bio-diversity, healthy fish with built in resistance and a low stress environment.

The Reef2Reef Fish Disease Database gets dozens of new threads daily and hundreds of new posts a day by those that were not as successful at dropping in fish straight from the pet store. Wouldn't be a bad idea to read a few of these.

If you do not know what you are doing it is kind of like playing Russian Roulette.

The local reef form is full of reefers selling their entire setups after a couple of years of not having much success.

REEFIN RIOS · Feb 22, 2019

Frogger said:
The longterm success of not quarantining fish is the result of well established tanks with immense bio-diversity, healthy fish with built in resistance and a low stress environment.

The Reef2Reef Fish Disease Database gets dozens of new threads daily and hundreds of new posts a day by those that were not as successful at dropping in fish straight from the pet store. Wouldn't be a bad idea to read a few of these.

If you do not know what you are doing it is kind of like playing Russian Roulette.

The local reef form is full of reefers selling their entire setups after a couple of years of not having much success.

Ok let me clarify, I tried and failed with Qt that is the main reason why I don’t
Qt my fish, but for most people they don’t like that “excuse” and basically give me crap
For it, now with this article, it gives me even more ideal of not QT ing fish more of a valuable reason. I just thought now I their were other reefers out there who have the same philosophy as me. I was just trying to freely express myself. I don’t want to cause any issue

Frogger · Feb 22, 2019

mshonk said:
I feel the risks with that method outweigh the gain. I do usually dip corals. I also inspect before a purchase if I can.

REEFIN RIOS said:
I dip my corals too, and I inspect as well, I don’t buy if it looks week,

I have found that most of the acropora and montipora that I have purchased from local reefers have some sort of pest on their corals. Most of the time they are not even aware of it.
Just because you don't think you have a problem doesn't mean you don't have a problem, it could take years for the numbers to reach plague proportions. By the time the reefer notices that he has a problem it is way too late to do anything.
Dipping alone is not enough as most dips do not even phase acropora bugs and will not kill all adult flatworms. There is no dip that works on eggs.

Sanjay Joshi has had a heck of a time with AEFW and there is a strong possibility that he knows what he is doing.

Frogger · Feb 22, 2019

REEFIN RIOS said:
Ok let me clarify, I tried and failed with Qt that is the main reason why I don’t
Qt my fish, but for most people they don’t like that “excuse” and basically give me crap

Maybe you need to look at why you have failed at quarantine. To keep Paul happy when I refer to quarantine I refer to isolation in a well established, drug free tank that gives me the opportunity to watch the fish in a low stress non competitive tank for several weeks. Not the 72/76 day fallow period recommended by some.
If you can't keep a fish alive in this environment how is he to survive in a high stress, beat the heck out of me tank.

mshonk · Feb 22, 2019

Frogger said:
I have found that most of the acropora and montipora that I have purchased from local reefers have some sort of pest on their corals. Most of the time they are not even aware of it.
Just because you don't think you have a problem doesn't mean you don't have a problem, it could take years for the numbers to reach plague proportions. By the time the reefer notices that he has a problem it is way too late to do anything.
Dipping alone is not enough as most dips do not even phase acropora bugs and will not kill all adult flatworms. There is no dip that works on eggs.

Sanjay Joshi has had a heck of a time with AEFW and we all know he knows what he is doing.

Plague proportions only exist due to an imbalance in biodiversity. I highly doubt that there is a tank out their that doesnt have a flatworm.

mshonk · Feb 22, 2019

Frogger said:
Maybe you need to look at why you have failed at quarantine. To keep Paul happy when I refer to quarantine I refer to isolation in a well established, drug free tank that gives me the opportunity to watch the fish in a low stress non competitive tank for several weeks. Not the 72/76 day fallow period recommended by some.
If you can't keep a fish alive in this environment how is he to survive in a high stress, beat the s***t out of me tank.

Can you clarify "high stress, beat the heck out of me tank."

Frogger · Feb 22, 2019

mshonk said:
Plague proportions only exist due to an imbalance in biodiversity. I highly doubt that there is a tank out their that doesn't have a flatworm.

Biodiversity helps but unfortunately we are dealing with closed systems and we cannot even begin to approach the biodivesity found on a healthy natural reef.
I am sure there are several hundred Reef2Reef members that would disagree with the first part of this statement when it comes to AEFW. I am sure there is significant closed system biodiversity in Sanjay's tank.

I am pretty sure that AEFW is not in my display tank. Jason Fox would also disagree as he prides himself as AEFW free.

Frogger · Feb 22, 2019

mshonk said:
Can you clarify "high stress, beat the s***t out of me tank."

Do you have any established tangs in your tank? Maybe a 6 lined wrasse or a particularly ornery clownfish?

MnFish1 · Feb 22, 2019

mshonk said:
Plague proportions only exist due to an imbalance in biodiversity. I highly doubt that there is a tank out their that doesnt have a flatworm.

I'm curious - what does your use of the words 'imbalance in biodiversity' mean? If you mean that for example aptasia can outcompete other corals and things because there is no predator in the tank that will eat them (i.e. there are none of the appropriate nudibranchs). If you are somehow saying that its because there isn't enough 'biodiversity' in the sense of other coral, etc I think you're incorrect.

PS there is a difference between having a flatworm and AEFW.

PPS I agree with @Frogger that there is NO WAY to even approach the biodiversity found on the reef.

mshonk · Feb 22, 2019

Frogger said:
Do you have any established tangs in your tank? Maybe a 6 lined wrasse or a particularly ornery clownfish?

I had a tomini tang which was happy and healthy but it is a 40g breeder and it with a six line were too territorial hence restocking and my original post, but introducing a new fish into that type of environment is from a lack of planning, which I was guilty of.

I don't honestly care who is claiming to be AEFW pest free there is absolutely no way anyone can justify that claim. Not stating that it is not true but you cannot prove it.

Frogger said:
I am pretty sure that AEFW is not in my display tank.

"pretty sure". <------ Not certainty. There isn't any missing flesh on any of my acroporas but I will only make the statement of "I do not have any issues with AEFW."

MnFish1 said:
PS there is a difference between having a flatworm and AEFW.

Obviously. Genus I believe versus species but thanks for clarifying.

Other reefers including Sanjay have many things to offer to the less experienced as well as those with experience but to presume that one successful method is "the only right way" is pure ignorance. Another form of ignorance is the presumption that anyone can come close to matching the biodiversity of nature. I did not state this or claim it. I said that an issue is caused by imbalance not lack of all biodiversity. Are we assuming that all habitats should be rolled into one being that we keep numerous animals from various locations of the world in our homes, that is absolutely insane. Do you QT you CUC? Given your methodology I hope so.

Anyway I digress. I wish you the best with your tanks. I will continue to do what works and share my success. I hope you can do the same.

Frogger · Feb 22, 2019

mshonk said:
"pretty sure". <------ Not certainty. There isn't any missing flesh on any of my acroporas but I will only make the statement of "I do not have any issues with AEFW."

You set the bar at an unapproachable level to justify your argument. Do you say to people who say they don't have cancer hey never met anyone that can prove they don't have cancer?

When you were referring to flatworm I was taking it as AEFW as that is what I was talking about when you quoted me.

I am not going to get into my quarantine/treatment method for newly acquired corals.
I regularly take many of the corals in my display tank out of the tank and inspect them with a dissecting scope I have found other things on them but have not found AEFW. After doing this for several years and never having found a AEFW in my display tank I can safely say the tank is AEFW free, the same as I can say "It not a tumar". I have found AEFW in many newly acquired corals and send them back before I introduce them to my quarantine tank, so I know how to find them.

Natural biodiversity didn't much help the chestnuts in eastern US in the early 1900's. It didn't much help the elms from Dutch Elm Disease. It has currently showed no impact on Emerald Ash Borer. It didn't help the elkhorn corals of the Caribbean. Unfortunately this list is endless.

mshonk · Feb 22, 2019

I was going to chime in with emerald ash borer but since you nailed it that is not a closed system so bio diversity can possibly help but there are far to many unaccountable variables in nature to guarantee the success of a counter measure or organism that you would also be able to guarantee the safety of the terrestrial life. I feel that your comparisons to our, as you also noted, closed systems to nature are terrible and unsubstantial. There is no terrestrial life in our tanks, none of that came to be on its own.

Also it is not an unapproachable level. State the fact not a manipulation of the truth. You check your corals but there is rock, sand, etc. I am stating that you may have a thorough method and you may be right in your statement but there isn't any reasonable way to know the truth 100% so the statement of being AEFW free is inconclusive.

Not one thing I said stated that your method is wrong I just don't prefer it. I feel the gains are not there.