The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[atoll]

Well the “W” came today! [emoji106]

I put 9% and 2 catalyst. The chart on the box recommended 12% and 2 but I’m going to ease into it. It had a pretty good stream of “smoke” trailing out of it for a few hours but I can’t see anything coming out now.
It has it’s own stall in the barn now.

You won't see streams of bubbles all the time, it's self regulating. The chart for peroxide as I recall is base on a pond not an aquarium at least not a marine aquarium unless they have changed it. You may be able to move to 12% however.

 

[atoll]

Well the “W” came today! [emoji106]

I put 9% and 2 catalyst. The chart on the box recommended 12% and 2 but I’m going to ease into it. It had a pretty good stream of “smoke” trailing out of it for a few hours but I can’t see anything coming out now.
It has it’s own stall in the barn now.

I think the recommendations are for ponds with the W model. You should be fine however to move up to 12% peroxide.

 

[atoll]

I think the recommendations are for ponds with the W model. You should be fine however to move up to 12% peroxide.

Remember what I said however watch nems especially for the first hour but all should be well.

 

[Subsea]

Sub, You have a produce stand there. My algae from my scrubber looks more like a pile of sludge and peanut butter.

When I talked with Dr. Samocha, the biggest thermometer, he challenged me to approach his production density of 10 kg per cubic meter: 22 lbs per 27 cubic feet equals

@atoll

I used peroxide to treat a 20KG above ground pool at my home. It worked very well and felt much better than bathing in chlorine. It was twice as expensive to treat with peroxide.

I am weak on electro chemistry so I may use non technical language. Oxygen is not stable with an extra electron ring which means it is reactive and wants to go to a lower energy level. Energy in a reef can be transferred both electrically or chemically. Photosynthesis transfers light energy into glucose which is carbon for the reef. In my experience, I favor oxidation chemistry in my reef tank. Considering the great oxygen demand of bacteria, algae & fish, anything that brings in pure oxygen without increasing carbon dioxide is a powerful oxygen management style that would favor a high alkalinity demand SPS tank. Kudos to the Germans.

Why isn’t ozone another oxygen management tool?
@Lasse @atoll @Paul B @Scrubber_steve @Dana Riddle

 

[atoll]

When I talked with Dr. Samocha, the biggest thermometer, he challenged me to approach his production density of 10 kg per cubic meter: 22 lbs per 27 cubic feet equals

@atoll

I used peroxide to treat a 20KG above ground pool at my home. It worked very well and felt much better than bathing in chlorine. It was twice as expensive to treat with peroxide.

I am weak on electro chemistry so I may use non technical language. Oxygen is not stable with an extra electron ring which means it is reactive and wants to go to a lower energy level. Energy in a reef can be transferred both electrically or chemically. Photosynthesis transfers light energy into glucose which is carbon for the reef. In my experience, I favor oxidation chemistry in my reef tank. Considering the great oxygen demand of bacteria, algae & fish, anything that brings in pure oxygen without increasing carbon dioxide is a powerful oxygen management style that would favor a high alkalinity demand SPS tank. Kudos to the Germans.

Why isn’t ozone another oxygen management tool?
@Lasse @atoll @Paul B @Scrubber_steve @Dana Riddle

I was under the impression ozone is another oxygen managment tool. Maybe I misunderstand you for raising the question. I have always consider my use of Oxydator's and their affect very similar to the use of ozone but without the hassle of electricity controllers and probes. When I discovered Oxydstors all those years ago I was using a Sander ozoniser. Back in the day they were unreliable pieces of equipment. When I began using Oxydator's I notice the same results as using ozone. Both are oxydators ( in the true sense of the word) increase redox and remove yellowing of the water among other things.
Back in the day in fact not so long ago I was ridiculed for my posts and views about the use of Oxydator's (the items) on 2 particular forums one USA based anothet UK based. I was more or less alone in using them in my reefs. The common question being "if they are so good as I say why aren't we all using them" of course I replied "good question and I can't really answer that" Well I did attempt too but was just subjected to further ridicule. Some people did indeed try them, some came to the same conclusions as me and a small number of others said they saw no difference. Others wanted proof in a more scientific way knowing,I like most on here, am just a simple marine aquarist with many years of keeping a reef. I have to say the members on here have mainly shown great interested when I brought the subject of Oxydator's to this group and many have reported benefits in using them. I don't sell them I am just a great believer in them so I spread the word.
Having said all that I am not against ozone and it's use but I have used both and to me the advantages of Oxydator outweigh ozonisers.

 

[Lasse]

Why isn’t ozone another oxygen management tool?

It is but I have the same thinking as @atoll.

There is a health issue too because ozone is highly toxic and we that lives in cities may breathe too much ozone already. The problem with ozone is that we have to much of it down here – but too less high up in the stratosphere

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Paul B]

Ozone in a properly designed skimmer (like mine) or an oversized skimmer will not release any free ozone. I have never smelled Ozone in all the years I use it.
I also use no controller, carbon or anything else. It uses almost no electricity and there is no maintenance, no adding chemicals, nothing. You turn it on and go out to dinner. 15 years later, it dies and you buy another one.

It does what we pay it to do and gets used up in the skimmer never to be seen again.

 

[Dana Riddle]

When I talked with Dr. Samocha, the biggest thermometer, he challenged me to approach his production density of 10 kg per cubic meter: 22 lbs per 27 cubic feet equals

@atoll

I used peroxide to treat a 20KG above ground pool at my home. It worked very well and felt much better than bathing in chlorine. It was twice as expensive to treat with peroxide.

I am weak on electro chemistry so I may use non technical language. Oxygen is not stable with an extra electron ring which means it is reactive and wants to go to a lower energy level. Energy in a reef can be transferred both electrically or chemically. Photosynthesis transfers light energy into glucose which is carbon for the reef. In my experience, I favor oxidation chemistry in my reef tank. Considering the great oxygen demand of bacteria, algae & fish, anything that brings in pure oxygen without increasing carbon dioxide is a powerful oxygen management style that would favor a high alkalinity demand SPS tank. Kudos to the Germans.

Why isn’t ozone another oxygen management tool?
@Lasse @atoll @Paul B @Scrubber_steve @Dana Riddle

I'm a little hesitant to reply, since I feel I'm preaching to the choir, but here goes any way. Ozone will, of course, destroy organics which in turn lessens the biochemical oxygen demand and has the potential to increase dissolved oxygen. The issue, I think, is that the biochemical oxygen demand (BOD), in all the aquaria from which I sampled and tested, is exceeding low. The test involves incubation of a sample in darkness for 5 days at 20 C. In order for the result to be considered valid, a drop in the dissolved oxygen concentration should be at least 2 ppm. I have never seen that happen - the most I've seen (this from a failing memory) was about 0.2 to 0.3 ppm. These tests were done in a certified wet lab using about $4,000 worth of equipment.

 

[Mortie31]

I'm a little hesitant to reply, since I feel I'm preaching to the choir, but here goes any way. Ozone will, of course, destroy organics which in turn lessens the biochemical oxygen demand and has the potential to increase dissolved oxygen. The issue, I think, is that the biochemical oxygen demand (BOD), in all the aquaria from which I sampled and tested, is exceeding low. The test involves incubation of a sample in darkness for 5 days at 20 C. In order for the result to be considered valid, a drop in the dissolved oxygen concentration should be at least 2 ppm. I have never seen that happen - the most I've seen (this from a failing memory) was about 0.2 to 0.3 ppm. These tests were done in a certified wet lab using about $4,000 worth of equipment.

Thanks for this @Dana Riddle, could you please explain the difference in the drop in DO due to BOD you measured above and the 24 hr swings I get in DO in the graph below. What would be driving this swing? (The axis labels are a factor of 10 out should read 8.0mg/l not 80..)

 

[atoll]

Ozone in a properly designed skimmer (like mine) or an oversized skimmer will not release any free ozone. I have never smelled Ozone in all the years I use it.
I also use no controller, carbon or anything else. It uses almost no electricity and there is no maintenance, no adding chemicals, nothing. You turn it on and go out to dinner. 15 years later, it dies and you buy another one.

It does what we pay it to do and gets used up in the skimmer never to be seen again.

Those early sander ozonisers could be a nightmare as they didn't like moist air never mind moist salt air. I agree with the no need to use a controller, I tried both with and without a redox controller and decided to use it wirhout. What we did was put it through the skimmer until we could smell excess ozone then back it off a touch. That was it set, but if you read a lot of posts about ozonisers you will often read of the need to use a redox controller with it. That to me is more uneccessary equipment to fail and cause issues. However my Oxydator's run without the need not just for a controller or redox probe but no electrical connection what so ever. They also last forever unless you drop it. [emoji6]

 

[Dana Riddle]

Thanks for this @Dana Riddle, could you please explain the difference in the drop in DO due to BOD you measured above and the 24 hr swings I get in DO in the graph below. What would be driving this swing? (The axis labels are a factor of 10 out should read 8.0mg/l not 80..)

If I'm reading the chart right, your minimum dissolved oxygen(DO) is 7.6 and maximum is 8.18 ppm. I need a little more information - what is the salinity and temperature of the water - it appears that if this is a tropical reef tank, the water is supersaturated. DO supersaturation is most often due to photosynthesis but pressure can also cause it (doubtful in aquaria.) When do the lights come on and go off? Are you using ozone? Is reverse daylight photosynthesis used? When are the fish fed? Lots to consider...

 

[Mortie31]

If I'm reading the chart right, your minimum dissolved oxygen(DO) is 7.6 and maximum is 8.18 ppm. I need a little more information - what is the salinity and temperature of the water - it appears that if this is a tropical reef tank, the water is supersaturated. DO supersaturation is most often due to photosynthesis but pressure can also cause it (doubtful in aquaria.) When do the lights come on and go off? Are you using ozone? Is reverse daylight photosynthesis used? When are the fish fed? Lots to consider...

Current values are; Temp is 25.6C, salinity is 1.026, ph 8.18 DO is 7.9mg/l. I use an oxydator like a few posting on this thread, and I do reverse light an algae bed, tank lights are from 12:30to 24:00 with a ramp up and down peak is from 17:00 to 20:00 and I feed fish 3-4 times a day. The reason I asked the question is I get a very regular daily DO swing which is far higher than the levels you mentioned for BOD, and I don’t know the science behind this and was wondering why. Thanks for taking the time.

 

[Dana Riddle]

Current values are; Temp is 25.6C, salinity is 1.026, ph 8.18 DO is 7.9mg/l. I use an oxydator like a few posting on this thread, and I do reverse light an algae bed, tank lights are from 12:30to 24:00 with a ramp up and down peak is from 17:00 to 20:00 and I feed fish 3-4 times a day. The reason I asked the question is I get a very regular daily DO swing which is far higher than the levels you mentioned for BOD, and I don’t know the science behind this and was wondering why. Thanks for taking the time.

The BOD test is performed under standardized conditions and in darkness to prevent the impact of photosynthesis, far different than dynamic conditions seen in an aquarium. A DO swing of ~0.6 ppm seen in your tank isn't unusual. Consider that I measured DOs as high as 16 ppm (!) in some of the anchialine ponds in Hawaii.

 

[Lasse]

Thanks for this @Dana Riddle, could you please explain the difference in the drop in DO due to BOD you measured above and the 24 hr swings I get in DO in the graph below. What would be driving this swing? (The axis labels are a factor of 10 out should read 8.0mg/l not 80..)

For me it looks like the daily change between net consumption and net production of oxygen. Consumption by cell metabolism and production through photosynthesis.

@Dana Riddle I think that’s it is difficult to get a picture of a whole tank systems demand of oxygen only using the BOD content of the water. If you test BOD in the water - you only test the microbial activity in the water – and it is normal very low in our aquaria. Most microbial consumption of oxygen does not take place in the free water – it takes place inthe sand, rocks and so on. It is also a high demand of oxygen by every higher organism’s metabolism. I have been out for oxygen depletion in at least one tank during night time. It was a tank – totally covered by softies of different types and without a skimmer.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Scott Campbell]

The BOD test is performed under standardized conditions and in darkness to prevent the impact of photosynthesis, far different than dynamic conditions seen in an aquarium. A DO swing of ~0.6 ppm seen in your tank isn't unusual. Consider that I measured DOs as high as 16 ppm (!) in some of the anchialine ponds in Hawaii.

Are you saying oxidators and ozone are not that "helpful" (with "helpful" being a relative term) since the BOD of a normal aquarium does not create a situation where extra oxidation is needed? Or am I mis-understanding? That would be pretty cool to know since I always assumed oxygen demand was something to be concerned with.

 

[Dana Riddle]

For me it looks like the daily change between net consumption and net production of oxygen. Consumption by cell metabolism and production through photosynthesis.

@Dana Riddle I think that’s it is difficult to get a picture of a whole tank systems demand of oxygen only using the BOD content of the water. If you test BOD in the water - you only test the microbial activity in the water – and it is normal very low in our aquaria. Most microbial consumption of oxygen does not take place in the free water – it takes place inthe sand, rocks and so on. It is also a high demand of oxygen by every higher organism’s metabolism. I have been out for oxygen depletion in at least one tank during night time. It was a tank – totally covered by softies of different types and without a skimmer.

Sincerely Lasse

Yes, I agree and respect your wastewater experience! I tested water for BOD because it was an unknown to me, and wondered if the organic loading in an aquarium was high enough to cause a high oxygen demand. As it turned out, BOD was very low and I haven't tested for it in many years - just see no need to.

 

[Dana Riddle]

Are you saying oxidators and ozone are not that "helpful" (with "helpful" being a relative term) since the BOD of a normal aquarium does not create a situation where extra oxidation is needed? Or am I mis-understanding? That would be pretty cool to know since I always assumed oxygen demand was something to be concerned with.

Bruce Carlson wrote a paper on his experiences at the Waikiki Aquarium, and found a tank using ozone was extraordinarily 'clean' (very low nutrients.) So, the oxygen demand is just part of the picture. And as Lasse mentioned, oxygen demand of a live sand bed will be much greater than the organic load found in the water column.

 

[Paul B]

That would be pretty cool to know since I always assumed oxygen demand was something to be concerned with.

Exceeding oxygen levels would be difficult in a tank that is not overcrowded and there is nothing big dead. A normal, healthy, functioning home reef tank should never experience this problem. It could, and does happen in stores and wholesalers, but not normally in homes so it is for the most part of little concern.

 

[atoll]

My understanding is that reefs are nearly always running at 100% oxygen saturation and can exceed 100% saturation on certain parts where waves crash in for instance. Perhaps somebody could confirm this.
With regards to home aquarium depending on lots of factors like stocking levels we are unlikely to achieve reef levels of O2. I have also read that skimmers on their own won't give you 100% O2 saturation, again I don't know how true that is but it may depend on the skimmer employed.

 

[Dana Riddle]

My understanding is that reefs are nearly always running at 100% oxygen saturation and can exceed 100% saturation on certain parts where waves crash in for instance. Perhaps somebody could confirm this.
With regards to home aquarium depending on lots of factors like stocking levels we are unlikely to achieve reef levels of O2. I have also read that skimmers on their own won't give you 100% O2 saturation, again I don't know how true that is but it may depend on the skimmer employed.

Yes, dissolved oxygen supersaturation can occur when surf is really up - there were many days when I lived in Hawaii where the ocean appeared to be filled with milk, due to microbubbles. In high light algal growths could drive O2 way up in some of the anchailine ponds (saturation at that salinity and temperature was around 7 ppm, but supersaturation was seen at ~16 ppm). I've got a Hach HQ40d data logger with a luminescence dissolved oxygen probe. It's just sitting there. I'll put it on a tank and record readings when I get back in town Sunday. Oxygen content of course depends upon many factors (temp, pressure, salinity) but boils down to oxygen demand and oxygen transfer rates.