The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)
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Paul B
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Yes I do. I change about 40 gallons about 4 or 5 times a year. Normally I use NSW that I collect behind my house but after this sponge cleaning I filled the tank with 100% ASW which I do not like but it has no silicates in it and that sponge lives on silicates.
After I am sure there is no sponge growing, maybe in a year, I will start using NSW again.
After I am sure there is no sponge growing, maybe in a year, I will start using NSW again.
Nemo&Friends
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I do not QT either, and have no water testing equipment. No coral, and just some macro in 1 of my tank. Cannot put any macro in the other, as my rabbit fish devores it in a few minutes. I am not an expert, but have salt fish for close to 10 years and did not loose fish to disease. I do have a hippo tang for over 3 years. It does show little ich dots occasionally, but is doing well. It was the last fish added.
I like your method, as it is what I believe in for my own health. No medecine if not sick, and the least drugs, the better.
Another reasons fish die in my opinion, is often tank are too small for either the size of the fish or there are too many in the tank, leading to stress and aggression.
Plus your tank has tons of hiding places, many picture tanks I see have very few hiding holes, which also stress the fish.
I like your method, as it is what I believe in for my own health. No medecine if not sick, and the least drugs, the better.
Another reasons fish die in my opinion, is often tank are too small for either the size of the fish or there are too many in the tank, leading to stress and aggression.
Plus your tank has tons of hiding places, many picture tanks I see have very few hiding holes, which also stress the fish.
th365thli
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I'm running an ich management system in a 150g DT. I'm countering with two UV filters (90w and 40w), as well as feeding really well (LRS, live clam/oyster that I freeze, Nori, Vitachem). Heavy filtration and weekly water changes. I set it up a while ago, when I had less knowledge than I do now.
So far I only lost a Naso to ich about a month ago. My chocolate acanthurus has no signs of spots. My lavender acanthurus gets spots, but they are small and faint. Both are extremely active and eat a ton. According to some, for Acanthurus tangs it's only a matter of time before they succumb. It's been 4 months so far with no adverse signs. If anything, they are growing bigger. The lavender tail streamers are growing longer. When I first got them they had lympho and messed up fins. That's all gone now. So we'll see.
I wonder if I have a weak strain. I see spots pop up periodically, but never like in the example pictures of fish covered in them. And the spots tend to be fainter, and duller.
It would be interesting to see how long my lavender tang and chocolate tang make it for. According to some people here, it's not possible to keep Acanthurus tangs in an Ich management system. But so far optimum fish husbandry has been working for me *knocks on wood furiously*
So far I only lost a Naso to ich about a month ago. My chocolate acanthurus has no signs of spots. My lavender acanthurus gets spots, but they are small and faint. Both are extremely active and eat a ton. According to some, for Acanthurus tangs it's only a matter of time before they succumb. It's been 4 months so far with no adverse signs. If anything, they are growing bigger. The lavender tail streamers are growing longer. When I first got them they had lympho and messed up fins. That's all gone now. So we'll see.
I wonder if I have a weak strain. I see spots pop up periodically, but never like in the example pictures of fish covered in them. And the spots tend to be fainter, and duller.
It would be interesting to see how long my lavender tang and chocolate tang make it for. According to some people here, it's not possible to keep Acanthurus tangs in an Ich management system. But so far optimum fish husbandry has been working for me *knocks on wood furiously*
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I’d love to see a photo of the lavender with streamers, your tank sounds well cared for and honestly I don’t believe people who say that a tang will eventually succumb to ich. That tang has to get weakened and stressed before it truly succumbs to it.
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Paul B
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Tangs live as long as any fish if you keep them correctly.
And there lies the rub as with most fish "keep them correctly" that is the key to life.
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Paul B
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I am sorry some people can't keep them. But some people have disease problems with many fish.
th365thli
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I tried taking pictures, but LED lights and a very fast moving acanthurus tang make it hard
So I here are some videos. The tank is well stocked, but everyone gets along. I had a Humu trigger. It was a bully, so took him out. The Hippo will eventually have to move to a future 7-8 foot tank, but at its current size it's fine. It's also the biggest pig out of them all. I apologize in advance to the Tang police, they're not gonna like my videos.
Here is the Lavender. When I say "streamers getting bigger", I don't mean like the streamers a Naso tang gets lol. I don't think Lavenders get that. But they have grown and the tail is noticeably more pointy than when I first got it. It does currently have spots. But they are very faint. You can't see in the video. I'm actually not sure if it's ich. I'm 99% sure it's not velvet as I've had it for almost 4 months now. As you can see, it's active and eating.
Here is the Chocolate. This guy does not show any signs of disease. If it has spots, I can't see them against the lighter body. It came with some torn fins and big ole cauliflower lympho on it's dorsal. You can still see the divot in the dorsal, where the lympho was, but it's healed up nicely. Peep the blue eye Ctenochaetus tang in the background.
Here is a wide shot of the entire tank, as well as me feeding them Hikari Spirulina Mysis soaked in Vitachem. That Hippo just loves to eat. It's such a fat butt. Towards the end I get some action of my Red Sea Regal angel eating out of the water column. It does not like to join the initial frenzy, but it still seems to eat well out of the water column. I've had it for 11 days so far. It is getting bolder. I really hope it thrives.
In the background you might spot an Indonesian Regal. That was shipped to me by mistake, and the vendor fully compensated me. Unfortunately it was shipped in a leaky bag, and had a rough time. It mostly hides, and does not eat, in stark contrast to the Red Sea. I fear it may not make it. I don't want to pull it out and give it to someone if it's not eating. Just crossing my fingers at this point.
I have a Purple Tang i there as well, the king of the tank. *Knock on wood*, but that is one spunky fish. It was improperly shipped, the bag leaked and the salinity in there got up to 1.030g. Didn't seem to bother it. It's body is shiny. It gets spots every now and then, but mostly stays disease free. I'm not sure if all Purple tangs are like this, but you'd have to feed mine bleach to kill it.
Here is the filtration. An oversized reef octopus skimmer. I set it to the highest setting. Reef Mat 1200. This actually made a huge difference, pulls out so much crap. IceCap Algae Turf Scrubber. I keep the lights on 24/7 for max nutrient export. I have to scrape algae every week or two weeks, it is that effective. I also have two UV sterilizers. I try to run at an exposure of 270,000. And an attached refugium for additional nutrient export. Ich management requires feeding heavy, and feeding heavy requires as much filtration as you can.
And here is my 65 gallon DT, my first tank. I wish I didn't scape it like I did, with the rocks in the back. There is no way I can pull any fish out now
, they can just hide back there. It is also Ich management, in that I didn't quarantine anything. This one has absolutely no signs of disease, even on my juvenile Scopas Tang. I run a hobby grade UV for water clarity. Either I got lucky, or something else is going on. Microbiodiversity and nutrition, these are all things that help IMO. Both tanks were setup with live rock from Florida. I try to add as many inverts as I can. Some studies claim cleaner shrimp eat ich. I wonder if some snails do as well. I have a ton of Stomatella in the 65g. They scour every inch of the tank at night. Could that help against disease? There is so much in the hobby we still don't know yet.
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th365thli
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The caveat here is these tanks are still relatively young. Less than a year old. And we measure success in this hobby by years, if not decades. That's why it's so hard to get definitive answers in this hobby. Paul B, Humblefish, Jay Hemdal, have been doing this for decades, so they are invaluable resources. Will my Acanthuruses last longer? I'm not sure. What I do know is, I made the decision not to pull out all my fish and run fallow. I don't have the space, and to do so would greatly stress the fish as I'd have to tear down EVERYTHING. For now, optimum care is working. Will it stay this way? I'm not sure, ask me again in a year or two.
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Your fish all look happy and healthy from here. You may have a few to many but if they don't complain, they will be fine.
Sump Crab
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The other way to run a reef tank (No Quarantine)
I was asked by my friend Humblefish to start a thread on my practices of running a tank with no quarantine, hospital tanks, medications, dipping or almost anything else.
It is "not" just to take a fish from a store and drop it in your reef because that fish will probably die. You may not see many spots on fish in a store because just about all stores use medications in their tanks to suppress the parasites. They have to because they get new fish all the time from all over the world and they can't change all the water and sterilize their tanks in between shipments. But all fish are infected in a store and even in the sea. They swim in a soup of parasites, viruses and bacteria, some good, some not so good.
In the sea those pathogens are kept in check by each other as viruses prey on parasites and bacteria and other forces such as things exuded from corals and tend to keep everything in check. Of course they all prey on fish.
But fish have been around almost as long as those things and they evolved long ago to live in harmony with all of them. Fish eat parasites with every meal and those parasites are processed in the fishes kidney among other places and that causes the fish to exude antiparisitic and antibacterial properties in their slime. They constantly do this and it keeps parasites and bacteria from killing the fish even though some parasites will get through to sample some fish flesh.
Anyway, that is the basis for my method that I slowly learned starting in about 1973 when I had to keep fish in copper continuously as we all did. (20 pennies to the gallon) Our tanks were not reefs, we fed flakes, changed the water to much and took out the rocks and dead corals to bleach them whenever they turned green which was almost weekly. The fish were always stressed and it was hard to keep even damsels.
Then I started feeding things other than flakes, things like frozen clams, pieces of fish and live blackworms. In 7 weeks my blue devils spawned and kept spawning for 7 years. Spawning damsels is no great Whop but in those days few people could keep them alive for a few weeks.
I gradually learned that bacteria and parasites would not kill my fish as long as I didn't medicate them. It was backward thinking but remember there was no internet and I didn't even know anyone with a salt tank so I was on my own.
When I added a fish it normally would get spots and sometimes die, but most of the time the spots receded and the fish was fine and didn't get sick when I added a new fish.
That was how I learned my method which is not really a method but a lack of a method.
With my method you can not quarantine because that short circuits the process. I actually want parasites and bacteria as that is what the fish was swimming with in the sea a week before.
I just put the fish in my tank and normally the fish starts eating right away and is fine. About half the time the fish will show a few spots but they are very few and disappear in a day or two. Yes they finished their life cycle on that fish and dropped off to infect something else, but they can't because those fish are constantly exposed to parasites so they are immune.
The things I do “not” do is quarantine.
I do not ever feed dry foods such as flakes or pellets as those foods are sterile.
I do not suck every bit of detritus out of my tank
I do however always feed something with live bacteria in it such as frozen foods.
I feed whole foods with guts such as clams, mysis, mussels and I use LRS foods which is a commercial food which I consider the best. But I still want to give the fish something that I know has living bacteria in it. I try to feed a few times a week some live worms but sometimes I can’t. Where I live now I can’t get them but I do raise live whiteworms which live in dirt. I bought a few of them years ago and that batch is still living and reproducing. I like the worms because of the living bacteria in their guts and the dirt they are living in. Some people that have immune tanks never use live worms so they may not be necessary, but I use them when I can. These things need not be fed every day, but at least occasionally. But all foods should have bacteria in it and if you feed nothing but commercial food, I am not sure how much living bacteria is in that because you don’t know how old it is or what temperature it was stored at.
If you have access to a salt water beach, collect a little mud and sprinkle it around the tank. That is for bacterial diversity. If you can’t get that, you can use garden soil with no pesticides or fertilizer.
(I did not invent that, it was “Robert Straughn” The Father of salt water fish keeping.)
The idea is that I want parasites living in the tank along with the fish. They will keep reproducing and trying to infect fish but they will fail.
I know the argument that there is much more water in the sea than in a tank and the parasites are more numerous. But that is of no consequence because the fishes immune system will get as strong as it needs to be to repel parasites and the more parasites there are, the stronger the immune system.
If you quarantine fish, there will be nothing for the fish to become immune to and any slight infection will crash the tank. Fish are not delicate creatures that need coddling and they almost never get sick. They have a fantastic immune system as long as we don’t try to short circuit it.
I can’t remember the last time I lost a fish to disease but it was probably in the 80s. Virtually all of my fish only die of old age or jumping out. I do lose fish due to my stupidity like if I buy something that I can’t properly feed like shrimpfish, twin spot gobies, orange spotted filefish etc. My tank is not set up for those fish and I should not buy them. But everything else, with no exception live long enough for me to get tired of them and I give them away or they die of old age.
I do not like clownfish but one day about 27 years ago I bought a baby of what I thought was a red hawkfish. It turned out to be a Fireclown and I still have it. She also spawns a few times a week as all my paired fish do as all healthy fish carry eggs all the time.
If you have a tank full of quarantined fish, I am not sure how you could get those fish immune because that quarantining may have destroyed the immune system of those fish. It would be a long process because the fish would have to be infected, and then cured for them to become immune and you may lose some fish.
It would be much easier to start an immune tank from the start. Remember, if you see some parasites, think of that as a good thing and not something that you need to dip or treat. Yes, you may lost some fish in the beginning but your fish will become immune to just about everything and you will never need medications or disease forums. Many fish die in quarantine or right after so that is also not a panacea.
I did not mention parameters because IMO they are not that important for fish health. Corals, yes, but not fish. My nitrates were 160 for years and I never had a fish die and they continued to spawn.
This is my method which has worked well for decades and I never lose fish to disease which is something I think we all strive for.
What’s your opinion on feeding earth worms to my tank from my 100% organic garden?
th365thli
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Your fish all look happy and healthy from here. You may have a few to many but if they don't complain, they will be fine.
Thank you Paul, I'm definitely breaking some rules with my stocking. I have plans for a 7-8 foot tank, and the Hippo will most certainly be moved there, along with the Indo Regal if it makes it. Probably the bannerfish as well. But for now they are getting along.
salty joe
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Not jrain but here goes anyway, I recently added a few small earthworms and expected my fish to go nuts but they ignored them. All squiggly and jerking around and the fish ignored them!
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Sometimes fish ignore earthworms but they are fantastic food with all sorts of gut bacteria from the soil. They just never saw them so are not used to them. I used to feed earthworms to my anemones who loved them.
You can freeze them then chop them up.
I am also overstocked with 40 fish. But they mostly stay small, the few larger ones, I give away if I can catch them.
You can freeze them then chop them up.
I am also overstocked with 40 fish. But they mostly stay small, the few larger ones, I give away if I can catch them.
As you will.know Paul 6 x 1" does not equate to a single 6" fish when it comes to stocking levels (just writing this for those who don't know)
Some may consider your tank overstocked but it isn't, mine is similar. In effect your small fish have more swimming space than a few larger fish and will be all the better for it.
Some may consider your tank overstocked but it isn't, mine is similar. In effect your small fish have more swimming space than a few larger fish and will be all the better for it.
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Hi Paul B
I have read your article and it makes good reading thanks for your information a total different method that makes sense. Your not shielding your fish just building up there immune system
I have read your article and it makes good reading thanks for your information a total different method that makes sense. Your not shielding your fish just building up there immune system
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Paul B
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Nman, remember my methods are not different methods. They are the original methods. All the methods people use now that they learned for the last 30 or so years from the internet are different methods.
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