The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[BestMomEver]

@Paul B .... I am a little over an hour from the Gulf of Mexico. I have always believed that mother nature knows best and have often fancied grabbing natural water and sand but I don't know what the protocol would be for adding to an existing tank. If I were to go grab some sand and water, would I add it gradually or just dump it in. If gradually, how much and how often? I have a 60 cube....

 

[tehmadreefer]

@Paul B .... I am a little over an hour from the Gulf of Mexico. I have always believed that mother nature knows best and have often fancied grabbing natural water and sand but I don't know what the protocol would be for adding to an existing tank. If I were to go grab some sand and water, would I add it gradually or just dump it in. If gradually, how much and how often? I have a 60 cube....

Do it gradually. I use sand from Jensen beach. A little every day.

 

[robert]

I have a 8' 400 gal with many tangs... most are long time friends. Since I infrequently add any new fish, I don't keep a quarantine or hospital setup.

When I do add a new tank member I try to select healthy fish - usually possible but not always. I feed well and frequently. I like fat and healthy fish. I feed pellets daily, nori every other day and reef frenzy a couple of time a week.

My tank has seen both ich and velvet in the past (four years ago) but I have not had a new outbreak of anything until I recently added a few smaller tangs and a gem tang from different sources without quarantine. Shortly after adding the new fish, I developed an outbreak of ich. What was significant was that ich appeared in only two of the new fish - but was evident in all of my established tank members.

I conclude that my older fish who were once immune (they had both ich and velvet in the past) were susceptible to the parasites carried in with the new fish as they had lost their immune response after not having been exposed for several years.

While good nutrition makes for healthy, happy fish it does not by itself protect against infection. A fish can and often does develop a sufficient immune response to weather an outbreak but this takes time. If the pathogen load is allowed to build up before an immune response is elucidated your fish may die.

It seems to me we are discussing two approaches. Paul seems to argue for "vaccination" through continual exposure - This works even when adding non-immune fish as the pathogen population is held in check by the inhabitants immune response. A new (non-immune) fish is benefited by the heard immunity. The downside is your inability to truly know the immune status of your occupants against an unknown (variable) pathogen.

The quarantine approach works despite your inability to truly know the immune status of your occupants against an unknown (variable) pathogen but once a pathogen is introduced - then the outcome can be disastrous as the naive (non-immune) population is decimated.

So your choice. Both approaches have advantages and disadvantages.

I personally believe "pathogen dilution" through UV/DE/ozone should always be employed whether you quarantine or not. Dilution is the one aspect of the natural environment which we all too often overlook and which is advantageous whichever approach is employed. (DE for parasites and bacteria - UV/ozone for bacteria and virus - less for parasite) Dilution tends to hold any new pathogen population in check until your fish mounts a sufficient immune response.

The good news in my case is everyone survived.

 

[PapaDragon]

Thanks for taking the time to write this @Paul B

As I've said previously, it's up to each and every person to decide for themselves how to go about keeping their fish healthy. I outline (quarantine) protocols which have worked the best for me. I also do not feel our methods are mutually exclusive, as I use many of your nutritional tips (live blackworms, fish oil, etc.) in both QT and DT. It makes all the sense in the world to build up your fishes' immunity whether they go through QT or not.

Happy New Year, my friend!

@Humblefish I agree with you about it being ultimately up to the individual reef keeper. My concern with this thread is that I fear that some people will use this no QT as justification to be lazy. I’ve been working on a new build for the past six months and even though my previous tank was run without a QT system I decided this new setup will utilize QT for fish and corals. Why am I adding this extra work? Well I believe keeping living creatures is a huge responsibility and if I can take a little extra time protect them I think we should. I do believe that immune health can be improved with good nutrition, and I will try live worms.

I would love to see a more scientific approach to this method. Great thread!

 

[robert]

What method?

Paul says "That was how I learned my method which is not really a method but a lack of a method."

What he says is essentially right no matter what you do.

Set up a tank - add your fish - feed them well.
Some may die, but those that survive will develop sufficient immunity to live through whatever they encountered.

That a sick or malnourished fish is more likely to die when challenged by disease seems obvious, so too would the corollary that a healthy well nourished fish might be more likely to survive such a disease challenge.

Where I begin to have some doubts is when Paul seems to imply that additions of NSW and the life it contains (parasites, bacteria, virus) produces a cross immunity to many of the commonly encountered pathogens in the fish trade - or - that the additions of NSW and the life it contains (parasites, bacteria, virus) suppress these commonly encountered pathogens. Here I'm not too sure I can agree fully if at all. I just don't know. Pen raised fish in otherwise natural habitats are lost to ich and velvet in the aquaculture industry. Its a problem, so I'm left with a reluctance to fully embrace his rational in this respect. I acknowledge that these pen raised fish might be fed an inferior diet, are stressed and suffer overcrowding.

Could it be that once your tank is stocked and you're not making new additions - and you don't do anything stupid and kill them some other way - you'll end up with a tank of fish that will live long and hopefully happy lives? That seems to be my experience and perhaps is a simpler explanation of Paul's success.

 

[burning2nd]

Hey paul good to see you here now

 

[Land Shark]

Remember that just because someone has time to write their hopes down on paper and sells a book, doesn’t make it true. Dilution through Ozone/UV is important and has been proven to significantly improve success/survival rates.

 

[Land Shark]

"At the heart of science is an essential balance between two seemingly contradictory attitudes — an openness to new ideas, no matter how bizarre or counterintuitive they may be, and the most ruthless skeptical scrutiny of all ideas, old and new. This is how deep truths are winnowed from deep nonsense."

 

[alton]

quar·an·tine
[ˈkwôrənˌtēn]
NOUN
1. a state, period, or place of isolation in which people or animals that have arrived from elsewhere or been exposed to infectious or contagious disease are placed.

I feel like this is what I do most of the time except for baby fish which I believe are disease resistant.

Paul this has become a very interesting thread, with many different ideas on keeping fish alive, so thank you for this. For me my QT tank can be a 29 gallon for smaller fish, or a 100 gallon Rubbermaid tub. Both are filled with my water from one or more of my three tanks and liverock from those tanks or my stash that sits in a bucket with only a bubbler until I need it again. I use a foam filter and power head along with a heater. No meds just time for them to make sure they are eating and healthy. Up until my last two fish I had about a 99% success rate. My last two fish came from my LFS half price, a Redsea Regal Angel 4” for a $100 worth of coral and a Potters angel for $50. After a 10 minute FW bath and a two hour prazi bath both fish went into the QT tank filled with established liverock. The only fish in the QT tank at the time was a pintail wrasse that I had just pulled out of my overflow on my 180 because my male flame angel did not like him. On the second day both fish where eating which I felt was because the pintail showed them how. (I got this idea from Minh) But after two weeks both fish perished a day apart. Minh thought it may have been Sepsis and something else. The only thing I knew by not adding these to my display my regulars where safe. Today the pintail lives with me in my office with a flame wrasse and happy together.

There is so much information out there including many studies that meds will cut a fishes life short.

In closing I will leave with a picture of my friend who I cared for 13 years that developed a bloated stomach, got skinny and perished. The only Copperband I owned that ate aptasia and when I needed to trap a fish he would go in immediately into the trap and take the trouble maker with him. Trouble maker went to the LFS, my buddy went back into the tank.

 

[Paul B]

You have said you dont introduce fish that are totally covered rather just ones with mild cases of parasites. I cant imagine you think it would be wise to simply pour velvet into your tank if it were possible. There is obviously a threshold. Just like in the wild. Your tank is not magic like you enjoy implying. Are the fish immune? To an extent of course. But everything has limits. They are not 100% immune to whatever they come up against.

So far they are 100% immune. If there was one case where my other fish contracted something from a sick fish I added it would not be 100% and that would make my fish "resistant". But since that has never happened I can only say they are 100% immune (so far)
I don't add a fish covered in parasites because it would be picked on and die. I would rather cure it first, if I could, then add it. But putting a fish covered in parasites into my reef will have no adverse effects as I have noted many times about fish that developed massive infections days after I added them. (shrimpfish, clown gobi, copperband etc.)

I know people who have sick fish in the past can't grasp the idea of immunity but my fish are 100% immune so far and have been for decades.
If those diseases are in your tank, the fish will be immune providing you feed as I said.

Robert states:

When I do add a new tank member I try to select healthy fish - usually possible but not always. I feed well and frequently. I like fat and healthy fish. I feed pellets daily, nori every other day and reef frenzy a couple of time a week.

That is not my method and where people go wrong and have problems. I advocate to "never" feed dry foods unless you are on vacation. Fish should have some sort of live bacteria with every meal and dry foods don't do it.
You can't say you use my method unless you use the entire thing. I hear all the time : I used Paul's method of just throwing fish into my tank with no quarantine and the tank crashed.
I am sure it did. First the fish have to be in excellent health. That means they are filling with eggs, have no missing scales, clear eyes etc. Healthy fish will also always spawn (if they have a partner) As I keep saying If you have a pair of almost anything, and they are not spawning, they are not healthy. I don't care if they are 40 years old.

@Humblefish I agree with you about it being ultimately up to the individual reef keeper. My concern with this thread is that I fear that some people will use this no QT as justification to be lazy. I’ve been working on a new build for the past six months and even though my previous tank was run without a QT system I decided this new setup will utilize QT for fish and corals. Why am I adding this extra work? Well I believe keeping living creatures is a huge responsibility and if I can take a little extra time protect them I think we should. I do believe that immune health can be improved with good nutrition, and I will try live worms.

I would love to see a more scientific approach to this method. Great thread!

I don't think my method is lazy. I think quarantine is dooming a fish to a shorter life. To use my method you need fresh foods preferably some live foods. No flakes, pellets or freeze dried. You need to keep the fish in the same health they were in the sea.
I see many tanks and I can tell from experience that most of the fish are hardly in perfect health. Living doesn't mean much if the fish is not 100% perfect.

. If I were to go grab some sand and water, would I add it gradually or just dump it in. If gradually, how much and how often? I have a 60 cube....

Adjust the salinity by adding ASW and make sure the temp is the same and dump it in.

There is so much information out there including many studies that meds will cut a fishes life short.

I agree. Most Meds are poisons and to put a fish in that that is already weak is not always the best thing.
Your experience with the copperband is typical. I don't think they live much longer than that so whatever killed him after 13 years you can attribute to old age. They have to die eventually and after so much time, they just seem to fall apart. But 13 years is an excellent lifespan for a fish most people can't keep 13 days.

Seahorses which I collected here in NY transferring eggs in a partitioned section of my reef.

 

[Paul B]

I know I keep asking but I am still curious. How many "old" tanks do we have that were quarantined where everything was quarantined and the fish are spawning and dying only of old age with no disease? The hobby has been in the US for 47 years. Where are all the old tanks that are quarantined. How many fish are dying of old age that have been quarantined? I know there has to be some because there are millions of tanks in existence.

An old clownfish is about 25, an old tang is about 12 an old seahorse is about 3, an old Bangai cardinal is about 3, an old angelfish is maybe 15 (but that depends on species, And yes, I guessed) and an old goldfish is about 40

I collected this tiny burrfish in the Atlantic and donated him to the Coney Island Aquarium in a year when he grew to 5"

 

[LovesDogs_CatsRokay]

I don't add a fish covered in parasites because it would be picked on and die. I would rather cure it first, if I could, then add it.

Isn’t curing it first essentially quarantining? What’s the difference?

 

[Paul B]

No it is not. I just treat it in copper and formalin for 3 or 4 days until most of the spots are gone. The fish is still infected but if there are no visible spots the fish has a better chance of survival and most of them do survive as parasites are very easy to eliminate. Quarantine would be keeping it separate for a long time, like 72 days which would stress that fish so much, it would most likely die. But if you put it in a natural tank with lots of hiding places, it will find a place to be alone and start to eat. Then it will be fine.
This is the only medication I have. (If I could find it) It is from the 70s and made in Brooklyn NY. It's copper/formalin. I still have a quarter of a bottle left. If I needed to cure a fish in a day, I would add Quinicrine hydrocloride with this. But I don't want to start a conversation about that because that is something I discovered many years ago and I know most people like Prizapro.

 

[Thales]

Sorry if I missed it, can we see a current full tank shot of the OP's tank?

 

[Humblefish]

@Humblefish I agree with you about it being ultimately up to the individual reef keeper. My concern with this thread is that I fear that some people will use this no QT as justification to be lazy. I’ve been working on a new build for the past six months and even though my previous tank was run without a QT system I decided this new setup will utilize QT for fish and corals. Why am I adding this extra work? Well I believe keeping living creatures is a huge responsibility and if I can take a little extra time protect them I think we should. I do believe that immune health can be improved with good nutrition, and I will try live worms.

I would love to see a more scientific approach to this method. Great thread!

It is my view that the approach outlined in the OP is not easily repeatable. At least not with tangs. Paul mentions never feeding flake/pellets, only feeding foods with live bacteria, live blackworms, collecting mud from the beach, and other eccentricities I've seen him talk about in other threads. These methods work for Paul and a handful of others, but how many mainstream hobbyists are going to take the time to do all of this? Especially in this day & age of tank automation. I've seen people take one or two things Paul does, copy it, and then wonder why their tank got wiped out by velvet. If I was going to attempt to emulate Paul's methods, I would move in with him for a month, and follow him around watching every little thing he does to his tank.

It is also my view that most people only learn by doing. If the methods that Paul (and others) advocate do not work for you, then you will eventually feel the pain of watching most of your fish die due to some disease. The operative word here is feel it. Only then do some feel gutted enough to ask themselves, "Maybe I need to go about doing this a different way?" Not a better way, just a different way.

 

[LovesDogs_CatsRokay]

Quarantine would be keeping it separate for a long time, like 72 days which would stress that fish so much, it would most likely die.

There are many methods to QT. Not everyone waits 72 days. Mostly only wait 30 I would guess or a couple weeks. And not everyone uses meds.

 

[Humblefish]

There are many methods to QT. Not everyone waits 72 days. Mostly only wait 30 I would guess or a couple weeks. And not everyone uses meds.

^^ This is an excellent point. Not every choice needs to be so extreme. There is always a middle ground. For those who do not like prophylactically using medication on fish and feel the "stress" of a bare bottom QT will kill a fish ..... Why not setup a miniature version of your DT and observe new fish in there?? If the fish looks healthy after 30 days, add him to your DT. If a disease pops up, have a small 10 gal hospital tank on standby to treat. (You can store it in your garage.) Bottom line is you are protecting the fish inhabitants of your DT from infectious diseases.

 

[robert]

In the wild, fish in breading condition and eating as you describe, die in various algal blooms all the time and in vast numbers.

In our tanks, fish in breeding condition and eating as you describe, can die from algal blooms as well if they don't have specific immunity and are challenged with a sufficient pathogenic load. Diet alone won't save them.

Three options: 1. ensure specific immunity (immunization - controlled exposure)
2. minimize pathogenic load to less than lethal levels. (dilution)
3. eliminate pathogenic exposure. (quarantine).

1 and 3 are mutually exclusive, but 2 can be combined with 1 or 3 with good effect.

Paul, didn't you advocate treating your water with Clorox a while back? If it wasn't you, my apologies, but could you explain how this fits with your method/theory/practice?

 

[dportero]

I have been following this thread, and finally got to the bottom. I am interested in this method (or lack of one) but I did not see (correct me if I’m wrong, as there are lots of posts) an outline of how to start implementing this method.

I would be interested in trying out this method, as I have a relatively new nano set up with two clowns in it. I live in Utah so there are no ways for me to access the beach like Paul has, and I do not know of a way to get fresh clams or mussels where I live.

Paul could you outline a way that a new reefer could start implementing this method, and I would be one of the followers to document it? I don’t have lots of posts, as I mainly read posts because I believe almost everything has already been answered, but I would be willing to document implementation of this method.

Thanks

 

[Paul B]

If I was going to attempt to emulate Paul's methods, I would move in with him for a month, and follow him around watching every little thing he does to his tank.

Humble, that may be a little Icky.
But anyone is welcome to come here. I give classes but you may not get credit for them because they are not exactly Liberal arts. Anything with the word Liberal in it, I don't do.

There are many methods to QT. Not everyone waits 72 days. Mostly only wait 30 I would guess or a couple weeks. And not everyone uses meds.

30 days would be much better in my view, but it wouldn't eliminate parasites if that is your goal.

Sorry if I missed it, can we see a current full tank shot of the OP's tank?

This one is 3 minutes ago.

This tank ran for 5 years in one house, then I moved and it was in the second house for 42 years, then 5 months ago I put it all in vats and moved it here to my hew house.