The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[Subsea]

Yes, dissolved oxygen supersaturation can occur when surf is really up - there were many days when I lived in Hawaii where the ocean appeared to be filled with milk, due to microbubbles. In high light algal growths could drive O2 way up in some of the anchailine ponds (saturation at that salinity and temperature was around 7 ppm, but supersaturation was seen at ~16 ppm). I've got a Hach HQ40d data logger with a luminescence dissolved oxygen probe. It's just sitting there. I'll put it on a tank and record readings when I get back in town Sunday. Oxygen content of course depends upon many factors (temp, pressure, salinity) but boils down to oxygen demand and oxygen transfer rates.

From this discussion on BOD and oxygen saturation in our reef tanks, I see big advantages to using peroxide to energize oxidation chemistry in our reefs tanks. I have used peroxide for many years to sanitize algae & inverts in 10% bath for 10 minutes.

I get mixed results with sanitizing snails from cyno or Red Planaria tanks.

@Paul B
After 2 weeks operation, I am harvesting Green Grapes from “zooplankton generator”.

 

[Lasse]

Yes, dissolved oxygen supersaturation can occur when surf is really up - there were many days when I lived in Hawaii where the ocean appeared to be filled with milk, due to microbubbles. In high light algal growths could drive O2 way up in some of the anchailine ponds (saturation at that salinity and temperature was around 7 ppm, but supersaturation was seen at ~16 ppm). I've got a Hach HQ40d data logger with a luminescence dissolved oxygen probe. It's just sitting there. I'll put it on a tank and record readings when I get back in town Sunday. Oxygen content of course depends upon many factors (temp, pressure, salinity) but boils down to oxygen demand and oxygen transfer rates.

Yes - do that. If you can log the oxygen for a couple of days, it could be very interesting. Can you do it in a tank with a skimmer and one without? Or one fish only and in one with lot of photosynthetic organisms?


Sincerely Lasse

 

[Subsea]

It is but I have the same thinking as @atoll.

There is a health issue too because ozone is highly toxic and we that lives in cities may breathe too much ozone already. The problem with ozone is that we have to much of it down here – but too less high up in the stratosphere

Sincerely Lasse

From my perspective, I see ozone used to oxidize waste. It is indiscriminate and in that respect similar to UV Sterilization.

I see peroxide as the energizer bunny. In a reef tank, I see little need for reduction chemistry. I see great need for oxidation chemistry. Oxygen is the fuel for recycling nutrients up the food chain thru various trophic levels using bacteria & algae as the janitors that turn inorganic nutrients into organic biomass.

 

[Paul B]

Sub, That is amazing. I could make wine from that. I am in awe. I wish mine did that. I make sludge.

 

[Subsea]

Yes, dissolved oxygen supersaturation can occur when surf is really up - there were many days when I lived in Hawaii where the ocean appeared to be filled with milk, due to microbubbles. In high light algal growths could drive O2 way up in some of the anchailine ponds (saturation at that salinity and temperature was around 7 ppm, but supersaturation was seen at ~16 ppm). I've got a Hach HQ40d data logger with a luminescence dissolved oxygen probe. It's just sitting there. I'll put it on a tank and record readings when I get back in town Sunday. Oxygen content of course depends upon many factors (temp, pressure, salinity) but boils down to oxygen demand and oxygen transfer rates.

@Dana Riddle @Lasse @Scrubber_steve @Randy Holmes-Farley @Paul B

When BRS TV pushed their algae filter with 1750 PAR, they used pH of 9 as inverse proof that carbon dioxide was used up during photosynthesis. This is another corellation of supersaturation of oxygen and is the reason for their stellar resuls with SPS dominate tank using algae filtration on steroids.

I am a firm believer in algae filtration. Triton Methodhas put the micro scope on the science. I view it in the macro scope. As a Master Gardner, I work with nature to understand what works best in the ecosystem which we cherish and call our reef tank.

Dana,
Didn’t you retire from munincipal water treatment on the Big Island. If I remember correctly, you were mentor for a high school group that grew coral using algae filtration and natural sunlight. How did you deal with heat gain during hottest part of summer? Did you use Red Ogo and practice nutrient recycling by feeding the fish or did you practice nutrient export and sell for local human consumption.

I presently have a 30’ by 40’ greenhouse that I plan to grow editable seaweed and editable Pacific Shrimp. I currently operate a Outdoor pilot system as 900G split system with 150G Rubbermaid tubs of which only three are operational during the winter as they are countersunk in the ground. The seaweed & zooplankton from this system goes to a LFS in Austin where I get $50 per pound. I plan to step up production in greenhouse after completing major modifications.

HOB Refugium is connected to 120G display tank which is full of Red Planaria. Low light picture does not show it, but when lights come on, the flat worms come out in force.

 

[Subsea]

Sub, That is amazing. I could make wine from that. I am in awe. I wish mine did that. I make sludge.

Paul,
As a waste water plant manager, the beneficial reuse of sewage sludge from bacteria biomass was at the heart of biofiltration. We dryed out the dead bacteria shells in a process to significantly reduce pathogens and spread them on cattle grasslands. The wording “significantly reduce” is the language used for 100 years in the CFR, Code of Federal Regulations. The wisdom of “significant reduce” recognizes two things: bad bacteria are more difficult to kill than good bacteria and most importantly, bacteria are necessary. We know so much more about bacteria & enzymes today.

Remember to drink your pickle juice every morning for alkalinity bufferring and add one tablespoon of peroxide to that cocktail to clean out the anaerobic sludge that accumulates without oxygen & excercise.‍‍‍

 

[Mortie31]

My understanding is that reefs are nearly always running at 100% oxygen saturation and can exceed 100% saturation on certain parts where waves crash in for instance. Perhaps somebody could confirm this.
With regards to home aquarium depending on lots of factors like stocking levels we are unlikely to achieve reef levels of O2. I have also read that skimmers on their own won't give you 100% O2 saturation, again I don't know how true that is but it may depend on the skimmer employed.

I did some messing around measuring DO in my tank with different potential ways it could be increased, by far the best way I found was by dropping the water level in my overflow and creating a waterfall of 18” and the associated crashing and turbulence of the water, incidentally I also found that a powerhead that didn’t directly cause surface agitation did not increase DO at all, this was relevant for me as I had my mp40 (which was positioned at half tank height) on a battery backup, I now have my surface powerheads on battery backup.

 

[Subsea]

I did some messing around measuring DO in my tank with different potential ways it could be increased, by far the best way I found was by dropping the water level in my overflow and creating a waterfall of 18” and the associated crashing and turbulence of the water, incidentally I also found that a powerhead that didn’t directly cause surface agitation did not increase DO at all, this was relevant for me as I had my mp40 (which was positioned at half tank height) on a battery backup, I now have my surface powerheads on battery backup.

Tell me more about your oxygen monitoring. Where are probes located? Is your probe & meter portable, thus allowing to monitor different locations, like before & after a waterfall.

I like the way you think with respect to using passive techniques that require zero energy input to maximize gas exchange.

 

[Mortie31]

Tell me more about your oxygen monitoring. Where are probes located? Is your probe & meter portable, thus allowing to monitor different locations, like before & after a waterfall.

I like the way you think with respect to using passive techniques that require zero energy input to maximize gas exchange.

I have a single probe, i can place it in different parts if the tank/sump, but it’s limited by the length of wire to my ghl p4. When I was trying to various scenarios I left the probe in its holder in my sump, to give a modicum of a baseline to compare results. The one downside of the waterfall is the noise, it was dreadfully loud and not at all practical for a house..

 

[Frogger]

I also found that a powerhead that didn’t directly cause surface agitation did not increase DO at all, this was relevant for me as I had my mp40 (which was positioned at half tank height) on a battery backup, I now have my surface powerheads on battery backup.

There are too many variables that need to be considered before it can be determined that your MP40 would have no benefit during a power outage.

• Did you do this test during the daylight hours or at night after all the pumps had been off for a while?
• Did you do this test with other pumps running?
• Did you do this test with other pumps not running for many hours?

If your tests were done during daylight hours they could have been hindered by the natural production of O2 from the daylight process of photosynthesis that produces O2. What would be interesting to see if running a power head at night when respiration is high and no O2 is being produced by photosynthesis versus a tank with no water movement at all.

The other thing the MP40 could prevent dangerous dead spots during a power outage.

I really can't believe that some water movement is no better than no water movement in this situation.

 

[Subsea]

There are too many variables that need to be considered before it can be determined that your MP40 would have no benefit during a power outage.

• Did you do this test during the daylight hours or at night after all the pumps had been off for a while?
• Did you do this test with other pumps running?
• Did you do this test with other pumps not running for many hours?

If your tests were done during daylight hours they could have been hindered by the natural production of O2 from the daylight process of photosynthesis that produces O2. What would be interesting to see if running a power head at night when respiration is high and no O2 is being produced by photosynthesis versus a tank with no water movement at all.

The other thing the MP40 could prevent dangerous dead spots during a power outage.

I really can't believe that some water movement is no better than no water movement in this situation.

Water movement at the surface (water air interface) helps gas exchange. In the water depth, circulation allows nutrient exchange at the boundary layer of water to biomass. Slightly differrent.

 

[MnFish1]

There are too many variables that need to be considered before it can be determined that your MP40 would have no benefit during a power outage.

• Did you do this test during the daylight hours or at night after all the pumps had been off for a while?
• Did you do this test with other pumps running?
• Did you do this test with other pumps not running for many hours?

If your tests were done during daylight hours they could have been hindered by the natural production of O2 from the daylight process of photosynthesis that produces O2. What would be interesting to see if running a power head at night when respiration is high and no O2 is being produced by photosynthesis versus a tank with no water movement at all.

The other thing the MP40 could prevent dangerous dead spots during a power outage.

I really can't believe that some water movement is no better than no water movement in this situation.

To me its unclear 'what he did' - did he turn off all pumps and measure DO then put a pump on the surface (only) and measure DO - and the put a pump deeper in the tank and measure DO and compare the 3 values?

I read this as he changed to using the surface agitation for a power outage - so hopefully other pumps were turned off. Additionally - were the lights on or off? Lastly - what were the actual 'values of DO'. If all of them here near 100 percent saturation - there is no difference (or am I missing something?)

 

[MnFish1]

Water movement at the surface (water air interface) helps gas exchange. In the water depth, circulation allows nutrient exchange at the boundary layer of water to biomass. Slightly differrent.

I kind of disagree with this. depending on the depth of the tank. For example - if you have a gyre at the surface of the water on one side of the tank - and the water flows across and hits the other side - it will then flow down the side of the tank - and be circulated in that manner. On the other hand if you put the Gyre on the bottom of the tank - it will still take unoxygenated water and force it UP the other side of the tank. accross the top of the tank and back to the bottom.

The MP40 may be different - And I think you're generally right - at least in my tank - I like flow across the top of the water. To me the key question is - are O2 saturations >100 percent helpful? or Neutral?

 

[Mortie31]

There are too many variables that need to be considered before it can be determined that your MP40 would have no benefit during a power outage.

• Did you do this test during the daylight hours or at night after all the pumps had been off for a while?
• Did you do this test with other pumps running?
• Did you do this test with other pumps not running for many hours?

If your tests were done during daylight hours they could have been hindered by the natural production of O2 from the daylight process of photosynthesis that produces O2. What would be interesting to see if running a power head at night when respiration is high and no O2 is being produced by photosynthesis versus a tank with no water movement at all.

The other thing the MP40 could prevent dangerous dead spots during a power outage.

I really can't believe that some water movement is no better than no water movement in this situation.

Your right there are lots of variables and I don’t claim to have all the answers or that my findings are difinitive, what I was trying to do was measure what might happen during a powercut, and with all pumps off and my MP40 on battery back up I saw DO levels drop, with a surface powerhead I didn’t see the same drop, both tested during daylight.. it was enough to make me rethink my battery back up powerhead strategy. I didn’t see the point testing at night or other times as I can’t choose when a powercut will strike. I didn’t do a baseline test with no circulation as that wasn’t what I was testing at the time, maybe the MP40 at mid tank depth is better than nothing but it wasn’t anywhere near as good as one at the surface in the very limited amateur tests I did. I did these tests on my reef tank so sorry but there was no way I was going to leave compromised for a long period of time.

 

[MnFish1]

Your right there are lots of variables and I don’t claim to have all the answers or that my findings are difinitive, what I was trying to do was measure what might happen during a powercut, and with all pumps off and my MP40 on battery back up I saw DO levels drop, with a surface powerhead I didn’t see the same drop, both tested during daylight.. it was enough to make me rethink my battery back up powerhead strategy. I didn’t see the point testing at night or other times as I can’t choose when a powercut will strike. I didn’t do a baseline test with no circulation as that wasn’t what I was testing at the time, maybe the MP40 at mid tank depth is better than nothing but it wasn’t anywhere near as good as one at the surface in the very limited amateur tests I did. I did these tests on my reef tank so sorry but there was no way I was going to leave compromised for a long period of time.

This makes sense - What were the values - i.e. how much does it 'drop'. Where were you testing the 'DO' - location wise in the tank. If you were testing it 'high up' it makes sense that it would be higher with the pump higher
If you were testing it at the bottom you might have gotten different results. But - the key to me - is 'how much of a drop is there'.

 

[Mortie31]

To me its unclear 'what he did' - did he turn off all pumps and measure DO then put a pump on the surface (only) and measure DO - and the put a pump deeper in the tank and measure DO and compare the 3 values?

I read this as he changed to using the surface agitation for a power outage - so hopefully other pumps were turned off. Additionally - were the lights on or off? Lastly - what were the actual 'values of DO'. If all of them here near 100 percent saturation - there is no difference (or am I missing something?)

Hopefully the answer I’ve just posted clears things up, the lights were on for all tests I did, bear in mind these were tests done by an amateur on my own aquarium using hobby grade equipment (GHL P4 with a GHL O2 sensor) which is why I said they changed my mind, I’m not trying to change anybody else’s, the only reason I posted was as Dana was discussing BOD etc

 

[Mortie31]

This makes sense - What were the values - i.e. how much does it 'drop'. Where were you testing the 'DO' - location wise in the tank. If you were testing it 'high up' it makes sense that it would be higher with the pump higher
If you were testing it at the bottom you might have gotten different results. But - the key to me - is 'how much of a drop is there'.

If memory serves me right I saw a drop of 0.5kg/l in about 30mins to about 7mg/l or so with the MP40 on battery and no drop with a surface Maxspect Gyre which runs at full power off a UPS whereas the vortech runs at reduced levels on battery. So there are lots of things to skew this... the depth of the probe was only a few inches as I didn’t want to submerge the top of it. I was simply messing around with a “new toy” not conducting scientific experiments. When I get time I’ll repeat them and keep notes this time.

 

[MnFish1]

If memory serves me right I saw a drop of 0.5kg/l in about 30mins to about 7mg/l or so with the MP40 on battery and no drop with a surface Maxspect Gyre which runs at full power off a UPS whereas the vortech runs at reduced levels on battery. So there are lots of things to skew this... the depth of the probe was only a few inches as I didn’t want to submerge the top of it. I was simply messing around with a “new toy” not conducting scientific experiments. When I get time I’ll repeat them and keep notes this time.

Thanks. I wasn't trying to criticize you - just clear up what you meant. Thanks

 

[Mortie31]

Thanks. I wasn't trying to criticize you - just clear up what you meant. Thanks

It’s fine, always pays to clear things up, better people know the limitations and form there own opinions and maybe test as well so we get more data

 

[Paul B]

I know my limitations and can say I am lost on most of the last few pages of this quarantine, no quarantine, oxydator, ozone, Viet Nam, Jeep, LED,
algae scrubber, Maxspect Gyre , MP40, ghl p4, Things are. (I really have no idea what those last three things are and am glad I don't need them)