The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[William Buchanan]

I would be interested in knowing if any of you DO NOT use a skimmer. I don’t have one yet and I am at that crossroad... yea or nay.
I had entertained the idea of not using one. For some reason I got the impression that they remove a lot of the nutrients that your corals and macros need. You would then have to dose more “stuff”. I don’t know if this is even close to being the case so I am asking. I am guessing most all of you use one.
(I reverse light a macro fuge)

 

[Paul B]

Put on a skimmer. Don't worry about nutrients, the skimmer is more important. It will not remove calcium or alk.

 

[Subsea]

I would be interested in knowing if any of you DO NOT use a skimmer. I don’t have one yet and I am at that crossroad... yea or nay.
I had entertained the idea of not using one. For some reason I got the impression that they remove a lot of the nutrients that your corals and macros need. You would then have to dose more “stuff”. I don’t know if this is even close to being the case so I am asking. I am guessing most all of you use one.
(I reverse light a macro fuge)

William,
I have been skimmerless for 35 years. In my experience, I prefer algae filter on reverse photo cycle. I run display for 14 hours and algae filter for 14 hours. Both lights on together for 2 hours.

 

[mshonk]

I'm curious - what does your use of the words 'imbalance in biodiversity' mean? If you mean that for example aptasia can outcompete other corals and things because there is no predator in the tank that will eat them (i.e. there are none of the appropriate nudibranchs). If you are somehow saying that its because there isn't enough 'biodiversity' in the sense of other coral, etc I think you're incorrect.

I didn't forget about your question.
Imbalance would mean there is a predator or organism left unchecked. Pest would be a subjective term just as a weed in gardening is. Its an undesirable and rather than irradication if something finds its way into the tank since it is a closed system you can then balance or correct it with an organic solution. E.g. your CUC. We use this methodology from the start so to say its incorrect should mean you do not correct issues with tank inhabitants, macro algae, etc.

 

[mshonk]

I have never dipped a coral, am I bad?

I also have about 1,874,621 flatworms that I consider free inverts.
They will disappear when they need to with no damage to anything and supply plenty of food to certain fish that find them tasty appetizers.

Right! Thats what the yellow coris wrasse is for. I have some ostracods that have been annoying some of my zoas. Wondering if the wrasse will pick at them too. I never used to dip but I got nervous [emoji29] when adding sooo much sps to my current tank.

 

[mshonk]

I would be interested in knowing if any of you DO NOT use a skimmer. I don’t have one yet and I am at that crossroad... yea or nay.
I had entertained the idea of not using one. For some reason I got the impression that they remove a lot of the nutrients that your corals and macros need. You would then have to dose more “stuff”. I don’t know if this is even close to being the case so I am asking. I am guessing most all of you use one.
(I reverse light a macro fuge)

I turn mine off for the night when I feed aminos.

 

[mshonk]

I have never dipped a coral, am I bad? :rolleyes

You are bad bad man. [emoji122][emoji3]

 

[HB AL]

Haven’t read the entire thread but I haven’t quarantined a fish in 30+ years, and if I told you how many fish I’ve lost in that time (the #is really low) most would not believe me. My 14 fish are all healthy, I have a fully loaded reef tank 3 triggers a Clown, Sargassum and bluejaw, 2 clowns tomato and gold strip maroon, 4 tangs naso, yellow, purple and hippo, green coris wrasse, some big damsel with yellowish tails, bicolor blenny, squirrel fish and a 3 year old banggai cardinal that’s still alive, hoping he gets to atleast 4 years old. Here’s a pic of my simple, no quarantine successful tank.

 

[Subsea]

“I had entertained the idea of not using one. For some reason I got the impression that they remove a lot of the nutrients that your corals and macros need. You would then have to dose more “stuff”. I don’t know if this is even close to being the case so I am asking. I am guessing most all of you use one.”
(I reverse light a macro fuge)

@William Buchanan

I agree with what you said above.

In a conversation that I had with @Randy Holmes-Farley, he suggested that adding amino acids to a reef tank was unnecessary. Considering that amino acids are produced by bacteria acting on protein. Of the 22 amino acids, 70% are from animals and 30% from algae. From what I have seen, the skimmate of foam fractionators is 95% bacteria. Considering that bacteria move 60% of the carbon in a reef up the food chain to differrent trophic levels, I consider protein skimmers detrimental to natural food webs which is how I manage carbon & amino acids in my reef tank husbandry.

 

[mshonk]

In a conversation thatI had with @Randy Holmes-Farley, he suggested that adding amino acids to a reef tank was unnecessary. Considering that amino acids are produced by bacteria acting on protein. Of the 22 amino acids, 70% are from animals and 30% from algae. From what I have seen, the skimmate of foam fractionators is 95% bacteria. Considering that bacteria move 60% of the carbon in a reef up the food chain to differrent trophic levels, I consider protein skimmers detrimental to natural food webs which is how I manage carbon & amino acids in my reef tank husbandry.

Yeah, this is the first tank I have dosed them. It was more of a lets try this out vs. It will make my corals amazing. And part of the reason I considered it is this is the first tank that I had to add no3 to. Mind you I havent ran a system before this one in about 2 years. Which was a nano with out a skimmer and it ran well for 3 years and before that was about 7 years and that tank did well but the skimmer was old and not nearly as efficient as the one I have now. So I am delicately finding solid ground between what I knew and what makes the tank happy.

 

[Subsea]

Yeah, this is the first tank I have dosed them. It was more of a lets try this out vs. It will make my corals amazing. And part of the reason I considered it is this is the first tank that I had to add no3 to. Mind you I havent ran a system before this one in about 2 years. Which was a nano with out a skimmer and it ran well for 3 years and before that was about 7 years and that tank did well but the skimmer was old and not nearly as efficient as the one I have now. So I am delicately finding solid ground between what I knew and what makes the tank happy.

I like where you are going with your tank. Your biofilter is very mature if your nitrates are low and you feed heavy. Corals can produce all 22 amino acids during lean times but they will grow so much more when they don’t have to use energy to produce amino acids.


As your experience increases, you read bioindicators to determine status of tank. When the visual is pleasing to you, it is time to enjoy the beauty and chill. I often listen to music as I watch the action unfold.

Aquascaping is so fun because it cost no money. As soon as you do it, you can sit back and chill again. I catch myself projecting how something would look with a specific change. I have so many tanks, I can move stuff between tanks. Voila. I have a whole new seascape in two tanks without spending any money.

 

[mshonk]

I like where you are going with your tank. Your biofilter is very mature if your nitrates are low and you feed heavy. Corals can produce all 22 amino acids during lean times but they will grow so much more when they don’t have to use energy to produce amino acids.


As your experience increases, you read bioindicators to determine status of tank. When the visual is pleasing to you, it is time to enjoy the beauty and chill. I often listen to music as I watch the action unfold.

Aquascaping is so fun because it cost no money. As soon as you do it, you can sit back and chill again. I catch myself projecting how something would look with a specific change. I have so many tanks, I can move stuff between tanks. Voila. I have a whole new seascape in two tanks without spending any money.

The biofiltration is what throws me off. I was dosing no3 into the tank around November when the tank was 8 months old. I never had an issue like this before. I haven't had issues with no3 being too high in the past 10 years but it was always present. Usually a year + would be where I would see the no3 lower but not deplete. Not 4 months early. I had issues with brown outs and bleaching in my sps in September -October. So I needed to feed more. In the past I would feed once a day sometimes twice if there was anything like a wrasse or anthias and spot feed coral 1 time a week with brine or mysis. As for feeding heavy now twice a day everyday for fish and every other day with the AF amino and energy but the reef roids are almost being fed daily. Usually 5 days a week but sometimes 4 days a week varying on appearance of the coral and filamentous algae and I target feed but easily 2 -3 times the recommended amount.

My tank is in my home office and I do just the same, throw on some music and watch it unfold. The recent success I had coloring up my sps and triggering their growth has been incredibly rewarding. My garf bonsai was browned out terribly. The tips were slightly purple. Now it still is a frag but is a more saturated and vibrant purple than any garf I have seen.

 

[Subsea]

@mshonk

Sounds like you are in the groove. Reefing is easy when you get there.

 

[Subsea]

@msho
Sounds like you are in the groove. Reefing is easy when you get there.

 

[Subsea]

@mshonk
Sounds like you are in the groove. Reefing is easy when you get there.

 

[Frogger]

I have never dipped a coral, am I bad?

It does not appear that you are keeping acropora, in my experience the pests with most of the other corals can be maintained through bio-diversity and natural competition. Zoa nudibranch can be bad however wrasses can often keep their numbers in check.
My monitpora have the dreaded nudibranch but my melanarus wrasse keeps the numbers manageable. Not a big fan of montipora anyway, I wouldn't ever sell or give away my monitpora, if it gets too big I just break it off and throw it away.

 

[MnFish1]

Obviously. Genus I believe versus species but thanks for clarifying.

I apologize - I made a somewhat snarky comment in response to this - I misread what you wrote - I thought you said 'Obviously, genius' not Genus. The moderators deleted that post - but I wanted to explain it to you either way. I always try to be respectful - but am not always successful.

I feel that your comparisons to our, as you also noted, closed systems to nature are terrible and unsubstantial. There is no terrestrial life in our tanks, none of that came to be on its own.

Also it is not an unapproachable level. State the fact not a manipulation of the truth. You check your corals but there is rock, sand, etc. I am stating that you may have a thorough method and you may be right in your statement but there isn't any reasonable way to know the truth 100% so the statement of being AEFW free is inconclusive.

Can you clarify what you mean here -I actually think the comparisons are fitting. By the way - I agree that a non-chemical / organic / natural way is probably 'better' than all of the chemicals that people tend to use. But I do not think that lack of biodiversity (or adding 'biodiversity') will cure/eliminate AEFW. I also don't dip corals - and have not seen AEFW in my tank.

Other reefers including Sanjay have many things to offer to the less experienced as well as those with experience but to presume that one successful method is "the only right way" is pure ignorance.

I agree - and no one here has said that there is one successful method (that I have read). Instead - what I have read is people saying things like it is hard to mimic what @Paul B has done without losing a lot of livestock along the way - and that the best way to avoid that is at least observation before adding things into a tank.

I did not state this or claim it. I said that an issue is caused by imbalance not lack of all biodiversity. Are we assuming that all habitats should be rolled into one being that we keep numerous animals from various locations of the world in our homes, that is absolutely insane. Do you QT you CUC? Given your methodology I hope so.

I am not sure why you addressed this to me - but to answer you - I dont QT my CUC, I dont QT my fish or corals either. So I'm not sure what you mean by 'my methodology'. I think much of the talk about biodiversity is frankly wrong. I have no way to 'prove' my opinion either. But - FWIW - my opinion is that in our tanks we start with rocks, we add fish, maybe coral, some crabs, etc. In the beginning of setting up a tank people tend to 'lose' things ie they dont survive (as one gains more experience ie @Lasse, @Paul B, etc this may be less). (There is a reason that companies that sell CUC email every 6 months or so asking whether its time to replenish the CUC). Over time - the tank stabalizes. The fish that survive tend to get along and dont fight (The ones that got stressed out and died at first - are forgotten). The coral frags that survive and grow have the correct light and aren't being stung by their neighbors (the ones that did not died and are forgotten). What ends up happening (in most tanks IMHO only) is that the things that end up surviving/thriving have developed a certain symbiosis - and that as a tank 'matures' biodiversity actually decreases rather than increases. Thats not to say that new things can't be added, etc - and in some sense adding new coral to an established tank is probably somewhat easier than to a tank a week old.

 

[MnFish1]

I didn't forget about your question.
Imbalance would mean there is a predator or organism left unchecked. Pest would be a subjective term just as a weed in gardening is. Its an undesirable and rather than irradication if something finds its way into the tank since it is a closed system you can then balance or correct it with an organic solution. E.g. your CUC. We use this methodology from the start so to say its incorrect should mean you do not correct issues with tank inhabitants, macro algae, etc.

The issue I would raise with this theory is the following: Often adding something organic to 'take care' of a problem (like my example of adding berghia nudibranch to kill aptasia) often results in the death of the 'organic solution' (ie in this case the nudibranch) once the problem is fixed (i.e. the food source has run out). So in the attempt to add 'biodiversity' we have killed both the aptasia and the nudibranch. I don't want to get into a specific debate about aptasia or nudibranchs - but the same thing happens when you add a CUC - once they have 'done their job' they die off.

This relates to the difference between our 'closed system' vs the reef itself. On the reef, the nudibranch will move on to the next aptasia. In our tanks - once its gone - they die.

 

[Lasse]

But with normal CUC (non specialised) we grow algae all the time as food for them.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[mshonk]

The issue I would raise with this theory is the following: Often adding something organic to 'take care' of a problem (like my example of adding berghia nudibranch to kill aptasia) often results in the death of the 'organic solution' (ie in this case the nudibranch) once the problem is fixed (i.e. the food source has run out). So in the attempt to add 'biodiversity' we have killed both the aptasia and the nudibranch. I don't want to get into a specific debate about aptasia or nudibranchs - but the same thing happens when you add a CUC - once they have 'done their job' they die off.

This relates to the difference between our 'closed system' vs the reef itself. On the reef, the nudibranch will move on to the next aptasia. In our tanks - once its gone - they die.

I am happy you are coming around. This isn't an issue, it is a variable that must be considered in any possible solution. No one wants anything to die in their tank when they have added it.This is why I said an imbalance in biodiversity.